Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game

[-Enola-]

You are right, maybe we have to limit the abilities (Ring of Thror and Wrath of the Dragon). Maybe the Ring of Thror ability is too strong ? But a good way to handle it is a modification of Balin (well done ).

[Durin's Heir]

I don't think the skills of those Shadow cards should be reduced. There are more to be added to the count: William discards weapons, Demolition Troll (I love the concept sir!) will discard possessions, Bert discards allies, Yazneg discards followers ( or not), and Smaug discards almost everything.

So there are two options: to maim the discarding effect of each of those Shadow cards, or to give the FP player a card or two in the Main deck to get back those discarded cards to hand/play/draw deck. So Balin should return any FP card to the draw deck. But maybe another Dwarf of the Company should have an ability for the same objective...

Fili's text and attributes make him the most useless Dwarf companion; he has plenty of card room for another skill. Do you remember when the Mirkwood elves confiscated their weapons, and Kili Fili had knives hidden everywhere? Perhaps Kili Fili should have an active ability like this: "Manuever: Exert Fili and discard a card from hand to take a possession or artifact from your discard pile into your hand". As a maneuver action, you will have to wait until the next turn to play it... Or maybe "to play a weapon from your discard pile". It's just a suggestion, might be instead a fellowship version, or even another ability at all.

My points are two really: reduce the exertion focus from Balin, and add some usefulness to Kili. He was Thorin's Heir after all.

[-Enola-]

I'm ok to change the text of Balin for any FP card, but Kili is the strongest Dwarf when Fili is "exhausted" (we can change for "wounded").

In LOTR TCG, when a possession or condition is discarded, there are not so many ways to bring it back to the game.

I prefer a little reduction of Demolition Troll and Ring of Thror. Wrath of the Dragon seems costly.

• Ring of Thrór, Last of the Seven Rings: Cost . Artifact • Ring. Vitality +1. Bearer must be Sauron. When you play this artifact, you may take up to 2 minions from your discard pile into hand. Maneuver: Exert Sauron twice to discard a non-Ring artifact ((limit once per turn).

Demolition Troll : Cost (5). minion. Troll. Site 4. Strength 10, Vitality 3. Damage +1. Assailant. Shadow : Spot a Orc and exhaust this minion to discard a possession.

[Durin's Heir]

In LOTR TCG, when a possession or condition is discarded, there are not so many ways to bring it back to the game.

Hmmmm. No and yes. No: There are actually many ways since the first block, and most are very efficient. To mention a few, has Storm of Argument (into draw deck), Defending the Keep (into play) and "Courtesy of My Hall/Preparations" + Dwarven Foresight (into hand), has Fireworks (into draw deck) and Treebeard Keeper of the Watchwood (into play), has Ecglaf, Armory, Sword Rack, Merry Swordthain and a long etc (into play), has Dear Friends (into draw deck) but that's actually universal to any culture (thus helping and ).

Yes: Given they aren't played too often, it looks like there aren't many ways. But the usual deck builds still work without those recycling cards, due to players have the chance to pack several copies of any needed card, so they don't need to recycle them from discard pile most of those times. For instance, I've never seen a TMAYOD deck that uses only 1 copy of that key card, most use 2 or 3. Same with Galadriel LoL, Book of Mazarbul, Horn of Boromir, Gwemegil, Aragorn's Bow...

Here most non-event FP cards will have only 1 copy available. There are only 3 weapon cards in the Main deck, and 3/7 Packs provide 2 weapons bearable by Dwarves, but to be drafted first. No conditions at all. So the lack or scarceness of recycling methods will strike heavier here than in LOTR TCG. And keep in mind the Shadow discarding of FP items is stronger here than in LOTR...

I'm ok to change the text of Balin for any FP card, but Fili is the strongest Dwarf when Kili is "exhausted" (we can change for "wounded").

My proposal for Fili to replay directly from discard pile was plainly excessive. But my idea was to prevent all those exertions to fall upon Balin. The strongest Dwarf actually is and always will be Thorin, he has such a mighty text (by bearing only 1 follower he's strength 8 + that follower's help). Besides those items for him: Orcrist, the Oakenshield and likely the Ring of Thrór. The only non-Boxing Dwarf will be Thorin if the randomly chosen packs don't provide any weapon.

I think the current version of Fili is more or less useless due to the lack of necessity of an ability like his. Thorin deals with the tough guys, Dwalin can be a kamikaze against swarms, Balin recycles FP events any FP card, Nori discards Shadow possessions; they have 7 strength each so are great fighters. Kili is Greenleaf. Glóin can be a killer in emergency. Which leaves only Fili as remnant, a great warrior but only if he spots his brother in play AND exhausted (such a fragile scenario, moreover against Sauron assigning Kili to his death, or any direct wounding card like Hidden Dagger).

So I believe Fili's gametext is not bad but needs to be improved, either by making him a better killer or defender, or by making him a counter to a given aspect of the artifices and tricks of the Shadow cultures, just like Nori counters Trolls and Wargriders while Dwalin and Kili counter Moria and Spiders. So what can Fili do? There's enough card room and imagination to solve that question... Doubts? Twilight reduction? Card drawing? Skirmish pump to anyone? Wound prevention like Eowyn LoR / Gondor Will See It Done? Shadow conditions? Healing?... Fortunatley there's enough time to think of a proper skill for him.

I prefer a little reduction of Demolition Troll and Ring of Thror. Wrath of the Dragon seems costly.

• Ring of Thrór, Last of the Seven Rings: Cost . Artifact • Ring. Vitality +1. Bearer must be Sauron. When you play this artifact, you may take up to 2 minions from your discard pile into hand. Maneuver: Exert Sauron twice to discard a non-Ring artifact ((limit once per turn).

Demolition Troll : Cost (5). minion. Troll. Site 4. Strength 10, Vitality 3. Damage +1. Assailant. Shadow : Spot a Orc and exhaust this minion to discard a possession.

For all I wrote above, I think that won't be necessary. The Shadow Ring of Thrór is good as it is, and the Demolition Troll might exert as cost but exhaust itself is too much.

[-Enola-]

So ok for the new text of Balin.
For Fili, I'm also ok to change the text, but I will be a bit boring on this point. The FP cards in the main deck are pretty simple or the copies of LOTR TCG cards. So if it's ok, there will be only one single ability for his text and not too complicated .

[Durin's Heir]

So ok for the new text of Balin.

Different ideas of a skill for Fili (those are fancy names for the concepts, the subtitle won't change from "Brother of Kili"):

- Wound Prevention: I was thinking about Eowyn LoR's response wound prevention. Fili protecting his brother, his uncle and his entire folk. Besides his previous damage +1, and a little increase of +1 to a base strength of 6 (or else won't survive when you need him). That Eowyn skill is quite powerful, moreover when facing Smaug. Wound prevention is an aspect that wasn't present in any card except for the Oakenshield.

•Fili, Brother of Kili . Companion • Dwarf. Strength 6, Vitality 3. Damage +1. Response: If a companion is about to take a wound, exert Fili and add to prevent that wound.


- Direct Skirmish Help: Fili exerting to make another companion strength +2.

•Fili, Brother of Kili . Companion • Dwarf. Strength 6, Vitality 3. Damage +1. Skirmish: Exert Fili to make Bilbo or another companion strength +2.


- Encourager of Surviving: "Skirmish: Exert a Dwarf (or discard a card from hand) to make that Dwarf strength +1". I know, that text was discarded from the Oakenshield...

•Fili, Brother of Kili . Companion • Dwarf. Strength 6, Vitality 3. Damage +1. Skirmish: Exert a Dwarf (or discard a card from hand) to make that Dwarf strength +1.


- Upgraded Fili: Or a simple upgrade of the original version: "While you can spot Kili, Fili is strength +2 (or +3 if Kili is exhausted)". Not my favourite, as it doesn't offer anything but another warrior with good base attributes.

•Fili, Brother of Kili . Companion • Dwarf. Strength 5, Vitality 3. Damage +1. While you can spot Kili, Fili is strength +2 (or +3 if Kili is exhausted).



I will try to think about other options using simplicity. You are very right about that: Main Deck cards must have simple skills and simple wording for those skills.

If there wasn't another idea to be added, I'd vote for the Wound Prevention.

[-Enola-]

Ok for the Wound Prevention, but I want to keep Fili as a cheap Eowyn with strength 5 (like his brother). Kili and Dwalin are cheap Legolas Greenleaf and Aragorn ROTN.

I don't know if adding rather than isn't more balanced ?

Since the main deck has been often tested, I will discuss about that with the playtesters. Do you think we need another modifications on the main deck or the first Shadows packs ?

[-Enola-]

Here is the two other Shadows.


http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/New_Shadows/Bolg_Commander.png
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/New_Shadows/Orkish_Pursuer.png
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/New_Shadows/Fifth_Army.png
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/New_Shadows/Orkish_Bow.png
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/New_Shadows/Hidden_Attack.png
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/New_Shadows/Morgul_Arrow.png

http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/New_Shadows/Azog_Commander.png
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/New_Shadows/Wolves_Army.png
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/New_Shadows/Goblin_Vanguard.png
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/New_Shadows/Demolition_Troll.png
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/New_Shadows/Vicious_Warg.png
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/New_Shadows/Dark_Bats.png
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/New_Shadows/Stone_Giants.png


I'm discussing with the other playtesters about the Balin and Fili changes. If you can send me all the Nazgul pictures, I will start the Nazgul pack.

Enjoy .

[Durin's Heir]

Ok for the Wound Prevention, but I want to keep Fili as a cheap Eowyn with strength 5 (like his brother). Kili and Dwalin are cheap Legolas Greenleaf and Aragorn ROTN.

I don't know if adding rather than isn't more balanced ?

I know Dwalin and Kili are "cheap" versions of Greenleaf and Aragorn RotN. And Aragorn RotN (or Aragorn Heir of Elendil) along with Eowyn LoR is a good combo: you exhaust Aragorn and prevent the otherwise lethal wounds with Eowyn.

I believe he can be strength 6 and be "cheaper than Eowyn" by adding instead of , and protecting only Dwarves (excluding Gandalf and Bilbo). But the strength reduction would be pretty troublesome, both in gameplay and story representation.

Gameplay: The problem with making Fili weaker than Eowyn LoR is that a 5 strength guy is very easy to overwhelm and he'll be a Boxing Dwarf most of the times. Eowyn can bear any possession you pack in the deck: a mount, a hand weapon, a ranged weapon, an armor; so she might end up with 10 strength, dmg +1 (+ the exertion of the mount). Here Fili has nothing but only 3 followers for the whole group, due to Orkish Marauder. The Marauder is pretty strong.

Story: We might study a bit of Dwarvenology to put things in the right context. Indeed Tolkien depicted Dwarves as the strongest of the Free Peoples, except only for Ents. They exceled in respect of weapons, crafting the best weaponry and wielding those with unequaled skill. In the last movie they carried great pieces of rock with their bare hands (and if Tolkien were alive I know he wouldn't disagree with PJ in that specific aspect).

When Thorin went to the battlefield and decided to assault Ravenhill he picked his best warriors with him: Dwalin, Fili and Kili. Fili and Kili were trained in weapons since their early childhood as Heirs of Durin's Folk, by the other Heirs of Durin's Folk: strong and experienced veterans of the War of Dwarves and Orcs. That counts Thorin, Balin, Dwalin and Glóin at least.


So Fili should be strength 6, or strength 5 but make Fili and Kili gain +1 strength when both are present: "While you can spot Kili, Fili and Kili are strength +1." That would make them stronger when they are part of a team and not only splash expendable companions, also highlighting their unity as brothers. Maybe both should have that text, to make them strength 7 vitality 3 and either archer or damage +1. Great warriors worthy of using their companion slots (6 is the safe count, including Thorin, Bilbo and very often Gandalf). Think about this addition:

Fili: Strength 5, Damage +1. While you can spot Kili and he is not exhausted, Fili and Kili are strength +1.
Kili: Strength 5, Archer. While you can spot Fili and he is not exhausted, Fili and Kili are strength +1.

Since the main deck has been often tested, I will discuss about that with the playtesters. Do you think we need another modifications on the main deck or the first Shadows packs ?

Hmmmm, I've been thinking the same for some time, because the strength of the new Shadow Packs apparently overcomes by far the older ones... So the older packs might need to be strenghtened.

A way of reducing the proportional strength of the new Shadow Packs is to increase the strength of the Main Deck in both sides. But don't know with certainty if it's a good idea.

[-Enola-]

The new Shadows are only proposed mechanisms, we have to evaluate the strength of them after some tests.
I prefer to reduce the strength of these new Shadows than increase the strength of the previous cards. The main deck and the first Shadows are now approximatively balanced.

Ok, Fili and Kili will be just strength 6, and it will be ok.
Gloin will probably have a strength +3 bonus (instead of +2).

[Durin's Heir]

I prefer to reduce the strength of these new Shadows than increase the strength of the previous cards. The main deck and the first Shadows are now approximatively balanced.

That's true, that balance doesn't need to be spoiled.

Ok, Fili and Kili will be just strength 6, and it will be ok.
Gloin will probably have a strength +3 bonus (instead of +2).

That solves in a good extent a part of the Boxing Dwarves problem. But the other part I believe is the Marauder blocking more than 3 followers... and that has the purpose of preventing long maneuver phases. How to equilibrate both needs?

Kili and Dwalin are cheap Legolas Greenleaf and Aragorn ROTN.

I don't know if Dwalin should be called a "cheap" version... He was nothing less than a Dwarf, a Longbeard (their strongest kind), a Heir of Durin (even stronger) and a veteran of the bloody War of the Dwarves and Orcs (and probably fought too in the Battle of Dale against the Easterlings). Who lived to be 340 years old. Who buttheaded orcs bearing helmets with his bare forehead! Toughest amongst the toughest.

Dwalin is damage +1, so he can kill a minion while Aragorn would just push it back. I believe Dwalin might be strength 8 without generating a big imbalance, as far as his vitality is always no more than 3. As his twilight cost is 3, he won't be present in any clever starting fellowship and that's a point to consider.

Here is the two other Shadows.

I'm discussing with the other playtesters about the Balin and Fili changes. If you can send me all the Nazgul pictures, I will start the Nazgul pack.

Enjoy .

The picture for the Demolition Troll should be the one who knocks down the wall of Dale with his head.... (it appears at 1:13:43, I'm not proud of it but downloaded for this project's purpose)

Good pictures there. But the themes of the Swarm Pack are worrying me a little since the start, and if I've said nothing yet is because The Nazgul Pack of the Beatdown one was worked first but the details are still unfinished. So the Beatdown is unfinished as a whole.


- The Nazgul culture:

There are two main issues with this culture: scarceness of cards per player and the high site number. To put those two points in the proper perspective we need to look at another culture with clue similarities to the Nazgul: being a completely new culture with no support at all from the Main Deck and having a total of only 15 available cards to stand on its own. That is the Troll culture. We need to understand how it works in despite of those weak points. And then replicate those points with The Nazgul.

1. Troll culture consists of only 3 unique Trolls, having each 3 copies to be drafted. Which means that if there are 2 players only and the distribution were regular, each player would have 4 or 5 minion cards. Which is very small. So to counter that shortage those minions need to be replayed from discard over and over again. Therefore Troll Campfire is the key card of the culture. The cost of replaying them needs also to be quite low.

So the Nazgul need to have a mechanism to be replayed, and unlike Trolls that mechanism can't come from support cards and instead must be present in their own gametext.

2. That scarcity of cards is also countered by the high impact each of those minions provide by itself. They are quite disruptive: they are strong and hard to kill, and fight twice. And they are pretty cheap: only and they never roam. The pumps and tricks are powerful too: Troll Knife is pretty destructive, while Bert protects the precious Troll Campfire, William block followers and Tom turns each victory into another potential victory.

They are cheap; they never arrive late to the party by their site number of 2. Nazgul are expensive and even more if they roam until 5. Trolls are strong and disruptive. Nazgul aren't too strong except for the Witch King and Attea, they aren't too disruptive and also don't have room for support cards to pump them or replay them. Nazgul are fierce and that's a good point to keep, but much must be modified until they can stand on their own.



My general idea is to keep the site 5 but reduce the twilight cost of each by 2, and then to replay them each should have a skill: "You may remove to play this minion from your discard pile". Another alternative is to keep the LOTR TCG costs, but add this instead: "You may play this minion from your discard pile"; therefore the Witch King would cost 10 until 4, and since 5 strike over and over again by paying 8. And it's shorter. The high site number with the same LOTR TCG costs would allow the Company to set up before The Nazgul hit them repeatedly...

I know you are trying to bring them back to the draw deck, but drawing them again is a thing that might not happen at the proper time. Or not happen at all if the Dwarves move fast enough. So I firmly believe it must be a mechanism to replay them directly, but unlike Troll Campfire must be in their text.

Disruptive skills should be added in the small remaining room.

[Durin's Heir]

If you can send me all the Nazgul pictures, I will start the Nazgul pack.

I've only found this in a good resolution:
http://www-images.theonering.org/torwp/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/BotFATrailer30.jpg

which appears here:
http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2014/11/10/94236-torns-final-frame-by-frame-analysis-the-hobbit-the-battle-of-the-five-armies-main-trailer/6/

That page is of analysis of the Trailer. There are good speculations, like the Nazgul being seen clearly be the effect of the Three Rings. The statue seems to be headless and holding in its hand a Palantir-shaped stone...

Clockwise (from up to right), the 3rd Nazgul is the Witch King. It can be deduced from the fact that Nazgul stands at the middle and in front of the row when the Nine are brought back by The Eye, so he must hold a hierarchy position amongst them. The Witch holds a long non-thorned mace, or perhaps a Staff...

Anyway, the best pictures of a Nazgul are in AUJ, when Radagast fights the Witchie... bearing Khamul (Ulaire Attea)'s crown. .



EDIT: I found a possible change to Orkish Marauder to reduce the limitation it exerts on the Company. Change the first paragraph to "Maneuver: Spot 4 attached followers and exhaust this minion to exhaust a companion". By refering solely to attached followers, it would allow to play each single follower and then select what should be attached given the current needs. Battle of Azanulbizar might allow the FP player to cripple the use of this Orc's skill, but it's a non-unique and cheap Orc...

I think it solves the problem.

[-Enola-]

I prefer to keep Dwalin at 7, I'm not sure about bringing Kili and Fili at strength 6. I made a test yesterday and with 5, they are both real pains.
Ok for the wound protection of Fili and the bonus +3 of Gloin.

I will see the other playtesters thursday, so we will discuss about all these.

I'm not a big fan of this new Orkish Marauder, because, when he will not be in the game, it will still be like the crazy "Horn filter deck" in LOTR TCG. But I will consider your proposition.

Thank you a lot for your ideas.

[-Enola-]

I directly made the cards, even with bad pictures. I will wait for the HD movie to have them in a good quality picture.

I hope I solve a bit of the problem of cost and replay :

http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/New_Shadows/The_Witch_King.png
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/New_Shadows/Attea.png
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/New_Shadows/Toldea.png
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/New_Shadows/Enquea.png
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/New_Shadows/Cantea.png
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/New_Shadows/Nelya.png
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/New_Shadows/Nertea.png
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/New_Shadows/Otsea.png
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/New_Shadows/Lemenya.png


Since they have all the same ability, I try this new ability

http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/New_Shadows/Otsea_Resurrect.png

[Durin's Heir]

I'm not a big fan of this new Orkish Marauder, because, when he will not be in the game, it will still be like the crazy "Horn filter deck" in LOTR TCG. But I will consider your proposition.

I don't see the connection between the Horn Filter deck and this Orkish Marauder. As far as I know, the Horn Filter plays a lot of cards directly from the draw deck and allows that way for superb Shadow hands. The abuse of followers is the lesser benefit, and most of the abuse happens due to the aid cost in LOTR TCG often is merely "Add X twilight" (here followers need to exert, add doubts, discard specific cards from hand...). And I agree we must prevent any abuse and Orkish Marauder is a good way to punish it. I'm only trying to change the way it punishes the follower abuse.

Marauder will be in the game to limit strongly the abusive use of followers by using 2 card slots. It can be replayed with Host of Thousands, Hatred Rekindled and site 9, so 2 slots are enough for a constant threat. And even can be increased to 3, I have no problem about that.


What I meant with the proposal is to cause fear of "using" simultaneously 4 followers, just as Greed or Shotgun Enquea induce fear of "using" 6 or more companions. But we need to understand this essential difference between the "use of a companion" and the "use of a follower": 1. Companions: The way of using a companion is by playing it and keeping it alive on the board. 2. Followers: They don't do anything by just staying on the board, they need to be transferred to induce any effect on the game. That's quite different.

Current: "When you play this minion, spot 4 followers to exhaust a companion".
Proposal: "Maneuver: Spot 4 attached followers and exert this minion to exhaust a companion".


The proposal focuses on the "attachment/use" of more than 3 followers. So the FP player will still use solely 3 followers without punishment, but now will have the chance of having more than just 3 followers in play to choose up to 3 to use. That's quite important given the wide different functions each different Dwarf follower covers. Sometimes you will need to prevent overwhelmings (Dori) or wounds (Bofur), or to heal those wounds (Óin); sometimes you will need to kill a minion at once (Bombur and/or Beorn) or discard a condition (Bifur), or even to draw faster (Ori) to set up or due to desperate situations... They are all needed at different moments of the game. followers worsen the situation. So we need to ditch that crippling of only 3 followers on the board.

There won't be that Boxing Dwarves problem anymore if you take this proposal. Dwarf followers will be able to support Dwarf companions given the specific needs of the moment, without such risk of Marauder exhausting your key Dwarf. Followers give strength and useful skills, but must be payed each turn; weapons are paid only once and give more strenght. So I believe it might be a good solution to that old problem.

I prefer to keep Dwalin at 7, I'm not sure about bringing Kili and Fili at strength 6. I made a test yesterday and with 5, they are both real pains.
Ok for the wound protection of Fili and the bonus +3 of Gloin.

I will see the other playtesters thursday, so we will discuss about all these.

Great for Glóin due to an exertion is not a small cost. If the Orkish Marauder proposal is taken, the Sister-Sons of Thorin will be enough with strength 5. And Dwalin too with 7...

And I'm really glad to hear that Fili and Kili are real pains, be they strength 5 or 6. That's the way the Sons of Durin should always be!

Thank you a lot for your ideas.

You are welcome, my dear fellow!