Next Updates for the Hobbit Draft Game

[-Enola-]

I understood all this. But the effect is a long maneuver phase due to a high number of followers. It doesn't depend on the number of attached followers, but on the number of followers in play. The number of choices the Free Peoples player has (like in the Horn filter game) could take a really long time ("Will I transfer this follower ? And this one ? ....").

Maybe we can add a way to avoid this problem (but the text is too long, 4 lines + the rest of the text) :

When you play this minion, spot 4 followers to exhaust a companion. The Free Peoples player may discard a follower to prevent this.

[Durin's Heir]

When you play this minion, spot 4 followers to exhaust a companion. The Free Peoples player may discard a follower to prevent this.

That's actually better than the current but far from solving the issues. The problem is it may be replayed very easily. Hatred Rekindled, Host of Thousands, Site 9, Ring of Thrór and Troll Campfire. Some of your Nazgul return to hand an Orc in Shadow phase and thus you can replay it. It's non-unique also. So you will end up discarding each follower over 4...


Most followers in Horn Filter decks in LOTR don't require to exert, add doubts, discard a card of a specific culture to be attached (...they just add ). Those requirements limit the chances you have to effectively use a given follower (if you don't have a card in hand or if you are in trouble facing Gollum or the Smaug conditions, you won't have to decide whether to use or not Gwaihir and Bofur respectively). And when those LOTR TCG followers require to add burdens, threats or wounds, there are really abusive ways to remove them...

Much more importantly, in LOTR TCG there aren't many ways of countering the FP when using followers, and most or all of them may be triggered by the Shadow player by packing Saruman, Servant of Sauron in case he/she wants to (ab)use them. So the Shadow player will strike you with those follower-counters be it you play followers or not. LOTR TCG doesn't have your Orkish Marauder nor my version, to counter followers. So they tend to attach any number of followers they want to and think only about twilight for a second move, or about not exceeding an amount of burdens they'll reap later.


In the Hobbit Draft Game there are 6 to 8 FP followers, and each is unique. You have to draw them (or Eagles Are Coming) first to play them; no Horn to filter here. Then you have to be able to pay their very specific costs. And then comes the Marauder to limit the number you may attach (by your way, mine or any we may think of later). I don't think there's too much risk of prolonged maneuver phases. That's my theoretical opinion, I'd playtest it if I could .

Thanks for your patience sir.

[-Enola-]

Maybe the limitation has to be placed on Yazneg : "(or discard 2 followers if you can spot 5 followers)"? We have to think about all this.

What do you think about the Nazgul cards ? I know that their powers are a bit strong, but we have to make a balanced cost for the "Resurrect" ability.

[Durin's Heir]

What do you think about the Nazgul cards ? I know that their powers are a bit strong, but we have to make a balanced cost for the "Resurrect" ability.

I like the concept of a "Resurrect" keyword. As a new loaded keyword, it will require to always explain in italics and parenthesis the effect is has on the game, so it can't be useful to reduce the length of the text. But can be quite useful to label a game mechanic for an easier recognition to anyone: developers, new players and experienced LOTR TCG players.

But in my opinion the twilight reduction is clearly overpowered. That can be compensated by twilight adding skills in some Nazgul; or by a reduction of 2 in each Nazgul's twilight cost (given the increment of 2 in the site number). So the number X in "Resurrect X" might be changed from reducing in X the twilight cost to exerting X minions to resurrect that specific minion. I think that will be more equilibrated.

"Resurrect X. (You may exert X minions to play this minion from your discard pile.)"
Without the twilight reduction it's way shorter, and that's very important to these new Nazgul. And as a keyword, it may be included in the same line as the "fierce" keyword (remember minions with "Damage +1. Fierce."), and thus you can save much more card room.


The specification of only minions to exert will be a big problem: if you don't have any minion in hand, you won't be able to resurrect anyone in the discard pile. That doesn't occur in the Troll Culture, and it's critical given the lack of cards to include in the deck. There's no other mechanism of playing minions than drawing them first, so that will happen quite often. So I'd eliminate it.

Then the Orcs in the Main deck would serve as exertion material, just like they do as discarding material to play Trolls. If needed, a specification of culture, race or a specific minion may be added after the X.

"Resurrect X. (You may exert X minions to play this minion from your discard pile.)"
"Resurrect X. (You may exert X minions to play this minion from your discard pile.)"
"Resurrect - Sauron X times. (You may exert Sauron X times to play this minion from your discard pile.)"


"Retrieve" keyword.

Let's think about an additional change. By now it's an Ad Hoc keyword for Nazgul only, but the way it works has been seen in 2 previous cards: Smaug's Dissension and Gollum's If He Loses. Those are events and events can't resurrect, so a more universal word may be used: Retrieve.

Dissension:
"Retrieve - Smaug twice. (You may exert Smaug twice to play this event from your discard pile.)"
If He Loses:
"Retrieve - Gollum twice. (You may exert Gollum twice to play this event from your discard pile.)"
Ulaire Otsea:
"Retrieve - 2. (You may exert 2 minions to play this minion from your discard pile.)" 2 Orcs, 2 Nazgul, Sauron and an Orc... any 2 minions.

As such, it might even be used by future new FP cards (in an Extension) or by new Shadow cards. Perhaps some Sauron cards like Danger Wrapped In Shadows or the Ring of Thrór will benefit from this new keyword...

[-Enola-]

And as a keyword, it may be included in the same line as the "fierce" keyword (remember minions with "Damage +1. Fierce."), and thus you can save much more card room.

Not for specific keyword like in 11R226, and other cards in sets 11-19. The ability have to be explained in all cards (btw I will add this for Aid, but only for the Dwarven followers).

Yes, I was thinking about a mechanism, which can use the Orcs in the main deck. So X minions is good, but maybe we also need a twilight reduction ? Maybe only in the text of the Nazguls, not in the ability ?


I don't think we have to bring a new keyword for only 2 event cards, and I prefer to keep the Resurrect ability for all Nazguls. We will also test the Ring of Thror.

[Durin's Heir]

Not for specific keyword like in 11R226, and other cards in sets 11-19. The ability have to be explained in all cards (btw I will add this for Aid, but only for the Dwarven followers).

Hmmm, you are right, as far as the keyword needs to be explained. Ok for the explanation in the Dwarven followers from the Main deck, as Main Decks or Starter Decks serve some pedagogical functions. Lurtz Servant of Isengard doesn't belong to Starters but to Booster Packs, and doesn't explain the Archer keyword like Goblin Marksman does. So Roäc, Thráin, Beorn, Gwaihir, Old Thrush wouldn't need to explain.

I don't think we have to bring a new keyword for only 2 event cards, and I prefer to keep the Resurrect ability for all Nazguls. We will also test the Ring of Thror.

The idea is to create only 1 keyword for both effects. You can Retrieve both an event and a servant (and Sauron can retrieve a Dwarven Ring), but you can't Resurrect events (or Rings). The way I described the Retrieve keyword allows to perfectly absorb the Resurrect one, and that was my intention. Instead of 2 events using it, would be 2 events and 9 Nazgul, and perhaps some Orcs of the new Swarm Packs too.

Yes, I was thinking about a mechanism, which can use the Orcs in the main deck. So X minions is good, but maybe we also need a twilight reduction ? Maybe only in the text of the Nazguls, not in the ability ?

The Resurrect/Retrieve ability is something they lack in LOTR TCG. And they lack too the higher site disadvantage. Perhaps the rule should be the following: for each exertion, the twilight cost is reduced by 1.

General rule:
"Retrieve - X. (You may exert X minions to play this card from your discard pile with twilight cost -X.)"

The Witch King, for instance:
"Retrieve - 3. (You may exert 3 minions to play this minion from your discard pile with twilight cost -3.)"
So he'll cost only 5 from discard pile, and 3 exertions aren't a small cost really. You can exert minions to get fresh Nazgul from discard, and then exert those Nazgul to retrieve new ones. Number and strenght, but vulnerable to wounds (Kili, Dawn Take You All, losing skirmishes against non-damage bonus defenders)...

I like that kind of reduction.

[Durin's Heir]

There's an important line that needs to be added to some of the Nazgul:

- "Wise allies may be assigned to skirmish minions".

But there are 2 ways to make it shorter:

- "Wise allies can be assigned to minions."
- "Wise allies can be assigned to Nazgûl."

The long way "assign this minion to skirmish a companion" is used in cards of the 1st block like Ulaire Toldea 1R236, but cards of RotK Block like Gorgoroth Assassin say instead "assign this minion to a companion". So you can erase that word and perhaps reduce the lines it uses from 2 to 1. And "can" is a little bit shorter than "may", in case it helps. "Nazgul" is much shorter than " minion".

For the Nazgul, that line will be quite important.

Maybe the limitation has to be placed on Yazneg : "(or discard 2 followers if you can spot 5 followers)"? We have to think about all this.

I believe a playtest will be necessary to determine if having more than 3 FP followers in the board generates any considerable delay in the game (they must be drawn to hand, played, and then their specific cost must be paid). And YES, I like that idea on Yazneg as he's specialized in discarding followers.

An important point regarding development of followers: never should a FP follower just "Add " to be transferred.

[Durin's Heir]

Another way of reducing the twilight cost of The Nazgul is to directly include it in the text of some of them.

- "The twilight cost of each Nazgul is -1".
- "Each Nazgul is twilight cost -1".

If 1 or 2 Nazgul have that small line added, then the wiser way of retrieving Nazgul would be to Retrieve or play from hand those Nazgul first, and then to Retrieve/play from hand the rest.

That's exactly the opposite of a Shadow action to add twilight, dependant on the number of or minions you can spot.

- "Shadow: Exert this Nazgul (or remove 2 doubts) and spot X or minions to add ".
- "Shadow: Exert 2 Nazgul, remove a doubt and spot X or minions to add ". Or something similar.


It would be very funny and powerful to have those 2 skills present amongst the Nine... I'd vote yes.

[-Enola-]

Ok I will talk with the other players tis evening. Thank you for your ideas .

[Durin's Heir]

Ok I will talk with the other players tis evening. Thank you for your ideas .

It's an honour sir! I wonder what ideas, experiences and possibly conclusions you have reached...

I was thinking about the cost reduction in the Retrieve or Resurrect keyword. I believe it's well equilibrated now (X exertions to play a card with cost -X), as the Nazgul pack is meant to Beatdown and not to Swarm. When you resurrect/retrieve a Nazgul by playing 2 or 3 exertions, you get that Nazgul (cheaper by or ) and those 2 or 3 minions too, and that might generate a swarm at some point. So we need to be careful to not reduce too much the cost of the Nazgul, or to increase the cost reduction this new keyword provides.

Just thoughts. I'm waiting to hear what you have in mind.

[-Enola-]

I will probably go for these updates

- Kili and Fili are strength 6.
- Fili has the ability of Eowyn, LoR (Response : If a companion is about to take a wound, exert Fili and add (1) to prevent that wound.)
- Gloin has a strength +3 bonus.
- The word Resurrect is far better for the Nazguls (it's more thematic). We are not sure about the ability, here is an exemple
Resurrect - X : During the Shadow phase, you may exert a minion twice to play this minion from your discard pile; Its twilight cost is -X.
(But this is a 4 text-line on a card )

- The Orkish Marauder is great, and we don't want too many followers at the same time, maybe something like
When you play this minion, you may spot 4 followers to make the Free Peoples player exhaust a  companion.

- Gandalf, Friend of Thorin : If Gandalf is skirmishing, ...

Is this ok ?

[Durin's Heir]

I will probably go for these updates

- Kili and Fili are strength 6.
- Fili has the ability of Eowyn, LoR (Response : If a companion is about to take a wound, exert Fili and add (1) to prevent that wound.)
- Gloin has a strength +3 bonus.

Proper strength to the Sons of Durin! Great!

- Gandalf, Friend of Thorin : If Gandalf is skirmishing, ...

As far as the card room allows, it might be a good addition. But I don't see it as a necessity.

- The word Resurrect is far better for the Nazguls (it's more thematic). We are not sure about the ability, here is an exemple
Resurrect - X : During the Shadow phase, you may exert a minion twice to play this minion from your discard pile; Its twilight cost is -X.
(But this is a 4 text-line on a card )

Hmmm, actually the "Retrieve" keyword to label that characteristic in Dissension and If He Loses is completely unnecesary . So OK for it to be named Resurrect.

- Resurrect - X . (During the Shadow phase, you may exert a minion twice to play this minion from your discard pile; Its twilight cost is -X.)

The problem with only minions was described previously: you need to have a Nazgul in hand to play other Nazgul; there's not a single way of playing from discard a Nazgul if you lack one in play, so if you run out of Nazgul in hand you will have to wait until you draw another one IF there is any in draw deck (or play Ring of Thrór, or be at site 9) to continue the game with the culture. Not viable. So I'd remove the culture specification.

Besides, it doesn't need to specify the Shadow phase, as non-events cards can only be played in that phase unless a card allows to do so in other phases.

- Resurrect - X . (You may exert a minion twice to play this minion from your discard pile; Its twilight cost is -X.)

I'd prefer to exert X minions than to exert a minion twice. Small Nazgul should require only 1 exertion to be resurrected (and -1 = is a good cost), while big ones like the Witch King or Attea should reqire not less than 2. A fixed cost reduction of X independant of the number of exertions is in my opinion dangerous, the Witch King shouldn't really reduce his cost to as in the current version. This shouldn't be a Swarm culture, but only Beatdown.

- Resurrect - X . (You may exert X minions to play this minion from your discard pile; Its twilight cost is -X.)

That may be written in an even shorter way:

- Resurrect - X . (You may exert X minions to play this minion from your discard pile with twilight cost -X.)

That's the shortest version I can suggest by now. And preserves the cost-effect-viability balance I try to include.

- The Orkish Marauder is great, and we don't want too many followers at the same time, maybe something like
When you play this minion, you may spot 4 followers to make the Free Peoples player exhaust a   companion.

I still think the specific Aid cost will naturally limit the total transferrable followers, and most if not all of them will be needed at different times of the game. 3 only is too low, and renders the followers to little use. I'd raise that punishment trigger from 4 to 5, adding the specification of followers (the Orc pack was pursuing only the Dwarven Company, and actually got terrified when they knew Beorn was near)...

When you play this minion, you may spot 5 followers to exhaust a companion.

The Shadow player chooses who gets exhausted. 4 or less followers would be then the safe ground. Which still need a very specific and somewhat costly aid cost.

[-Enola-]

Ok for the Orkish Marauder, but I prefer a stronger limitation with
When you play this minion, you may spot 4 followers to exhaust a companion.

So Beorn, Gwaihir and Old Thrush will not be affected .

[Durin's Heir]

Ok for the Orkish Marauder, but I prefer a stronger limitation with
When you play this minion, you may spot 4 followers to exhaust a companion.

So Beorn, Gwaihir and Old Thrush will not be affected .

Much better than the current. So the FP player will have to choose well the Dwarf followers to have in the board. But there isn't a simple way for the FP player to discard a FP follower, there's Nori but that's after the Shadow phase effect of the Marauder and requires 2 exertions... So a follower discarding option might be a good altenative to add.

When you play this minion, you may spot 4 followers to exhaust a companion. The Free Peoples player may discard a follower instead.

In absense of that discarding alternative, after playing the 3rd Dwarf follower the FP player will have to either refrain from playing a Dwarf follower he/she needs, or allow the Shadow player to easily exhaust his/her companions...

Hatred Rekindled and Host of Thousands will ensure the Marauder will be played and replayed often. The FP player will have to move through some sites in order to know what strategy the Shadow player will bring, and therefore what followers will need to counter it. Discarding them is a necessity then, if there's a punishment.


By the way, the culture specification kills a second bird with that stone: if there will be Shadow followers in an Extension, the Marauder would need to change it's text to not spot Shadow followers as trigger. Bravo!

I've got some strong ideas for Shadow [Dale] followers at least: Alfrid Lickspittle and Braga. Besides the Elven Shadow followers: Thranduil and Legolas...

[-Enola-]

This text is a bit long. I prefer the one without an exit.

The FP player has to play the right followers for the match-up, other followers also help Oin or Ori to be transferred. At site 9, all followers can be transferred to Bilbo to be sure to win.

There is also Dain (but only in a FP pack). Maybe change the cost of a card with discard a follower ?