A mechanic for Back to the Light...

[Thranduil]

I've been thinking about how I'm going to do the 3rd set of my DC block, which is going to be called Back to the Light, and I've been trying to come up with a mechanic that supports multiculture and fits in with the themes that I've already laid out, so I was wondering what people thought of a keyword like:

Alliance X - (for each character you own of a different culture you exert when you play this card, its twilight cost is -X).

It's essentially a rework of toil (it could definitely have a better name though!), but do you think it's different enough to warrant its own keyword? Or should I just leave this avenue with toil and try thinking up something else?

I certainly would be making cards of this ilk (á la Magic the Gathering's sunburst mechanic):

CARDNAME
Minion • Man
Str: 9
Vit: 2
Sit: 3
Alliance 1. Traitor.
When you play this minion, you may foresee X, where X is the number of minions you exerted for this minion's alliance.
B U

[FM]

I'm not sure the idea is different enough, but it surely is being executed in better ways, so I say it's ok.

[Thranduil]

Hmm... But if it's too similar to toil, I'd rather think of a better idea.

2 open questions, just in case anyone has some ideas:

What stops you from playing multiculture (if anything)?
What incentive would make you play Shadow multiculture?

Thranduil

[ket_the_jet]

What stops you from playing multiculture (if anything)?

I don't play multi-culture for Free Peoples because outside of "splash" cards, I don't want to overextend my deck size by needing too many support cards. Aragorn, Ranger of the North and Sam, Son of Hamfast are in every deck and Legolas, Greenleaf and Faramir, Son of Denethor could be, but you need a certain amount of cards to warrant having a different culture in the deck. Plus, cards that rock rainbow fellowships are nice to avoid. Orc Insurgent is a "splash" minion example.

Think about Faramir, Wizard's Pupil. He has some nice abilities, but wouldn't you rather him just have two good abilities? Or one awesome ability that focused on one deck-type more? I can't think of ever playing Wizard's Pupil in a Rohirrim deck, so I am missing out on one third of his talent right there! Now think about Faramir, Son of Denethor. When it's late in the game and the game is on the line, he's a nice companion to throw out there. Assign him to that Witch-King or Mumakil Commander or whomever...his game text is nice and it works well.

Another example might be Gimli, Lockbearer. It's a shame that Gimli is so...bland because Gimli, Skilled Defender or Gimli, Son of Gloin or Gimli, Feared Axeman fits so much better into most decks. Granted, in expanded you can have a beefed up Gimli, but then you need his axe and helm and why not just include three copies of Shadowplay instead?

What incentive would make you play Shadow multiculture?

Most of the Shadows don't interact, and I'm fine with that. In the movie block, until Return of the King, Nazgul were nice minions to throw in every deck, because they were good support. Gollum culture is the same way.

I actually liked that about Movie Block...instead of culture, you had culture but people could play Southrons or Corsairs or Easterlings. It was pretty cool, because you could imagine, "Wow, an Easterling Captain and two Easterling Skirmishers attacked Frodo and Faramir." It's a little less fun (for me) to imagine, "Oh, cool, a Dunlending Elder happened to team up with Gollum, Dark as Darkness to attack Frodo while four Goblin Runner attack Aragorn and Boromir is fighting a Gate Troll at Shire Lookout Point." At least if you have a solid army of the same culture, your mind can think, "Well, it's just an ill-planned assault."

More thoughts, I have always seen Gandalf culture as a splash free peoples culture and the Nazgul culture as a splash minion culture.
-wtk

[ket_the_jet]

The Alliance idea reminds me of a mechanic in Versus System. There are "Support Area Conditions" (ongoing events, in the game) that may say, "Each Justice League Member is also a member of X-Men and each X-Men character is also a member of the Justice League." That way you can have Gambit team up with Batman...

...but that's the comic book world, for you.
-wtk

Edit: There are some good across-culture minions. Morgul Skirmisher comes to mind. Ulaire Attea, Keeper of Dol Guldur works well with Southrons. Desert Lord can be splashed in nearly every deck, as can Goblin Runner. But when push comes to shove, I am probably going to include four Easterling Skirmisher in an Easterling deck than four Goblin Runner.

[Thranduil]

What stops you from playing multiculture (if anything)?

I don't play multi-culture for Free Peoples because outside of "splash" cards, I don't want to overextend my deck size by needing too many support cards. Aragorn, Ranger of the North and Sam, Son of Hamfast are in every deck and Legolas, Greenleaf and Faramir, Son of Denethor could be, but you need a certain amount of cards to warrant having a different culture in the deck. Plus, cards that rock rainbow fellowships are nice to avoid. Orc Insurgent is a "splash" minion example.

Think about Faramir, Wizard's Pupil. He has some nice abilities, but wouldn't you rather him just have two good abilities? Or one awesome ability that focused on one deck-type more? I can't think of ever playing Wizard's Pupil in a Rohirrim deck, so I am missing out on one third of his talent right there! Now think about Faramir, Son of Denethor. When it's late in the game and the game is on the line, he's a nice companion to throw out there. Assign him to that Witch-King or Mumakil Commander or whomever...his game text is nice and it works well.

Another example might be Gimli, Lockbearer. It's a shame that Gimli is so...bland because Gimli, Skilled Defender or Gimli, Son of Gloin or Gimli, Feared Axeman fits so much better into most decks. Granted, in expanded you can have a beefed up Gimli, but then you need his axe and helm and why not just include three copies of Shadowplay instead?

Okay, so essentially your problem is that it's too card intensive. So what would reduce or fix this problem? Making cards with bonuses for having more cultures? Making toolbox cards that get cheaper/better with more cultures? More splashes? Or cards that help you set up?

What incentive would make you play Shadow multiculture?

Most of the Shadows don't interact, and I'm fine with that. In the movie block, until Return of the King, Nazgul were nice minions to throw in every deck, because they were good support. Gollum culture is the same way.

I actually liked that about Movie Block...instead of culture, you had culture but people could play Southrons or Corsairs or Easterlings. It was pretty cool, because you could imagine, "Wow, an Easterling Captain and two Easterling Skirmishers attacked Frodo and Faramir." It's a little less fun (for me) to imagine, "Oh, cool, a Dunlending Elder happened to team up with Gollum, Dark as Darkness to attack Frodo while four Goblin Runner attack Aragorn and Boromir is fighting a Gate Troll at Shire Lookout Point." At least if you have a solid army of the same culture, your mind can think, "Well, it's just an ill-planned assault."

Well, I would argue here that the flavour of multicultural Shadow is for things like the Siege of Gondor where you have an army of Orcs, Nazgûl, Southtrons and Easterlings (and ideally Corsairs) all working together, or the Battle of Helm's Deep where there are a bunch of Uruks plus Dunlendings. And some of them you have to be a bit abstract, just like having Elendil and Aragorn in the same fellowship is abstract, something like "what Gollum is doing here fighting Faramir is just happening to support these Morcs which are over there fighting Aragorn".

Thank you very much for your thoughts. I will certainly be doing cross-culture cards (more overt than Úlairë Attëa, Keeper of Dol Guldur) and, having established very strongly a culture's strengths and weaknesses in the first 2 sets, the 3rd will include substantial culture bleeding.

Do you have any more thoughts, or does anyone else want to aid me?

Thranduil

[ket_the_jet]

Part 1
Yeah, it does get too card intensive. I like having Frodo as my Ring-Bearer, but if I don't draw Sting or Bounder and face a swarm, I'm boned. So I pick Isildur, Bearer of Heirlooms because I play Gondor. I feel like there are kind of enough cards in general (through Mount Doom) that allow for multi-cultural fellowships, whether with sites or conditions.

I feel like, with the exception of Dagger Strike, I can't think of any event that works on multiple races. It is nice to play a few events in case you run into a Saruman's Powers or a main companion gets killed, but I don't know what events to run when I have three or four races out there.

Part 2, Shadow:
I do like multi-cultural Shadow...I just like there being separation between the groups. and is really what ruined the card game for me and why I don't play beyond movie block. I liked that you could get a Moria-style deck and "re-live" what it was like for the Fellowship to fight a swarm of goblins. But having a Ulaire Enquea, Lieutenant of Morgul helps that, and the concept of a Nazgul flying in might make sense too.

My direct wounding deck has trackers with Under the Watching Eye and Hate, but also features Gollum, Dark as Darkness and Desert Lord as well as Shotgun Enquea as "splash" cards. I have 2 They Stole It and Final Strike in there, but Gollum and a few Captured By the Ring means that I actually have six cards in there for a "splash." So if I have a hand with two Captured By the Ring and Gollum and a few Under the Watching Eye but no Orcs, that ends up being a problem (actually, the deck cycles magnificently and I have a pretty good win/loss record with it). But you get the point. One or two "surprise" characters, like the Balrog in Fellowship block, is a nice splash...but it is tough to get a full-army Dunlending/Southron deck, for example.
-wtk

Just because I am a little bitter, corsairs shouldn't exist. Or, if they do, they should all be weenies. They got scared and ran off (or got slain in the movies).
-wtk

[eomund]

I find the biggest hurt to playing multicultural decks are the lack of events and possessions that effect multiple cultures. For example, if I wanted to play a Rohan/Gondor deck (which doesn't seem completely unreasonable), the only card I can think of that would help my deck is Help in Doubt and Need.

Admittedly, I don't have an excellent directory of cards stored in memory, but I have no recollection of a simple utility card along the lines of:

Longsword
Possession • Hand Weapon
Str: +2
Bearer must be a man.

More cards along those lines, and along the lines of Dagger Strike, are (in my opinion) needed to make multiculture playable.

[Elrohir]

Hmm... But if it's too similar to toil, I'd rather think of a better idea.

2 open questions, just in case anyone has some ideas:

What stops you from playing multiculture (if anything)?
What incentive would make you play Shadow multiculture?

Thranduil

No idea what incentive mean  

Cards that stop me playing multicultural are:
Ulaire Nertea, Dark Horseman
Ulaire Lemenya, Eternally Threatening
Gorgoroth Pillager
Let Fly
Argument ready to hand

There are just a few cards for multiculture decks I would play. Like:
Might of the Elflords
Elven Supplies
Last Stand
Servant of the secret fire
The nine walkers
Gandalf, Friend of the Shirefolk
G for Grand
Sauron, Dark Lord of Mordor
Grishnakh, Treacherous Captain
Rank and file


About your alliance, maybe something like:
Alliance4: This character is strength +1 for each culture you can spot over 4.
Alliance2: You may draw a card for each culture you can spot over 2.
Alliance: The twilight cost of this card is -1 for each culture you can spot. (shadowcards must have a higher number than, due to the fellowship cultures!)

[ket_the_jet]

Longsword
Possession • Hand Weapon
Str: +2
Bearer must be a man.

More cards along those lines, and along the lines of Dagger Strike, are (in my opinion) needed to make multiculture playable.

Flaming Brand...

...but yeah, I get your point. Realms of the Elf Lords had a couple events that spotted and minions, or and [Nazgul], or [Nazgul] and , but they just weren't as good as playing just one culture!
-wtk

[Thranduil]

Hmm... But if it's too similar to toil, I'd rather think of a better idea.

2 open questions, just in case anyone has some ideas:

What stops you from playing multiculture (if anything)?
What incentive would make you play Shadow multiculture?

Thranduil

No idea what incentive mean  

Sorry - I'm quite bad at remembering that English is not everyone's first language! An incentive is something that makes you want to do something. Eg. a 20% off sale in a shop is an incentive for people to buy your stuff. So the question is: what benefits would make you play Shadow multiculture for?

Thank you everyone for your thoughts, they are most interesting!

In general, I think that spoon-feeding deckbuilders should be mainly avoided, and so I don't intend to make many cards like Treacherous Captain or the Realms of the Elf Lords cards that dictate which cultures you should play (though Hate and Anger is really awesome!). Eomund kind of hit what I'm mainly going for - tribal themes (forgive the MTG terminology but there's no better word in LotR for this!). If you had a whole host of trackers from different cultures (or besiegers or traitors etc.) and there was some good "tribal" support (so cards that support you using a particular unloaded keyword), would you use it? What about cards like:

•Siege Commander, Lieutenant of Mordor
Minion • Orc
Str: 12
Vit: 3
Sit: 4
Besieger.
When you play Siege Commander, you may take into hand an engine from your discard pile.
While you can spot 3 engines, each besieger is strength +2.
While you can spot 5 engines, each besieger is fierce.
T R 69

Spies in His Service
Condition • Support Area
While you can spot a traitor, the roaming penalty for your minions is -2.
Skirmish: Discard this condition to make a traitor strength +1 for each culture you can spot.
B R

Would cards like these lead you to multiculture Shadow? What about more subtle cards like:

Savage Strength
Event • Skirmish
Spot a minion to wound a skirmishing companion. If that companion has resistance 5 or less, wound that companion again.
L C 94

Swarms of Orcs
Event • Skirmish
Spot an minion to make minion strength +2 (or +1 for each minion you can spot if that minion is skirmishing a companion with resistance 4 or less).
L C 126

Events which only require spotting [Culture] minions, but can affect any minions. Would you play events like those if you were making a Shadow side with more than 1 culture?

[eomund]

Flaming Brand...

Wow ... I think I've been playing that card wrong for years  ... it's a good thing I never actually tried to make a Rohan/Gondor deck.

While I would use a card like Savage Strength or Swarms of Orcs in a multicultural deck, I'd want a few linear cards like Seige Commander and Spies in his Service to inspire the deck in the first place. Building a multicultural deck just for the sake of having a multicultural deck would (I think) get old after the first couple. But building a beseiger deck has as much focus as building a deck, and having the tools (like Swarms of Orcs) to build it would just be fun.

[ket_the_jet]

The first ones would make me more apt to playing multiple cultures. The second ones, while nice, still seem like they would just fit best with a deck of their own culture.

I'll be honest in that I don't pack many shadow events in my decks. Outside of cards like Whirling Strike or Red Wrath, and Hate, Captured By The Ring, and We Must Have It, I'd rather have a minion to play than be stuck with events in my hand that I cannot play.
-wtk

[Thranduil]

Okay, so thinking about the set, I don't think there's actually room for a new mechanic like alliance, so I do believe that I will be ignoring it! But, I will still be attempting to promote multiculture, just in a more subtle way. I think I'm going to take Dagger Strike and do something with that idea as well, and do a couple of other things, like promoting splashes and occasional tribal cards (though this is not a big theme of my block).

And I'm going to spoil a card, because I'm having quite a lot of fun in this now redundant thread!

•Úlairë Attëa, Khamûl
Minion • Nazgûl
Str: 12
Vit: 3
Sit: 4
Fierce. Traitor.
At the start of each skirmish involving Úlairë Attëa, you may remove to add a burden.
B U

Look at that, huh? Is that a minion with a ability? I think it might be!...

[ket_the_jet]

Hey! You stole my subtitle!

Just kidding. Sweet card. Scary to think about...
-wtk

[DáinIronfoot]

Briefly on the subject of multiculture:

I think anyone that's followed my DC sets for a while knows that I am BIG into multiculture, on both sides. But it has to make sense. A couple of the examples ket made are prime examples of why you have to be careful...or risk absolutely ruining the flavor. The new Shadow cultures still stick in my craw, too, especially and . Come on...what sense does it make to have Grima, Dunlendings, Easterlings, and the Men of Bree all in the same culture? How stupid is that?! And I HATE how the culture breaks down all the cool flavor Big D had built up with , , and then and Orcs. Those all had their own subtleties that made them great divisions of the same race, and then Decipher decided to just tear all that down. Stupid stupid stupid. And they wonder why their fanbase started to fall apart.

Anyway, there IS multiculture that makes sense. and make a rather natural pairing, for example. Elves and Dwarves make some sense. and , certainly. For Shadow, there is tons of sense in uniting and , or and , or and . Storywise, these all make perfect sense.

So, in short, having cards that unite certain cultures together are a-okay by me. I would argue against others like, say, and , or and . So I would sour on ideas like your Alliance, Thran, because they're simply too open. Something like the alliance idea someone else had a little while back (I think it was Menace) that unites certain culture together...that I would strongly endorse.

Okay, end rant. Moving on to some cards....

•Siege Commander, Lieutenant of Mordor
Minion • Orc
Str: 12
Vit: 3
Sit: 4
Besieger.
When you play Siege Commander, you may take into hand an engine from your discard pile.
While you can spot 3 engines, each besieger is strength +2.
While you can spot 5 engines, each besieger is fierce.
T R 69

Well, not a huge fan of , as I already said above. But...this ain't bad. Not too bad at all. I'm on board with this one.

Spies in His Service
Condition • Support Area
While you can spot a traitor, the roaming penalty for your minions is -2.
Skirmish: Discard this condition to make a traitor strength +1 for each culture you can spot.
B R

With it being non-unique, I'd make the roaming -1, so as to make you work a little harder for it. I also think this needs to cost . Nice overall idea, though. I forget: traitor in unbound, right?

Savage Strength
Event • Skirmish
Spot a minion to wound a skirmishing companion. If that companion has resistance 5 or less, wound that companion again.
L C 94

Not really multiculture, but okay.

Swarms of Orcs
Event • Skirmish
Spot an minion to make minion strength +2 (or +1 for each minion you can spot if that minion is skirmishing a companion with resistance 4 or less).
L C 126

Oh, I see now. They can target companions skirmishing minions of ANY culture. Gotcha. You're missing an "a" in there, but otherwise seems okay.

[Thranduil]

Briefly on the subject of multiculture:

I think anyone that's followed my DC sets for a while knows that I am BIG into multiculture, on both sides. But it has to make sense. A couple of the examples ket made are prime examples of why you have to be careful...or risk absolutely ruining the flavor. The new Shadow cultures still stick in my craw, too, especially and . Come on...what sense does it make to have Grima, Dunlendings, Easterlings, and the Men of Bree all in the same culture? How stupid is that?! And I HATE how the culture breaks down all the cool flavor Big D had built up with , , and then and Orcs. Those all had their own subtleties that made them great divisions of the same race, and then Decipher decided to just tear all that down. Stupid stupid stupid. And they wonder why their fanbase started to fall apart.

Anyway, there IS multiculture that makes sense. and make a rather natural pairing, for example. Elves and Dwarves make some sense. and , certainly. For Shadow, there is tons of sense in uniting and , or and , or and . Storywise, these all make perfect sense.

Yeah, I completely understand these points. But I think I would answer these flavour problems by saying that sometimes you have to treat the game in the abstract, like when Elendil and Aragorn are in the same fellowship. What you have to say is that there's Elendil fighting in the 2nd Age which has results that somehow help Aragorn's fellowship in the 3rd Age. Elendil and Aragorn are mechanically similar and so often lend themselves to similar decks, but you have to be abstract in interpreting the results.

Similarly, multiple Shadow cultures may be mechanically complimentary but the flavour might be problematic. What I think you have to say here is that these are 2 different groups of people that just happen to be helping each other. So you'd have something like those Orcs fighting Faramir over there are keeping him from helping his brother who is being beset by Gríma. I think this is ultimately what you have to do, partly because, as you said, the cultures changed, so while Orcs and Nazgûl always made flavour sense, Orcs and Nazgûl don't necessarily. (Incidentally, this is one problem that the tribal approach solves. You can make all besiegers make mechanical and flavour sense from different cultures, or trackers or traitors etc. And while I remember, yes traitor is unloaded DI).

So, in short, having cards that unite certain cultures together are a-okay by me. I would argue against others like, say, and , or and . So I would sour on ideas like your Alliance, Thran, because they're simply too open. Something like the alliance idea someone else had a little while back (I think it was Menace) that unites certain culture together...that I would strongly endorse.

Yes, I remembered menace's alliance and I checked it out, and it's very clever. But I don't think I'm going to do it! It's a bit narrow for what I want, I think, and you don't really need a keyword to do what he was doing in Lands of Shadow.

Anyway, thank you very much for your thoughts! I may be posting some other crazy ideas in the future here, and any other opinions on the subject of flavour or mechanics of multiculture will be greatly appreciated.

Thranduil

[Anvar]

There will always be people happy to play multi-cultural fellowships, as there have been since the beginning of the game (this is why there is vastly more punishment for rainbow FPs than shadow sides). This is due to the fact that you can start with companions in play, and they stick around for several turns. I can splash a single copy of the Long-Knives of Legolas into my rainbow deck, because I know that I start Legolas and so the card will (almost) never be a redundant draw. Compare this to splashing for a copy of Lurtz and his sword.

On the other hand, shadow cards have spotting requirements that are much harder to fulfill. So there are a few things that would make playing multi-culture shadow easier.

1] Aim for people to be playing 2-3 cultures but no more (unlike rainbow fellowships that can be up to 5 or 6 sometimes).
2] Make sure that cultures have access to card-cycling allowing them to get rid of/make use of otherwise unusable cards. Bear in mind that the average deck size may need to increase to support multi-culture play.
3] Make cards with few to no spotting requirements, especially support area conditions/possessions/artefacts that can be played straight from hand.
4] Make alternate spotting requirements (eg. spot a card, spot a minion in the discard pile etc.)
5] Have a vague plan as to which cultures overlap with which and how they might support each other. I suppose this isn't as important but is good to think about for drafting especially. What is the overlap between Uruks and Orcs? Is there one? What would a Wraith / Evil Men draft deck be trying to do?

Hope that's helpful,
Anvar

[Thranduil]

1] Aim for people to be playing 2-3 cultures but no more (unlike rainbow fellowships that can be up to 5 or 6 sometimes).

Yep, that was always my plan!

2] Make sure that cultures have access to card-cycling allowing them to get rid of/make use of otherwise unusable cards. Bear in mind that the average deck size may need to increase to support multi-culture play.

This is very interesting, and not something I had considered nor taken into account. Though, foreseeing fulfils this role reasonably well... I will probably try to make more Shadow cantrips to accommodate this (sorry for using yet more MTG terms - a cantrip is a card that has a little extra benefit tagged onto the end, normally "Draw a card").

3] Make cards with few to no spotting requirements, especially support area conditions/possessions/artefacts that can be played straight from hand.

Spotting requirements on minions is something I've essentially done away with, because otherwise drafting doesn't work. I've been trying to make events and conditions as general as possible, though I am well aware that the number of support area cards is seriously lacking compared to events. This is mainly because events are more fun to design, more fun to play and work within my aggressor Shadow theme (and toil sub-theme - toil fits much better on events than conditions), which is one of the ways I've been trying to promote large cards and multicultural Shadows. I'll give some examples of general events below, but I will have to make a conscious effort to make more conditions.

4] Make alternate spotting requirements (eg. spot a card, spot a minion in the discard pile etc.)

I've been making cards that spot [Culture] cards, especially for small cultures like or . Discard pile is an interesting avenue as it's always there. Certainly something I will be considering.

5] Have a vague plan as to which cultures overlap with which and how they might support each other. I suppose this isn't as important but is good to think about for drafting especially. What is the overlap between Uruks and Orcs? Is there one? What would a Wraith / Evil Men draft deck be trying to do?

I haven't done this as such, but I've been letting the flavour will sort this out for me. For example, if I know I'm making a Breelander, then he will automatically (if I'm doing my design job correctly) come out looking mechanically similar to a card.

Okay, so examples of how I'm trying to let rainbow Shadow grow:

Most cards only need to spot 1 thing to play, as in the examples above. Some things require nothing to play, such as:

Saruman's Craft
Event • Shadow
Engine. Toil 3.
Take a Shadow artifact, engine or spell into hand from your draw deck.
T U 48

Dismay
Event • Regroup
Toil 3.
Exert each companion with resistance 5 or less (or wound that companion if he or she is corrupted).
T U 53

Other cards are built as splashes anywhere, such as:

•Freca, Dunlending Chieftain
Minion • Man
Str: 9
Vit: 1
Sit: 4
Aggressor. Besieger. Fierce (for each aggressor assigned to a skirmish, each Shadow card is twilight cost -1).
Each time Freca wins a skirmish, you may play a minion from your hand. If you do, that minion is fierce until the regroup phase.
T C 55

•Muzgash, Orc of Cirith Ungol
Minion • Orc
Str: 7
Vit: 2
Sit: 6
Aggressor. Traitor.
Muzgash is strength +2 for each wounded minion you can spot.
L R 115

Other cards are going to be built specifically for dual culture decks, like the following subtle cards (notice that the cultures and spotting requirements are different):

CARDNAME
Event • Skirmish
Toil 2.
Spot a minion to make the Ring-bearer wear The One Ring until the regroup phase. The Free Peoples player may add a burden to prevent this.
B C

CARDNAME
Event • Skirmish
Toil 2.
Play a minion from your hand; it is strength +3 and fierce until the regroup phase.
B C