Uruk-hai Scout and "fellowship's current site"

[dmaz]

Here's the card:
http://lotrtcgwiki.com/wiki/lotr14015

My assumption is that when you play this card, and choose the keyword, that keyword will be in place even if your opponent swaps the site with, say, Traveled Leader. Because it says "fellowship's current site", does that mean that even if either Shadow or Fellowship changes the site, that new site is still the "fellowship's current site"?

This could be a useful card when going up against an IB deck and you want to keep the site underground so that Balrog, DoM will skip maneuver.

What do you guys think?

[BigRedMF]

I don't know, I can see it either way. I know, real helpful!
I usually interpret things the way Magic plays, which isn't always consistent with LotR, but I see this minion giving a keyword to the actual site card, that would stay with that specific site card (not transferrable to a replacement).

Have you tested it on Gemp?

[Carl333]

It could be taken either way.

[sgtdraino]

Not sure about the card ruling, but with the balrog, they wont have time to change the site anyway.

[dethwish07]

My best guess is that it only applies to site that is "current" when the uruk is played based upon the snapshot idea associate with other cards such as Eregion's Trails (only the minions roaming during the maneuver phase when the card is played are affected. It would not apply to a minion that was made roaming during say the skirmish phase as RB Rangers used to do). So, were someone to swap the site after the uruk was played and his text applied, the new site would not gain the keyword.

As Sgt points out, this question is essentially academic if one is concerned with using Balrog, DoM.

[dmaz]

My best guess is that it only applies to site that is "current" when the uruk is played based upon the snapshot idea associate with other cards such as Eregion's Hills (only the minions roaming during the maneuver phase when the card is played are affected. It would not apply to a minion that was made roaming during say the skirmish phase as RB Rangers used to do). So, were someone to swap the site after the uruk was played and his text applied, the new site would not gain the keyword.

As Sgt points out, this question is essentially academic if one is concerned with using Balrog, DoM.

Yeah, I completely brainfarted about the balrog haha.

I thought about bibfortuna's golden rule of "Cards do what they say" and tried to follow that to its logical conclusion. I guess it could be taken both ways, but after reading through the card, and some other cards fully, here's the way I took it.

1. Uruk is played, Uruk makes the fellowship's current site X until the end of the end of the turn.
2. The fellowship's current site is X.
3. Site is swapped for another site.
4. The new site is now the fellowship's current site.
5. The fellowship's current site is X.

Take your example with Eregion's Trails. When the card is played then, until regroup phrase, it will target all roaming minions at any point in time, right? So be checking. Is this minion roaming? Yes. Then is it strength -3. Now he is not roaming, he is not strength -3.

If we were to use Eregion's Trails as an example, then we should apply the same thing to Uruk-hai Scout. Is this site the fellowship's current site? Yes. Then it is X.

The flipside to this argument is that when it says "fellowship's current site" it's referring only to the site that the fellowship is standing on now.

Well...
1. The card doesn't say that.
2. In FOTR whenever a card is being singled out, it is usually "spotted".

Look at Uruk Cavern Striker, for example. A single site is being targeted, thus you "spot" that site.

The way I now understand it after looking at all of this is:
If the card was to only add the keyword to the site that the Fellowship was standing on at the moment Uruk-hai Scout was played, then the wording would have to be as such:
"Spot the fellowship's current site. That site gains that keyword until the end of the turn."

This way you actually are singling out the site that they are standing on at that moment, so that if the site were changed in maneuver, the fellowship's current site would no longer have the keyword.

Hopefully bib will swing by to lend his knowledge...

[BigRedMF]

I'm pretty sure Eregion's Trails only affects minions that are roaming at the time it is played. The whole "snapshot" idea, since it is an event, is that all currently roaming minions are strength -3 until regroup. Otherwise it would say "Until the Regroup phase, each minion that is roaming is strength -3." It may seem like the same thing but it's not. In my example wording, the event acts almost like a condition that would check for roaming until the Regroup (exactly as you described). The actual card however is modifying the existing minions at the moment it is played and keeping that modification until the Regroup. It doesn't modify minions in the future if they are made roaming later. That is why I think the Uruk-hai Scout modifies the existing site when played, but if replaced the new site doesn't gain the same text.

[dethwish07]

I'm pretty sure Eregion's Trails only affects minions that are roaming at the time it is played. The whole "snapshot" idea, since it is an event, is that all currently roaming minions are strength -3 until regroup. Otherwise it would say "Until the Regroup phase, each minion that is roaming is strength -3." It may seem like the same thing but it's not. In my example wording, the event acts almost like a condition that would check for roaming until the Regroup (exactly as you described). The actual card however is modifying the existing minions at the moment it is played and keeping that modification until the Regroup. It doesn't modify minions in the future if they are made roaming later. That is why I think the Uruk-hai Scout modifies the existing site when played, but if replaced the new site doesn't gain the same text.

You are exactly right about Eregion's Trails. I was in a hurry when I posted, so perhaps I should have made sure I was more clear with my explanation. It was this same understanding of Eregion's Trails that led me to conclude that, as you say, the scout modifies the existing current site when played, but if that site is subsequently replaced, the new current site does not gain the keyword.

[bibfortuna25]

I would rule it that the Uruk-hai Scout adds the keyword to the new swapped site. If he only worked on the exact site that he's played at, he would say "When you play this minion, spot the fellowship's current site. That site gains X keyword until the regroup phase."

[sgtdraino]

So what if the fellowship doubles? Now their current site is a different site. Still applies the keyword?

[dmaz]

Not sure about that...say the Uruk-hai Scout was played at site 4. The fellowships current site when he is played is site 4. If it got switched during maneuver it is still site 4. If they fellowship doubled, site 5 is the fellowship's current site, BUT it is not site 4...but as it is still the same turn site 4 still has the keyword they chose, and will continue to have it no matter how many times it is changed. Still not sure...just my take on it.


@BigRedMF and dethwish - if we make that conclusion about Eregion's Trails, then this means that playing We Must Go Warily would do absolutely nothing for minions played in the next shadow phase. This is a response event that happens while the fellowship moves in the regroup phase. If we used your snapshot theory, then the only minions that would gain +1 twilight cost would be ones that were in play at the time the event was played. If I understand you right, for this card to do anything at all to any future minions played it would have needed to read: "until the next regroup phase, each minion that is played during the shadow phase is twilight cost +1". But it's not worded that way and it still does exactly that...events that do X until X phase, must, I believe, be dynamic.

The only time the effects are not dynamic, from my understanding, is when you are required to "spot" something. then you are dealing with that particular card or cards, for the amount of time specified, and to whatever effects follow after spotting.

[BigRedMF]

Dmaz, I think you are misunderstanding what is lasting until the Regroup phase. We Must Go Warily increases each minion's cost by 1 until the next Regroup phase. You can't misinterpret that because you only pay a cost when you play a minion; hence it does not affect minions already in play, but those that will be played until the next Regroup phase.

Eregion's Trails however makes (currently) roaming minions strength -3 until the Regroup phase. The strength modifier is what lasts until the Regroup phase, not the check for roaming. When you play the card, all minions that are roaming at that time become strength -3. That strength modification lasts until the Regroup phase (it wouldn't be very helpful otherwise). But if a minion is not roaming, they do not get the modifier when the event is played.

The point raised about Uruk-hai Scout and the fellowship moving makes me even more convinced that it should only apply to the actual site card, and not the generic "current site" regardless of what that card may be.

[dmaz]

Dmaz, I think you are misunderstanding what is lasting until the Regroup phase. We Must Go Warily increases each minion's cost by 1 until the next Regroup phase. You can't misinterpret that because you only pay a cost when you play a minion; hence it does not affect minions already in play, but those that will be played until the next Regroup phase.

Eregion's Trails however makes (currently) roaming minions strength -3 until the Regroup phase. The strength modifier is what lasts until the Regroup phase, not the check for roaming. When you play the card, all minions that are roaming at that time become strength -3. That strength modification lasts until the Regroup phase (it wouldn't be very helpful otherwise). But if a minion is not roaming, they do not get the modifier when the event is played.

The point raised about Uruk-hai Scout and the fellowship moving makes me even more convinced that it should only apply to the actual site card, and not the generic "current site" regardless of what that card may be.

I dunno...I still have to agree with bibfortuna on this. Eregion's Trails doesn't say that it only makes "(currently)" roaming minions strength -3. It says that it makes roaming minions strength -3. Cards do what they say, but they don't do more than what they say. We have to just go with what the card says, and follow that logically until the "regroup phase" or "end of turn". Otherwise we are making assumptions. 

Now I'm really curious to see what happens in GEMP when you play Eregion's Trails and make a minion roaming later I have a feeling if it becomes roaming in a skirmish, it will also become strength -3...

[bibfortuna25]

Events have a "snapshot" rule, meaning they only affect cards that fit the criteria at the time the event is played.

[dmaz]

Events have a "snapshot" rule, meaning they only affect cards that fit the criteria at the time the event is played.

Gotcha...so does that mean that We Must Go Warily would only increase the twilight cost of minions currently on the table? The card would really be useless in that case...
If the cards does affect future minions played, then it is not a "snapshot". Either that or we are simply assuming that, in this specific case, it affects cards not in the "snapshot", (although the card doesn't say that) right?

EDIT: Just noticed that if you played Deft in Their Movements, and applied the "snapshot" rule, it wouldn't affect sites that haven't been played yet, correct?