Uruk-hai Scout and "fellowship's current site"

[BigRedMF]

Yes, I was going to use Deft as an example but didn't want to bring yet another card into the discussion. The event only affects what is currently in play (i.e. the snapshot of the game when it is played). The resulting effect may last longer. I understand how Eregion's Trails is confusing because you are right, it doesn't say "currently" roaming minions. But the fact that it is an event means you apply the text as soon as you play it, i.e. all roaming minions at the time it is played become strength -3. The part that lasts until the Regroup phase is the strength modification. Just like Deft, when you play it, all sites in play are reduced by 2 shadow. That modification lasts until the end of the turn, but it doesn't apply to sites you play later, just like Eregion's Trails doesn't apply to minions that are made roaming later. Hopefully that makes sense? When I first started playing I thought Deft made all sites -2 even those that weren't in play, but when you truly understand the difference between an event and a condition then you understand why it does not affect sites not in play yet.

[dmaz]

Yes, I was going to use Deft as an example but didn't want to bring yet another card into the discussion. The event only affects what is currently in play (i.e. the snapshot of the game when it is played). The resulting effect may last longer. I understand how Eregion's Trails is confusing because you are right, it doesn't say "currently" roaming minions. But the fact that it is an event means you apply the text as soon as you play it, i.e. all roaming minions at the time it is played become strength -3. The part that lasts until the Regroup phase is the strength modification. Just like Deft, when you play it, all sites in play are reduced by 2 shadow. That modification lasts until the end of the turn, but it doesn't apply to sites you play later, just like Eregion's Trails doesn't apply to minions that are made roaming later. Hopefully that makes sense? When I first started playing I thought Deft made all sites -2 even those that weren't in play, but when you truly understand the difference between an event and a condition then you understand why it does not affect sites not in play yet.

So Deft in Their Movements really doesn't affect a new site played? I just have this feeling that the game designers intended for it to. And according to this deduction then We Must Go Warily doesn't do anything, effectively, except for cards that spot the twilight cost of minions already in play (not sure if any such cards exist, though I'm pretty sure they don't in Fellowship block).

[bibfortuna25]

The twilight cost of a card can only be modified as it is coming into play. At all other times, you use the printed number. Using this logic, it seems to me that WMGW would be an exception to the snapshot rule, otherwise it definitely wouldn't do anything.

[dmaz]

The twilight cost of a card can only be modified as it is coming into play. At all other times, you use the printed number. Using this logic, it seems to me that WMGW would be an exception to the snapshot rule, otherwise it definitely wouldn't do anything.

Yeah, it really just doesn't make sense that any other way.
Do you think that, by following the same "spirit" of the card's intention, we could assume Deft in Their Movements would also be a minor exception to the snapshot rule? It feels like Decipher had intended for it to be taken that way at least...otherwise there would be a lot of situations where it would just be a dead useless card.

[BigRedMF]

Bib: WMGW is not really an exception, since it has a lasting effect. True, it does not impact any cards that are in play. But there are multitudes of cards that affect the cost of things beyond the instance they are used/played. Rohirrim Road and Some Who Resisted immediately come to mind.

dmaz: I agree with you that Deft might have been intended to modify more than just the sites already in play. However I thought there was a clarification at some point that explained it did not (maybe it was just my playgroup that clarified for me). Either way, you can't assume design intent when determining what a card actually does. There are a number of cards in post-movie that I would assume were designed differently than they actually work

[dmaz]

But there are multitudes of cards that affect the cost of things beyond the instance they are used/played. Rohirrim Road and Some Who Resisted immediately come to mind.

I understand what you mean, makes sense.

However for those two cards...one is an event that is restricted within its phase, and the other is a site...so not really comparable

[BigRedMF]

Some Who Resisted is an event, and it impacts cards that aren't already in play. Doesn't matter if it is the same phase or not, this is the same type effect as WMGW. So yes, it is directly comparable.

[dmaz]

Some Who Resisted is an event, and it impacts cards that aren't already in play. Doesn't matter if it is the same phase or not, this is the same type effect as WMGW. So yes, it is directly comparable.

When an event doesn't have "until X phase or end of turn" then it is restricted to the phase in which it is played. In other words, For Some Who Resisted, it is making a blanket statement that all events in that maneuver phase are +2. So you just follow those global rules until the phase is over. WMGW deals with stuff outside of that phase that hasn't happened yet.

Overall what is confusing here is that on one hand we are saying that events have a snapshot rule, and on the other hand we are saying they are not snapshots in these specific cases that we decide, based on either what makes logical sense or just our own personal bias. Can we make up our minds?

[bibfortuna25]

Bib: WMGW is not really an exception, since it has a lasting effect. True, it does not impact any cards that are in play. But there are multitudes of cards that affect the cost of things beyond the instance they are used/played. Rohirrim Road and Some Who Resisted immediately come to mind.

dmaz: I agree with you that Deft might have been intended to modify more than just the sites already in play. However I thought there was a clarification at some point that explained it did not (maybe it was just my playgroup that clarified for me). Either way, you can't assume design intent when determining what a card actually does. There are a number of cards in post-movie that I would assume were designed differently than they actually work

Rohirrim Road can only affect the cost of conditions/possessions as they are coming into play. Once they are in play, any cards that check on their twilight costs (e.g. Catapult) will use the printed number only.

Some Who Resisted also only affects the cost of events that are actually played. If Might of Numenor reveals an event from a Shadow player's hand, you still use that event's printed twilight cost.

[BigRedMF]

We don't have to make up our minds. As bibfortuna's quote says, "all cards do what they say, no more, no less". Events occur instantly, some only function in that instant (i.e. wound a minion), but some impart a lasting effect for a specified period of time (for the current phase, until the regroup phase, etc). We are not deciding based on what makes logical sense - we are following the rules of the game, and what the cards say they do. There are some clarifications necessary, such as bib just pointed out regarding what modifying cost really means, but the cards do what they say, for the duration they say.

Maybe I am doing a poor job of explaining, but "snapshot" is really just a term to help people understand how game text is applied when an action or ability is used/triggered/etc.

[dmaz]

I think I'm starting to understand a little better now.

I think my problem is I wasn't thinking too literally, outside of the practical application of the cards.

Let me know if this is kind of the situation.

For Events (excluding game text of characters, conditions, and sites):

1. When an event is played, apply the snapshot rule.

2. It will be clear right away if the event is taking a "snapshot", applying to cards that are already in play (Eregion's Trails, Pursuit Just Behind, etc).

3. If this is the case, apply all modifiers at the moment the event is played. Circumstances may be modified further to change the modifiers put in place, possibly negating their effect (example: if I play Lightfootedness while the minion archery total is 0, just to get it out of my hand, and then my opponent plays Elevated Fire after me, the minion archery total should be 3, and not 2, right?)

4. If this is not the case, then the event applies to either things that will eventually happen ("If the fellowship moves more than once", etc), or card that will eventually be played like WMGW.

Is this the correct deduction, more or less? Lightfootedness kind of helped me grasp this whole thing a little better. If you play it when the minion archery total is 0, it stays at 0 (you can't make it -1). If the minion archery total is then raised, you shouldn't apply the -1 from Lightfootedness. At least I don't think so...Anyway if I was applying the whole "global" rules for events that I initially believed everything functioned on, then you should in fact apply the -1 from Lightfootedness throughout the rest of the archery phase, and that is almost definitely wrong I think...

Altogether, thank you both very much for helping explain these a little more. Here's some gold for each of your posts that gave me the most profound revelations about it all, so to speak, haha.

At face value, I was a little confused regarding the "global" versus "snapshot" rules thing. I think I understand events a little bit better now

[bibfortuna25]

If a value gets reduced below 0, then it gets reset to 0. If the value is then increased by another effect, then the reduction is still taken into account.

So Lightfootedness + Elevated Fire makes the minion archery total 2, assuming no other modifiers.

[dmaz]

If a value gets reduced below 0, then it gets reset to 0. If the value is then increased by another effect, then the reduction is still taken into account.

So Lightfootedness + Elevated Fire makes the minion archery total 2, assuming no other modifiers.

Now I'm really confused...

So I play Lightfootedness. We take a "snapshot", the Minion archery total is 0, it goes to -1 then gets reset to 0. Opponent plays Elevated Fire. Wouldn't his "snapshot" find the archery total to equal 0, then he raises it to three?

If we assume that Lightfootedness doesn't just take a snapshot but affect the "global" settings, and as you said, still applies to future modifiers, until the end of the archery phase, then why would cards like Eregion's Trails not affect a minion who becomes roaming while skirmishing Faramir, Bearer of Quality, as it affects minions until the regroup phase?

[BigRedMF]

Let me take a stab at that question. So Lightfootedness is just like Some Who Resisted in that it is implied to last until the end of the phase (just like a skirmish event). So the -1 and +3 both last through the archery phase, resulting in a +2 when it comes time to calculate archery total.

[dmaz]

That I do understand...but how do we know when to decide what a card is implying? We could argue that many cards imply lots of things...but just to do that, aren't we making the card actually do more than it just says at face value?

EDIT: In the comprehensive rulebook it uses Eregion's Trails and DITM as two examples of the "snapshot" rule...however it also vaguely says "some" events when referring to events that use the "snapshot" rule...so we just need to use our best judgement when deciding if it is a snapshot or not?