V1: Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor

[hrcho]

• Tales - I think this is the best option for Gimli, DoE... to get or provide some bonus with tales

• Losing damage for strength - this is a nice idea, although I don't see it used much (especially since there are no other cards supporting that within FotR or even Movie Block)

• My Axe is Notched - what RB said

• Dwarf of Erebor-like abilities - we should tread carefully around this, putting cards under your deck could lead to some unexpected OP combos

• Opinionated Guide-like abilities - not bad, although I think Dwarves have more than enough options to draw cards

• Tutoring? (finding cards from your draw deck) - it's a nice idea, something like what RB suggested

• Enduring? - It's a really good idea, but I agree with RB that cards from earlier blocks shouldn't contain mechanics from later blocks

• Card draw? - same as with Opinionated Guide

• Event/possession recursion? (getting it back from the discard) - they already have cards to get events back (Ring of Guile, Dark Ways) and anything that could bring possessions back would make Dwarves too powerful (just look at what Memories of Darkness could do with conditions)

[Thranduil]

I understand the point about keeping a block's mechanical identity to the V-cards, though I personally disagree! The cards also want to be interesting for Standard (and in fact, need to feel like "new" cards, taking the game in a new direction, not just repeating what's been done before) and I think it might unnecessarily hamper our creativity. But let's not worry about that now! For the moment, let's work with what we have in the blocks we're dealing with. (I do, however, agree that a My Axe is Notched Gimli might look better on a Towers Gimli)

Other things to think about:

• Dwarf of Erebor's subtitle --> mountain/underground sites, for example?
• Dwarf strategies that never got off the ground --> I'm sure there are lots of these, but I can't remember any off-hand!


But I'm feeling at the moment a lean towards tales. I kind of like FM's suggestion: the ability to turn any card into a tale...

•Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V)
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Resistance: 6
Damage +1.
While you can spot 3 tales, each Free Peoples condition is a tale.
V1DW01

This requires some cultural enforcement, and some prior commitment to tales, to then turn everything into a tale. Seems awesome with that card I can't remember the name of.

Thran

[Tbiesty]

I think an important thing we need to take into account now (during the design of Virtual Set #1) is "which" formats these virtual cards will be allowed.
Identifying this (yes, taking a few moments to form a plan) will make this easier, and less confusing, as we go forward.

In summary, I think we should organize it something like this.

[The "theme" of Sets 1-3 is just "forgotten cards"]
  Virtual Set #1 would be virtual versions of Fellowship block cards.  (Allowed in FOTR, TS, and Movie)
  Virtual Set #2 would be virtual versions of Towers block cards.  (Allowed in TS and Movie)
  Virtual Set #3 would be virtual versions of King block cards.  (Allowed in Movie)

This way it will be easier to keep track of which V-cards to allow in a particular format (you avoid mashing of bunch of unrelated things into a single V-set), and it also helps define which mechanics, etc. to allow within a V-set.

I go into detail about it here.

[FM]

I liked Thran's even better, fits in a lot of strategies, althgouh not completely remaking them (you still need tales). I'd side with my suggestion if you were going with a more Dwarven-oriented Gimli, but with Thran's if you were going with a more flexible idea. And to make a point for Thran's, Dwarf of Erebor IS a "flexible" version, since it pairs with Elves and decks that get hand-clogged (specially shadow-wise) a lot really well. Then again, this could be a point for making him NOT so flexible, since the original is already a flexible aproach, so the new one should be taken in a different direction for the sake of reinventing the game a little... Hum... Tough one to break. Thank God I'm just a nosy forumer.

[hrcho]

Thran's idea is too powerful. Imagine having that Gimli along with hobbits. Put 3 tales on the table, run Pippin, Friend to Frodo and all your Shadowplay and TSC cannot get discarded. That's a bit too much, don't you think? Also, what would happen if someone were to throw Saruman's Power on that setup? Would all conditions get discarded or just dwarven conditions?

I'd go with something like this:

Fellowship: Exert two companions or one companion twice to play a tale from your draw deck or discard pile.

[hrcho]

•Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V)
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Signet: Aragorn
Damage +1.
Fellowship: Play a Dwarf to take a or tale into hand from your draw deck.

It's nice, although taking cards isn't something a Dwarf of Erebor would do. I mean, Gimli didn't even know the race of hobbits existed until the council and he probably didn't even see them then until someone pointed them out.

[Thranduil]

Yep! I was fairly sure my version was powerful. Often it's a good idea just to see how far we can take it, then bring it back to being sensible!

And tutoring or recurring tales seems like a great thing for Gimli to do. Also just having bonuses for tales:

•Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V)
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Resistance: 6
While you can spot a tale, Gimli is damage +1.
While you can spot 3 tales, Gimli is strength +2.
While you can spot 5 tales, Gimli cannot take wounds (except during the archery phase).

That's a classic Thranduil vintage burrito for you!

Or even

Skirmish: Discard your tale card from play to make Gimli strength +2.


Also, going with the Dwarf of Erebor theme, how about an ability dealing with Men and/or the home 3 allies like Jarnsmid, Erland etc.?

Thran

[Tbiesty]

Also, going with the Dwarf of Erebor theme, how about an ability dealing with Men and/or the home 3 allies like Jarnsmid, Erland etc.?

Hmm... Gimli sees certain characters arrive at the Council of Elrond, which causes him to recount the "dwarven" tales that his father, Gloin, Friend to Thorin, told him when he was younger.  How about this?

•Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V)
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Signet: Aragorn
Damage +1.
Fellowship: Play a or character to take a tale into hand from your draw deck.

[Kralik]

I'm finding these tales ideas quite interesting.

I agree 100% with RB, though, and suggest that no mechanics outside of FotR Block are used for a FotR block card. e.g. threats, tokens, TT cards...

Other than that I'll just sit on the sidelines and watch the genius at work.

[Gerontius]

Skirmish: Discard your tale card from play to make Gimli strength +2.

Just an extra opinion- I'd say that this one is my favourite so far. Perhaps change it to "from play or from hand" to include events like Might of Numenor?

[Tbiesty]

Would you guys, in general, agree that a "tale" theme is what we would like for this Gimli?

If so, may I suggest that we use this next week (7 days or so) to pick out or suggest specific versions that we like best and then try to get it narrowed down to our top 3 versions.  At that point, I can make "alpha" slips like I did for the ring and people can try them out and see which one we like best.

I would also suggest that in the next day or two another discussion is opened for the next card.  There's no harm in brainstorming ideas for multiple cards at a time.  In fact, I think that keeping discussions moving encourages participation, which means more/better opinions, and a better product in the end.

[Thranduil]

Would you guys, in general, agree that a "tale" theme is what we would like for this Gimli?

If so, may I suggest that we use this next week (7 days or so) to pick out or suggest specific versions that we like best and then try to get it narrowed down to our top 3 versions.  At that point, I can make "alpha" slips like I did for the ring and people can try them out and see which one we like best.

I would also suggest that in the next day or two another discussion is opened for the next card.  There's no harm in brainstorming ideas for multiple cards at a time.  In fact, I think that keeping discussions moving encourages participation, which means more/better opinions, and a better product in the end.

I agree with all of this! Tales has such a strong flavour resonance with the Gimli that DoE is representing, so I think we should go for it.

Except, that I might suggest we open discussion on a new card once we have the alpha playtest slips. Shadow card? Let's look at Goblin Archer maybe?

Thran

[Tbiesty]

I agree with all of this! Tales has such a strong flavour resonance with the Gimli that DoE is representing, so I think we should go for it.

Except, that I might suggest we open discussion on a new card once we have the alpha playtest slips. Shadow card? Let's look at Goblin Archer maybe?

Excellent!

[Ringbearer]

What we have to take into account with tales is cards like The COuncil of Elrond. If we pick the Gimli who makes tales, I would highly suggest it taregtting FP cards on table only. I find a condition puller too strong.

[Hobbiton Lad]

•Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V)
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Resistance: 6
While you can spot a tale, Gimli is damage +1.
While you can spot 3 tales, Gimli is strength +2.
While you can spot 5 tales, Gimli cannot take wounds (except during the archery phase).

This particular concept would have a lot of synergy with virtually every FP culture (other than which is light on tales) in Fellowship Block. The particular bonuses might warrant some consideration, or maybe even more cultural flavor. For example:

•Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V)
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Resistance: 6
Damage +1.
While you can spot a tale, Gimli is defender+1.
While you can spot a tale, Gimli is strength +2.
While you can spot a tale, add 1 to the Fellowship archery total.

I'm sure there are better options than this, but I just wanted to throw the concept out there more than anything else. I personally think that Gimli should always be damage +1 though. I just don't see the justification for removing a bonus that seems to be inherent to the character.