The Last Homely House
Undying Lands => Valinor => Topic started by: dmaz on September 03, 2014, 06:30:13 PM
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Hello everyone,
Currently in GEMP we have 5 running sealed leagues, I believe. FotR, TT, RotK, WotR and Movie.
Out of all of these, one of the leagues I enjoy the most is the Movie one. I think some people here could agree! The combination of the cool elements of Movie block, with the exciting aspect of SEALED just makes for a great league.
So since the Movie sealed was successful, why not reach for Towers Standard?
I got in touch with MarcinS, and he said he would be fine with uploading the TS Sealed "starter" decks for each serie. He explained to me the correct format to write them up in. All we need to do now, if you are all interested, is define the starter decks and booster support for each serie!
My plan of action is:
1. Brainstorm, discuss possible themes for each starter
2. Vote on overall themes for each starter
3. Decide on number of starter options per serie and what booster support for each serie
4. Develop card lists and playtest these card lists
5. Finalize card lists that are both playable and balanced (outside of the booster support)
6. Send to MarcinS
This thread we can use for the initial brainstorming and over discussion of the progress of the project.
Who's with me? :)
ADDED: Here is the link to the Starter Deck Theme poll. Let your opinions be heard!
http://lotrtcgwiki.com/forums/index.php/topic,9009.0.html
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Just off the top of my head to get an idea rolling:
-a player could start by choosing two starter decks (one fellowship block, one towers block)
and
-choice of 4-6 boosters (from sets 1-6)
-grant 2-3 boosters (choice of sets 1-6) for each series
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Overall, for a TS Sealed league, I feel like it would be nice to launch some starters that have themes that have not been touched on at all with the existing sealed decks.
As far as Shadow goes, there will always be some repetition, but I really think there are some combos or strategies in general which would benefit from having their own starter. In the end, everyone would be having some fresh experiences, working with combinations of cards that they probably have not in the past :)
I'll just throw down some of my ideas to the list, going serie by serie...this doesn't mean that I think that one deck would be limited to that serie in particular...it might just fit there a little better.
I'll underline the ones that I feel stronger about. Let me know what you think and please post your own!
FoTR / TT
FELLOWSHIP
Rangers - a combination of the rangers from FOTR Block, and maybe a couple Ringbound ones from TT. Splash a No Stranger to the Shadows or two and some athelas :)
Rohan/Gandalf
Dwarf/Gandalf
Shoulder to Shoulder - I think a starter deck centered around this card would be very cool
Gondor/Stealth Hobbits
Gandalf/Stealth Hobbits
SHADOW
Isengard Trackers - Maybe include the one tracker from RotEL and throw in some Saruman's Ambition...
Easterlings
Dunland
Southron
MoM/BoHD
FELLOWSHIP
Elf Archery
Gondor Knights - I think a starter based on knights would be cool...even if the pool is limited, you could add some support from FotR Block
Smeagol/Hobbit Choke
Ringbound Companions
SHADOW
Twilight Nazgul - I really think its time for these guys to make their debut. They may not be the strongest, but with some support from Fell Beast and set 6 Nertea, they should put up a fight in a Sealed environment. Would be a lot of fun.
Sauron Trackers
Archery
Warg-Riders - Maybe these guys should get left out since they already have a starter? Maybe they could be combined with something?
Berserk Uruks and Machines
RotEL/EoF
FELLOWSHIP
Last Alliance - Elves and Gondor companions
Help in Doubt and Need - Rohan and Gondor companions
Shire Pipeweed/Dwarf Tanks - just trying to think outside the box, haha
Ent Hordes
SHADOW
Sauron Discarding
Gollum/Easterlings - combine Easterlings with the Gollum and his events that add burdens and wound for skirmish wins.
"Stupid Swarm" - This would be the classic combination of Isengard and Moria orcs
News of Mordor - Nazgul and Isengard minions (possibly orcs like Isengard Smith)
Also, as a general discussion topic, what are peoples' thoughts on including Cavern Entrance in one of the starters. In the TT sealed, it doesn't look like it shows up in any of the starters...maybe because it is so powerful a card? What does everyone think?
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Just off the top of my head to get an idea rolling:
-a player could start by choosing two starter decks (one fellowship block, one towers block)
and
-choice of 4-6 boosters (from sets 1-6)
-grant 2-3 boosters (choice of sets 1-6) for each series
This was where my mind went right away! The positive aspects to this is that it would take a lot less work to set up, and could effectively be launched in one day :)
However, if the base card pool of decks is coming from pre-existing starters the amount of "new experience" each player would get would be truncated a little.
For example, it would be a new experience to play the FotR Gandalf starter with Moria on the TT site path...maybe you would combine it with Dunland for swarm factor...but the meat of your deck is still coming from cards and strategies that people have played against before...
If we completely design brand new starter decks, which was done for the Movie sealed, we would have completely fresh and interesting games every serie.
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Like in Movie, some cards from later sets could be added, or some P cards.
And I strongly advise against using EoF orcs for any of the preconstructed starters. Mixing those with RotEL orcs would just be too powerful, both in swarming as well as wounding capability.
I'll voice some thoughts on the matter after I've had time to think about it, BUT I'm still negative about MarcinS to actually implement the decks once they're finished. Let's hope I'll be proven wrong!
Edit: This thread would have been better at Valinor ;)
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Just a word of caution, any starter decks you create need to be playtested extensively for balance. You can be sure that decipher extensively playtested the starters they released, and we still have arguments about whether or not they are balanced. So ALOT of testing is needed.
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I agree with draino here, except for the point that Decipher did actual playtesting after Shadows.
Here's a first draft for a Knight freeps. Boy, this sure ain't easy.
Ring-bearer: Frodo, Son of Drogo
Ring: The One Ring, The Ruling Ring
Adventure deck:
Free Peoples Draw Deck:
2x Faramir, Son of Denethor
2x Gondorian Knight
1x Turgon, Man of Belfalas
1x Merry, From O'er the Brandywine
1x Armor
1x Banner of Westernesse
1x Knight's Mount
2x Sword of Gondor
2x Hobbit Sword
2x Dagger Strike
2x War Must Be
1x Citadel of the Stars
2x City Wall
2x First Level
1x Garrison of Osgiliath
I was thinking about White Tree Guard, but opted for Knights Mount as outsider card. While Guard is practically just a 3-7 companion, adding another Knight isn't that good imo. Those Fortifications shouldn't be usable for free that easily. I also thought about including Pippin, GOMT, but ditched him as well, to not provide a serious cycling ability.
This side has 23 cards, forcing to use whatever booser packs are available. I would have preferred 25, but I haven't found any useful cards and upping the companion count is also a no go imo.
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The ball is rolling! :)
Like in Movie, some cards from later sets could be added, or some P cards.
I definitely agree! There are some good P cards that we could splash into any given theme without ruining the TS element.
And I strongly advise against using EoF orcs for any of the preconstructed starters. Mixing those with RotEL orcs would just be too powerful, both in swarming as well as wounding capability.
Very good point... In the all cards league I got stomped by a combined Isengard orc deck that was comprised of nearly all commons and uncomons anyway. Do you think a stupid swarm that didn't incorporate any of the wounding in regroup phase would still be too much?
I'll voice some thoughts on the matter after I've had time to think about it, BUT I'm still negative about MarcinS to actually implement the decks once they're finished. Let's hope I'll be proven wrong!
I'm hopeful, or at the very least, motivated :)
Edit: This thread would have been better at Valinor ;)
True... Forgot that there was the one exclusively for online play. I'll definitely post the voting and play testing on there :)
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Swarm in general is bad in a Sealed. It limits the pack choices heavily, since Hobbit protection is all FotR and TT. I never died to swarm last FotR Sealed, but I had enough protection going on. Not gonna happen here if we want to push diversity rather than "hey, this is the safest way to go!"
EoF orcs are fine. If someone desires to build such a swarm shadow, he would have to choose RotEL packs, which would be fine. If we implement those orcs, of course. Also, Sealed is mostly flooding the pool and see what comes. Such a shadow would empty its hand every time.
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Just a word of caution, any starter decks you create need to be playtested extensively for balance. You can be sure that decipher extensively playtested the starters they released, and we still have arguments about whether or not they are balanced. So ALOT of testing is needed.
This will be the most time consuming part of this process for sure... At least we don't have to develop the cards themselves XD
At the very least we'll need several games of each possible combination for each serie playing eachother...
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This was where my mind went right away! The positive aspects to this is that it would take a lot less work to set up, and could effectively be launched in one day :)
If we completely design brand new starter decks, which was done for the Movie sealed, we would have completely fresh and interesting games every serie.
Ah, ok - wasn't aware of how the Movie block was run (wasn't around for that one). I'll get to stirring up a few ideas, then :-)
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Overall, for a TS Sealed league, I feel like it would be nice to launch some starters that have themes that have not been touched on at all with the existing sealed decks.
Shoulder to Shoulder - I think a starter deck centered around this card would be very cool
I've made one of these - it can be a very, very fun one!
Twilight Nazgul - I really think its time for these guys to make their debut. They may not be the strongest, but with some support from Fell Beast and set 6 Nertea, they should put up a fight in a Sealed environment. Would be a lot of fun.
I've also found this to be a fun one - one challenge is the potential number of rares needed to make it most effective (Witch-King lotn and Nelya come to mind). While certainly do-able, those rares would need to be balanced out to make other decks on par.
Also, as a general discussion topic, what are peoples' thoughts on including Cavern Entrance in one of the starters. In the TT sealed, it doesn't look like it shows up in any of the starters...maybe because it is so powerful a card? What does everyone think?
I think choice of site 7 would ultimately be based around what the final decks look like. Personally, getting killed by an ill-timed Bill Ferny at Cavern Entrance is like getting hit by lighting because you were holding up a lolli-pop stick: dang embarrassing, but it makes for a funny story, but only if you live :-)
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No Cavern. Starters are designed so you could play everything. Cavern negates that. If a player pulls one, fine. Otherwise I'd recommend against it. Also, no R cards even if it's just the P pendant like from the CttK collection.
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No Cavern. Starters are designed so you could play everything. Cavern negates that. If a player pulls one, fine. Otherwise I'd recommend against it. Also, no R cards even if it's just the P pendant like from the CttK collection.
Ok cool, I think everyone else will agree that we can settle the matter on leaving them out. While I was debating it, it just didn't feel like a necessary card, but this explains the situation perfectly.
I also agree on not adding rare cards. Even for a strategy like Twilight Nazgul, as its a starter deck, I think having twilight Enquea on a Fell Beast as your big hitter isn't too bad...
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I agree with draino here, except for the point that Decipher did actual playtesting after Shadows.
Here's a first draft for a Knight freeps. Boy, this sure ain't easy.
Ring-bearer: Frodo, Son of Drogo
Ring: The One Ring, The Ruling Ring
Adventure deck:
Free Peoples Draw Deck:
2x Faramir, Son of Denethor
2x Gondorian Knight
1x Turgon, Man of Belfalas
1x Merry, From O'er the Brandywine
1x Armor
1x Banner of Westernesse
1x Knight's Mount
2x Sword of Gondor
2x Hobbit Sword
2x Dagger Strike
2x War Must Be
1x Citadel of the Stars
2x City Wall
2x First Level
1x Garrison of Osgiliath
I was thinking about White Tree Guard, but opted for Knights Mount as outsider card. While Guard is practically just a 3-7 companion, adding another Knight isn't that good imo. Those Fortifications shouldn't be usable for free that easily. I also thought about including Pippin, GOMT, but ditched him as well, to not provide a serious cycling ability.
This side has 23 cards, forcing to use whatever booser packs are available. I would have preferred 25, but I haven't found any useful cards and upping the companion count is also a no go imo.
I like it so far! I wanna dig a littler deeper on it later too, but this just came to mind: what about possibly addding: http://lotrtcgwiki.com/wiki/lotr00023 as a companion? :)
EDIT: Is there a standard card count for each of the created Movie sealed starters?
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I threw together a rough draft idea for Twilight Nazgul. Pretty straightforward, took some inspiration from pre-existing Nazgul starters. Didn't want to make Blade Tip and Black Breath the highlight too much, so just splashed the two Blade Tips in the event that Ostea hits his mark.
Would it be too much to add Shotgun Enquea in addition to the three twilight?
Ulaire Attea, The Easterling x3
Ulaire Enquea, Ringwraith in Twilight x3
Ulaire Otsea, Ringwraith in Twilight x3
Ulaire Lemenya, Lieutenant of Morgul x2
Ulaire Nertea, Winged Hunter x3
Morgul Skulker x2
Corpse Lights x2
Dead Ones x2
Fell Beast x2
Blade Tip x2
Resistance Becomes Unbearable x2
Threshold of Shadow x2
I just checked the Movie sealed starters and they all stand at 30. Do we want to make the decks all an even 30 as well?
For this one so far, I left it at 28, in its rough form. I was wondering about splashable Sauron minions and was very happy to rediscover the normally useless Wraiths from set 6. For a starter deck, they work really cool, and I doubt they've ever seen real use before. I'd like to maybe include a Wisp of Pale Sheen and another Nazgul...Maybe I should swap the two Dead Ones for Wisp of Pale Sheen, to give a little umph to the burden adding, since I didn't add It Wants to Be Found?
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Clarification about the booster support per Serie.
In Movie I believe its:
Serie 1: 3 booster Choice, 1 booster from each set (1,4,7)
Serie 2: 1 booster from each set (2,5,8)
Serie 3: 1 booster from each set (3,6,9)
Serie 4: 5 booster choice, 1 Reflections booster
Maybe someone can confirm that for me...
For this league, as there will be two sets for each serie, let's get peoples' opinions on how we should do booster support.
Aside from the booster choice in serie 1 and 4, should we provide 2 packs from each set per serie or just 1? Or should we provide 1 pack from each set per serie PLUS 1 booster choice from between the two...or 1 booster choice from sets 1 - 6?
Lots of options...my personal opinion is to do something as close to the current running standard as possible, like:
Serie 1: 4 booster choice, 1 booster from each set (1,4)
Serie 2: 1 booster choice (set 2 or set 5) 1 booster from each set (2,5)
Serie 3: 1 booster choice (set 3 or set 6) 1 booster from each set (3,6)
Serie 4: 5 or 6 booster choice
...I can't think of any other booster or "enhanced pack" that would be helpful to add in serie 4...I'm not sure if Reflections would be beneficial to add; it's always fun opening a Reflections pack in a sealed, but should it invade the TS sealed as well?
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Another idea:
Ring-bearer: Frodo, Weary From the Journey
Ring: The One Ring, The Ruling Ring
2x Gimli, Unbidden Guest
1x Arwen, Evenstar of Her People
1x Haldir, Emissary of the Galadhrim
2x Legolas, Archer of Mirkwood
1x Naith Troop
1x Pengedhel, Naith Warrior
1x Galdor, Councilor From the West
1x Golradir, Councilor of Imladris
1x Saelbeth, Elven Councilor
1x Dwarven Axe
1x Dwarven Bracers
1x Hand Axe
1x Asfaloth
2x Elven Sword
2x Naith Longbow
2x Hobbit Sword
3x Supporting Fire
2x Endurance of Dwarves
1x Agility
2x Hosts of the Last Alliance
1x Strength of Arms
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My $0.02
- Starters should be designed from the ground up like the ones in the Movie Block sealed.
- We should limit the cards from sets beyond 1-6 fairly significantly. There were only 5 cards used from beyond movie block: to increase the companion count/variety like Thrarin, SoE, Rumil, BoH and Frodo Weary from the Journey or well balanced cards such as Naked Waste and Gondorian Blade.
- We should not be stingy with Frodo support, IE Hobbit Swords should be in the first two series starters. Each person had the capability of having 4 hobbit swords in series 2
- Twilight Choke should be limited as much as possible.
- Work with the Towers Standard X-List - and change it to no skirmish cancelling for the RB. Filibert Bolger/OEG are VERY bad cards if we are even considering having Nazgul be present in the format. Yes it hurts hobbit decks somewhat, but if everyone is guaranteed some manner of Frodo protection (Sword and Stealth/Intuition) it somewhat negates his fragility.
- We can probably use VERY limited rares, like was done with the Towers Starters in sets 5/6 if it will bring together a deck without making it too over powered. Possibly a limit of one per side per deck.
As far as deck types I think you could reasonably get by with some of the following without requiring too many additional cards outside of Towers Standard:
Fellowships
Ringbound Rangers
Shoulder to Shoulder
Mounted Rohan
The Three Hunters
Hobbits (possibly include Sam GEW) + Hobbit Hospital?
Knights
Pipes
Naiths/Elven Archery
???
Shadows
Twilight Nazgul focused on burdens
Beatdown Uruks (Berserkers?/Battleground?)
Uruk Trackers with conditions
Discard/swarm Dunland (Dunlending Rampager)
Moria
Archery
Sauron Trackers/grind
Warg Riders
???
I'll see what I can do to come up with some deck ideas, but I'll have limited time to do it. Easiest ones for me to come up with would likely be the Moria, Hobbit Hospital and Archery ones.
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Lots of options...my personal opinion is to do something as close to the current running standard as possible, like:
Serie 1: 4 booster choice, 1 booster from each set (1,4)
Serie 2: 1 booster choice (set 2 or set 5) 1 booster from each set (2,5)
Serie 3: 1 booster choice (set 3 or set 6) 1 booster from each set (3,6)
Serie 4: 5 or 6 booster choice
...I can't think of any other booster or "enhanced pack" that would be helpful to add in serie 4...I'm not sure if Reflections would be beneficial to add; it's always fun opening a Reflections pack in a sealed, but should it invade the TS sealed as well?
Keep Reflections out of it. No need for it to exist as the cards are an order of magnitude above most of the Towers cards from a power perspective and Isildur/Galadriel/Boromir/Gimli/Tom Bombadil would really skew things, but the rest of it looks good!
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Here is a stab at a Hobbit Hospital Variation - one rare, but a somewhat key rare:
Ring-bearer: Frodo, Reluctant Adventurer
Ring: The One Ring, The Ruling Ring
2x Boromir, Son of Denethor
1x Merry, From O'er the Brandywine
1x Pippin, Woolly-footed Rascal
1x Sam, Son of Hamfast
1x Farmer Maggot, Chaser of Rascals
4x Hobbit Party Guest
2x Rosie Cotton, Hobbiton Lass
1x Sword of Gondor
4x Hobbit Sword
3x Hobbit Intuition
3x Severed His Bonds
2x Swiftly and Softly
1x A Talent for Not Being Seen
2x There and Back Again
2x Knocked on the Head
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Thanks for moving this to the correct forum!
Keep Reflections out of it. No need for it to exist as the cards are an order of magnitude above most of the Towers cards from a power perspective and Isildur/Galadriel/Boromir/Gimli/Tom Bombadil would really skew things, but the rest of it looks good!
I agree. I think the other developers here would agree with this as well, and don't think there's a need to make this a forum voting matter.
- Starters should be designed from the ground up like the ones in the Movie Block sealed.
- We should limit the cards from sets beyond 1-6 fairly significantly. There were only 5 cards used from beyond movie block: to increase the companion count/variety like Thrarin, SoE, Rumil, BoH and Frodo Weary from the Journey or well balanced cards such as Naked Waste and Gondorian Blade.
While putting together a starter deck list, I really want to try to use the FotR and TT Starter decks as models, focusing a lot on multiple (usually two) copies of companions, a little possession support, and skirmish pumps for fellowship side/heavy minions, some skirmish pumps, and maybe a couple conditions that match the theme for shadow. Is this kind of what you meant by designing them from the ground up? I also agree that we won't need much more than 4 or 5 outside cards added...maybe just to make a certain theme that we really want to have to actually work.
- We should not be stingy with Frodo support, IE Hobbit Swords should be in the first two series starters. Each person had the capability of having 4 hobbit swords in series 2
- Twilight Choke should be limited as much as possible.
Great points. Euk mentioned that starters are designed so that you can play everything. I could see how with heavy choke as a theme, that would really squelch any shadows ability to cycle at all, as its not constructed and they aren't guaranteed to have an effective way to deal with twilight choke.
- Work with the Towers Standard X-List - and change it to no skirmish cancelling for the RB. Filibert Bolger/OEG are VERY bad cards if we are even considering having Nazgul be present in the format. Yes it hurts hobbit decks somewhat, but if everyone is guaranteed some manner of Frodo protection (Sword and Stealth/Intuition) it somewhat negates his fragility.
For this, I'm not sure if we need to enforce an X-list in sealed. I think as long as we don't propagate any of the X-listed cards heavily in the starter decks, they really wouldn't make too much of an impact. There is no running X-list for the Movie sealed...I think enforcing the X-list wouldn't really benefit as much as the fun it would take out of the sealed.
We have to consider that enforcing an X-list would also make some booster pulls rendered useless for some players, which is also very bad.... Even if someone did pull a Filibert Bolger, it shouldn't render a Twilight nazgul deck completely useless (they pack a few copies of the ally-wounding Attea, as well :) ).
The Movie sealed also allows for RB skirmish canceling. I don't think that it would hurt horribly to keep this as a rule as well, since in regular TS the RB skirmish can be canceled. Adding a couple stealths for any heavy hobbit deck would also give it a little more hope without ruining the format I think...
- We can probably use VERY limited rares, like was done with the Towers Starters in sets 5/6 if it will bring together a deck without making it too over powered. Possibly a limit of one per side per deck.
This could work OK...I think if we decide on a theme that everyone would really like to see...but through playtesting it clearly needs the support of just one key rare, maybe it wouldn't be the worst thing to give them a little bump.
I really like the Hobbit Hospital variation! Being able to discard and replay the unbound guys would create a great makeshift healing, and help them absorb a little archery. If we ended up deciding to nix rares for starter decks, you could always include a Hobbit Appetite/ Stout and Sturdy or two. Not really seen at all in constructed, but might not be too bad at all in Sealed :) Even Nice Imitation could be very useful as you get to decide when to use it to benefit you most.
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The Movie sealed also allows for RB skirmish canceling. I don't think that it would hurt horribly to keep this as a rule as well, since in regular TS the RB skirmish can be canceled. Adding a couple stealths for any heavy hobbit deck would also give it a little more hope without ruining the format I think...
Just a thought: there are no ways to cancel the RB skirmish in movie block outside of the lucky OEG or Filibert Bolger pull (and Filibert only works on Fierce). However in Towers, there are 2 skirmish cancelers for the RB which would give any deck containing them (Hobbit Themed) a distinct advantage over others through site 5.
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Just a thought: there are no ways to cancel the RB skirmish in movie block outside of the lucky OEG or Filibert Bolger pull (and Filibert only works on Fierce). However in Towers, there are 2 skirmish cancelers for the RB which would give any deck containing them (Hobbit Themed) a distinct advantage over others through site 5.
That's true...But I will say, my first concern was just the fact that RB skirmishes are allowed to be canceled in TS Format, and that maybe we might skew the format by changing that.
If we were concerned with the hobbit decks being too powerful, what we could do is just make their starters include Hobbit Intuition and Hobbit Stealth rather than the Towers Block stealths. This would leave it up to booster pulls. Or we could, alternatively, provide two Severed His Bonds in each Serie 1 Starter just so that everyone has at least a little capacity to cancel at sites 1 - 4.
Either way, I agree that its something to playtest. Whether or not it's something that we implement, the whole thing with stealths definitely needs a good amount of attention!
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Here's a rough draft for a Shoulder to Shoulder deck. Basic use allies to heal your companions strategy. Was worried that it might be a little on the strong side at first, but it is a little heavier on twilight to set up, and you need to get it set up.
Gimli, Unbidden Guest x2
Farin, Dwarven Emissary x2
Fror, Gimli's Kinsman x2
Legolas, Archer of Mirkwood x2
Haldir, Emissary of the Galadhrim x2
Grimir, Dwarven Elder
Thrarin, Dwarven Smith
Golradir, Councilor of Imladris
Saelbeth, Elven Councilor
Dwarven Axe/ Hand Axe/ Dwarven Bracers x2
Elven Sword x2
Hobbit Sword x2
Shoulder to Shoulder x2
Axe Strike/ Khazad Ai-menu x2
Valor/ Feathered/ Ancient Enmity x2
Up in the air about which skirmish events and Dwarven possessions to use, got a decent number of options.
Would one copy of Lend Us Your Aid be good, or just a little too strong and unnecessary? Guess that's what playtesting is for :)
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That's true...But I will say, my first concern was just the fact that RB skirmishes are allowed to be canceled in TS Format, and that maybe we might skew the format by changing that.
If we were concerned with the hobbit decks being too powerful, what we could do is just make their starters include Hobbit Intuition and Hobbit Stealth rather than the Towers Block stealths. This would leave it up to booster pulls. Or we could, alternatively, provide two Severed His Bonds in each Serie 1 Starter just so that everyone has at least a little capacity to cancel at sites 1 - 4.
Either way, I agree that its something to playtest. Whether or not it's something that we implement, the whole thing with stealths definitely needs a good amount of attention!
Looking at the starter deck lists that decipher implemented for the LOTR Online TCG, it appears that every fellowship block starter included 2 hobbit Intuitions and a weapon for Frodo. I think that would be a good start for all of the TS starters that we are planning on making. Levels the playing field and we could keep the RB Skirmish Cancel rule.
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My distribution suggestion:
Series 1: 2 Starter deck choices + 2 FotR booster, 2 TT booster, 2 booster choices
Series 2: 2 Starter deck choices + 2 packs of each MoM and BoHD
Series 3: 2 Starter deck choices + 2 packs of each RotEL and EoF
Series 4: 1 pack of each FotR, MoM, RotEL, TTT, BoHD and EoF
I also concur to include 2 Severed His Bonds as well as 2 Hobbit Sword in each deck for series 1 and 2, no more after, except for the swords.
I like Merrick's hospital, except for Maggot and that 2nd Rosie. 1 Bounder and something else should compliment that deck very good.
I think that Shoulder to Shoulder deck too powerful, maybe a deck for series 3. I encountered StS with Greenleaf and C/U dwarves in FotR Sealed and it proved very powerful. Sure, it does give twilight, but it also heals very easy.
That Naith elf deck I posted is a little too similar to BoHD Legolas starter. Scrap that.
As for that Wraith deck... how about this
2x Morgul Skulker
2x The Witch-king, Deathless Lord
3x Úlairë Attëa, The Easterling
3x Úlairë Enquëa, Ringwraith in Twilight
3x Úlairë Otsëa, Ringwraith in Twilight
3x Fell Beast
3x Nazgul Sword
3x It Wants to be Found
4x Threshold of Shadow
2x In Twilight
2x Moving This Way
As I said earlier, I like the burden idea, but not to corrupt, but to win skirmishes and deal some real damage.
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I like Merrick's hospital, except for Maggot and that 2nd Rosie. 1 Bounder and something else should compliment that deck very good.
How about this:
2x Aragorn, Wingfoot
2x Boromir, Son of Denethor
1x Merry, From O'er the Brandywine
1x Pippin, Woolly-footed Rascal
1x Sam, Son of Hamfast
2x Bounder
3x Hobbit Party Guest
1x Rosie Cotton, Hobbiton Lass
1x Sword of Gondor
3x Hobbit Sword
4x Hobbit Intuition
2x Knocked on the Head
2x Severed His Bonds
2x Swiftly and Softly
1x A Talent for Not Being Seen
2x There and Back Again
The reason for the Gaffer was that Merry is the main fighting companion and they are going to have a hard time double moving since they won't be able to clear the board and will be taking a lot of wounds. I thought that giving them some help from the Gaffer might plug a hole. I think that Wingfoot might help a bit more in that respect.
As for that Wraith deck... how about this
2x Morgul Skulker
2x The Witch-king, Deathless Lord
3x Úlairë Attëa, The Easterling
3x Úlairë Enquëa, Ringwraith in Twilight
3x Úlairë Otsëa, Ringwraith in Twilight
3x Fell Beast
3x Nazgul Sword
3x It Wants to be Found
4x Threshold of Shadow
2x In Twilight
2x Moving This Way
As I said earlier, I like the burden idea, but not to corrupt, but to win skirmishes and deal some real damage.
In Twilight seems like it could be ridiculously over powered. Granted it is going to be hard to get more than 2 Nazgul out there and it might only bounce twice: once in Normal, once in Fierce, but it almost seems better if the aim is to give them Burdening power to give them Blade tip as a synergy with 3U86 Ulaire Otsea, Ringwraith in Twilight. Plus it helps with card throughput as it is a free condition AND it is in the block. This deck has 2 cards from out of block and that is something we are trying to minimize.
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I really like this idea of a TS Sealed league... hope the new starters get through the approval of the Boss; it would be some much-needed new blood to this old game. The same as the Enhanced format concept proposed by Euk a year ago.
Hoping alone won't change anything, so here is my try with a couple of decks...
1. Shadow Archer deck, a 'Hate & Arrows' one:
(30 cards)
4x Uruk Crossbow Troop
4x Uruk Crossbowman
4x Goblin Bowman
3x Goblin Runner
3x Moria Archer Troop
3x Hate and Anger
2x One of You Must Do This
1x Saruman's Power
2x Host of Thousands
2x Saruman's Ambition
2x They Are Coming
Key sites:
4 White Mountains
5 Deep of Helm
7 Hornburg Causeway
9 Palantir Chamber
60% minions. This is a poorman's version of an Isengard/Moria Archery deck, which should use 3x Ranged Commander and at least 2x Weapons of Isengard. If there would be a rare per side, it should be Ranged Commander.
This deck is meant to work better as a reinforcement (Saruman's Ambition, Saruman's Power, Uruk Crossbow Troop, One of You Must Do This, Goblin Runner), and should be elegible at the second or third serie, complementing previous shadow decks like Moria (Goblin Marksman or Scavengers), Beatdown Uruks (with machines or events like ARfM) or Southrons (archer guys). Not to say the main piece, Hate and Anger, is of little use if you play a 30-cards shadow with some cycling potential...
2. Unconditional Dwarves, a Dwarf/Gandalf deck:
Ringbearer: Frodo, Reluctant Adventurer
(30 cards)
2x Dwarven Warrior
1x Farin, Dwarven Emissary
1x Fror, Gimli's Kinsman
1x Gimli, Lively Combatant
3x Gandalf, The Grey Pilgrim (maybe The White Wizard instead, as it is a 30 cards deck)
1x Grimir, Dwarven Elder
1x Barliman Butterbur, Prancing Pony Proprietor
2x Dwarven Axe
2x Dwarven Bracers
2x Hand Axe
1x Wizard Staff
1x Hobbit Sword
3x Axe Strike
1x Flurry of Blows
2x Mysterious Wizard
2x Sleep Caradhras
2x Hobbit Intuition
2x Dwarven Heart
Key sites:
maybe 6 Hornburg Armory
Cheap version of my Fellowship Daily deck, those 'pesky dwarves' as Eukalyptus once said. Indeed, there's a condition, but the idea is to blow it with Sleep Caradhras after healing a little bearded one with it... maybe Have Patience instead, but that would be less amusing ;).
This deck just doesn't mix with strategies based on Shoulder to Shoulder, Endurance of Dwarves, fortifications or any condition, and exerts Gandy and adds twilight each time he sweeps the table, so don't worry about it being overpowered. Strong against Uruk Trackers (and Sauron Grind if well timed), very weak against Archery.
Foreign cards are Gimli, Lively Combatant and Dwarven Warrior. For the latter, if anyone gets upset by the idea of a 6 strenght non-unique dwarf, you should worry more about those almost always 8 strenght Elite Riders...
As for cards from other sets, there are really more than 5 in Movie Sealed: Mr. Underhill, Maiden of Rivendell, Anarion, Forthwith Banished and Stormcrow. A total of 10 = 5 promo + 5 post Mount Doom.
There's my contribution, at least by now. By the way, I would REALLY love to see a Saruman centered shadow deck, as he is the main visible villain in the first two books/movies. But the only way of making him a fighter is a rare card (Saruman's Staff), and the only fighting version from further sets that has some gameplay connection with TS is a rare one too (Of Many Colours)... It rarely works, but I've wreaked havoc with Servant of the Eye + Saruman's Staff + Banner of Isengard and some threats and sites under my flag... Maybe just a mirage.
Hope this helps.
EDIT: Added 2 other key sites for Hate and Anger Archery deck.
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Looking at the starter deck lists that decipher implemented for the LOTR Online TCG, it appears that every fellowship block starter included 2 hobbit Intuitions and a weapon for Frodo. I think that would be a good start for all of the TS starters that we are planning on making. Levels the playing field and we could keep the RB Skirmish Cancel rule.
I definitely agree. One of the advantages to the TT Sealed Aragorn deck was simply the stealths. Like you suggest, I think it would be nice to invest in some stealth support for serie 1. Combining it with your suggestion for Hobbit swords, could it looks something like this?
Each deck in Serie 1: 2 Severed His Bonds, 2 Hobbit Sword
Each deck in Serie 2: 2 Hobbit Sword
Deciding on this ahead of time will help us decide on which Fellowships to run 1st and 2nd series, as there will be a tiny bit of investment for Frodo/Hobbits
My distribution suggestion:
Series 1: 2 Starter deck choices + 2 FotR booster, 2 TT booster, 2 booster choices
Series 2: 2 Starter deck choices + 2 packs of each MoM and BoHD
Series 3: 2 Starter deck choices + 2 packs of each RotEL and EoF
Series 4: 1 pack of each FotR, MoM, RotEL, TTT, BoHD and EoF
Looks great to me! I guess we are getting one more booster than usual per Serie 2 and 3, but I can't see that being such a major problem. I'd be happy to endorse this distribution.
I think that Shoulder to Shoulder deck too powerful, maybe a deck for series 3. I encountered StS with Greenleaf and C/U dwarves in FotR Sealed and it proved very powerful. Sure, it does give twilight, but it also heals very easy.
While it's a fun idea, I am worried about it being too strong. We can try to keep a close eye on it in play-testing. For those of us who have some extra time, it wouldn't hurt to play-test just above every possible combination per series, then post the replays here. If Shoulder to Shoulder just obliterates everything, we could see if it can be nerfed. If not, we'll just abandoned altogether.
2x Morgul Skulker
2x The Witch-king, Deathless Lord
3x Úlairë Attëa, The Easterling
3x Úlairë Enquëa, Ringwraith in Twilight
3x Úlairë Otsëa, Ringwraith in Twilight
3x Fell Beast
3x Nazgul Sword
3x It Wants to be Found
4x Threshold of Shadow
2x In Twilight
2x Moving This Way
As the Nazgul culture in general is very heavy in Uncommons (I think there were no commons at all at least through FotR), it would be extremely powerful for a starter deck if we over-capitalized on just the Nazgul cards. That's why I tried to incorporate some of those Sauron Wraiths. Low cost so your hand doesn't get too clogged if they are tyring to choke, and can work together with the Nazgul strategy in a very low-key way, which is good for a Starter deck. I don't think In Twilight is too overpowered here, but what I'm really worried about is x3 Nazgul Sword and Moving This Way. It's not uncommon for the Ringbearer to be running around with 3 burdens in sealed, and with the chance to have a Nazgul Sword on a Fierce Witch King quite often is pretty devastating. I remember in Movie sealed, those who pulled Nazgul Swords were sitting quite pretty. In the WotR Sealed, Moving This Way is definitely one of the most dynamic cards for the available shadows. It not only lets you cycle for free, but helps you set up a bomb for the last site. If you look at the Fellowships in WotR sealed that are standing up against this (Leader of the Company with G for Grand, etc), they are a lot more prepared for dealing with these kind of Nazgul...I fear that most fellowships in TS Sealed would get completely romped by this :S
1. Shadow Archer deck, a 'Hate & Arrows' one:
(30 cards)
4x Uruk Crossbow Troop
4x Uruk Crossbowman
4x Goblin Bowman
3x Goblin Runner
3x Moria Archer Troop
3x Hate and Anger
2x One of You Must Do This
1x Saruman's Power
2x Host of Thousands
2x Saruman's Ambition
2x They Are Coming
Key sites:
4 White Mountains
5 Deep of Helm
60% minions. This is a poorman's version of an Isengard/Moria Archery deck, which should use 3x Ranged Commander and at least 2x Weapons of Isengard. If there would be a rare per side, it should be Ranged Commander.
Cool idea! This would be a very neat take on the whole Archery type Shadow. If we went exclusively Moria/Isengard, it would definitely distinguish itself from the pre-existing Movie Sealed archery deck :D
2. Unconditional Dwarves, a Dwarf/Gandalf deck:
Ringbearer: Frodo, Reluctant Adventurer
(30 cards)
2x Dwarven Warrior
1x Farin, Dwarven Emissary
1x Fror, Gimli's Kinsman
1x Gimli, Lively Combatant
3x Gandalf, The Grey Pilgrim (maybe The White Wizard instead, as it is a 30 cards deck)
1x Grimir, Dwarven Elder
1x Barliman Butterbur, Prancing Pony Proprietor
2x Dwarven Axe
2x Dwarven Bracers
2x Hand Axe
1x Wizard Staff
1x Hobbit Sword
3x Axe Strike
1x Flurry of Blows
2x Mysterious Wizard
2x Sleep Caradhras
2x Hobbit Intuition
2x Dwarven Heart
Key sites:
maybe 6 Hornburg Armory
Cheap version of my Fellowship Daily deck, those 'pesky dwarves' as Eukalyptus once said. Indeed, there's a condition, but the idea is to blow it with Sleep Caradhras after healing a little bearded one with it... maybe Have Patience instead, but that would be less amusing ;).
This deck just doesn't mix with strategies based on Shoulder to Shoulder, Endurance of Dwarves, fortifications or any condition, and exerts Gandy and adds twilight each time he sweeps the table, so don't worry about it being overpowered. Strong against Uruk Trackers (and Sauron Grind if well timed), very weak against Archery.
Foreign cards are Gimli, Lively Combatant and Dwarven Warrior. For the latter, if anyone gets upset by the idea of a 6 strenght non-unique dwarf, you should worry more about those almost always 8 strenght Elite Riders...
As for cards from other sets, there are really more than 5 in Movie Sealed: Mr. Underhill, Maiden of Rivendell, Anarion, Forthwith Banished and Stormcrow. A total of 10 = 5 promo + 5 post Mount Doom.
I'm kind of intrigued by the Dwarven Heart then discard them with Sleep idea :D very unique, and as its kind of a back-door strategy to healing, and not really seen in constructed (I've only seen it once when combined with Axe of Erebor, which is pretty cool), it has kind of a Starter Deck feel to it.
The only thing I think we could develop would be the use of Dwarven Warrior...not because he's a generic 6/3 companion (we are gonna have Knights running around hopefully that are the same), but because of the discard two from top of the deck text. In the starter decks that I'm aware of the only cards that provide unconditional discarding from either hand or deck is limited to 1 per card. Uruk Warrior and Orc Inquisitor. That and as its not part of the original format, maybe they could be traded for some different dwarves?
Some general thoughts:
After looking at lots of starter deck lists, they seem to have 4, but usually no more than 5 additional companions per deck. I think it would be good for us to limit our decks to this number (of course there should be multiple copies of a unique companion). When done this way, it fosters more use from the boosters, and the combining of starter decks, or use of more skirmish events or possessions. For example, if you are decked out with 9 companions in the Knights deck, you could just stick with them the whole League. If they were limited to 4 or 5 companions (not including Frodo), then next Serie your choice of Starter deck, and the companions it contains would matter more, as you start to develop your own deck's identity :) This is kind of how I've observed sealeds to work, and I kind of like it...any thoughts?
Also on total card count. Movie Sealed does 30/30...I'm OK with that, but I'm inclined to bring it down to 27/27 or 28/28, if possible, to encourage more uniqueness among decks through the use of booster pulls. With 30/30, you might just end up seeing a bunch of clone decks with the only difference being the best rare booster pulls. What do you guys think?
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I really like the hate and anger deck. Looks fun!
I think that 30/30 is the way to go otherwise you have a hard time developing the theme sufficiently and you wind up with pretty bad filler cards. That is pretty much the way it is in any sealed league. Sealed with Decipher's original decks was pretty bad, particularly since they didn't include much Frodo protection outside of a sword. If we are mandating 1 sword +2 Severed His Bonds, that means that we are essentially at 27 cards to play with on the free people's side anyway.
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I really like the hate and anger deck. Looks fun!
I think that 30/30 is the way to go otherwise you have a hard time developing the theme sufficiently and you wind up with pretty bad filler cards. That is pretty much the way it is in any sealed league. Sealed with Decipher's original decks was pretty bad, particularly since they didn't include much Frodo protection outside of a sword. If we are mandating 1 sword +2 Severed His Bonds, that means that we are essentially at 27 cards to play with on the free people's side anyway.
That is true...Even if we did 28 cards a deck then the first series Fellowships would only have 24 cards dedicated to the theme. I guess if we kept the companion count per starter under control, that would foster enough individuality and variation among decks.
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I really like the hate and anger deck. Looks fun!
It IS fun! It's based on a 36 cards deck I played on TS some time ago, with 2x Weapons of Isengard instead of those One of You Must Do This, and with 3x Ranged Commander... before adding 2x Shotgun Enquëa, I lost many games, after that little change it wrecked almost everything.
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As suggested by BigRedMF, here's a quick look at an Isengard Men deck, supported by Isengard Orcs. If we used it as a Serie 1 or 2 starter deck, it might work. The deck itself also touches on the Isengard Orc theme without making them overpowered by combining orcs from sets 3 and 6.
Grima, SoG x3
Unferth, GB x3
Rohirrim Traitor x4
Saruman, SotE x3
Isengard Retainer x2
Isengard Servant x2
Isengard Smith x2
Isengard Worker x2
Desertion x4
Twisted Tales
Men Will Fall x4
I think the support of Isengard Smith might make it a tad more viable for the men to possibly win a skirmish or two. Even if they aren't winning them, a decent number of wounds are going out.
The idea of the deck isn't so much to take down the big companions in skirmishes, but harass them in assignments. Among Desertion, Saruman, SotE and Unferth, you should be annoying them at least a little. Men Will Fall, as a pump is pretty strong. There are usually at least one or two unbound companions around in sealed, and it can be used in a skirmish involving an orc as well.
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If Shoulder to Shoulder just obliterates everything, we could see if it can be nerfed.
Goblin Scrabbler, Saruman's Power, Shadow's Reach, Gate Sentry, Orc Patrol, Their Power Is In Terror, Too Long Have These Peasants Stood come to my mind...
The only thing I think we could develop would be the use of Dwarven Warrior...not because he's a generic 6/3 companion (we are gonna have Knights running around hopefully that are the same), but because of the discard two from top of the deck text. In the starter decks that I'm aware of the only cards that provide unconditional discarding from either hand or deck is limited to 1 per card.
Every other decent dwarf is unique (that is, everyone minus the guard), and the only non-rare unique dwarf that doesn't use rules from further sets - besides the aforementioned - is Thrarin, Smith of Erebor, an outsider from TS. 2 of him seems a great trade, or 1 additional copy of each Farin and Fror if you want this to be just nazgul lunch...
In fellowship block games, I start Gimli and one of those 'F' dwarves: Fror if my opponent has a 37/37 or less cards deck, or Farin if he has more; thus I only need one copy of each. It really works. If there's doubt about the shadow you're facing, start Fror as uruk stomps are far heavier, and none of them take advantage against Nazgul.
As suggested by BigRedMF, here's a quick look at an Isengard Men deck, supported by Isengard Orcs. If we used it as a Serie 1 or 2 starter deck, it might work. The deck itself also touches on the Isengard Orc theme without making them overpowered by combining orcs from sets 3 and 6.
Grima, SoG x3
Unferth, GB x3
Rohirrim Traitor x4
Saruman, SotE x3
Isengard Retainer x2
Isengard Servant x2
Isengard Smith x2
Isengard Worker x2
Desertion x4
Twisted Tales
Men Will Fall x4
I think the support of Isengard Smith might make it a tad more viable for the men to possibly win a skirmish or two. Even if they aren't winning them, a decent number of wounds are going out.
The idea of the deck isn't so much to take down the big companions in skirmishes, but harass them in assignments. Among Desertion, Saruman, SotE and Unferth, you should be annoying them at least a little. Men Will Fall, as a pump is pretty strong. There are usually at least one or two unbound companions around in sealed, and it can be used in a skirmish involving an orc as well.
If you want to take this idea farther away, splash 1 copy or 2 of Wizard Storm, and pair it with an easy rider fellowship, with Calaglin or Wingfoot for example... that Hobbit Hospital with Aragorn seems enough (although it is a hospital only for Sam, as The Gaffer and Farmer Maggot are rares). And if there's a rare per side, Saruman's Staff to destroy 2 previously exhausted little ones.
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Every other decent dwarf is unique (that is, everyone minus the guard), and the only non-rare unique dwarf that doesn't use rules from further sets - besides the aforementioned - is 2x Thrarin, Smith of Erebor, an outsider from TS. 2 of him seems a great trade, or 1 additional copy of each Farin and Fror if you want this to be just nazgul lunch...
In fellowship block games, I start Gimli and one of those 'F' dwarves: Fror if my opponent has a 37/37 or less cards deck, or Farin if he has more; thus I only need one copy of each. It really works. If there's doubt about the shadow you're facing, start Fror as uruk stomps are far heavier, and none of them take advantage against Nazgul.
Between Gandalf, Gimli, and that heavy possession support, I don't think you would be Nazgul lunch necessarily haha. You could splash a couple Dwarf Guard meat shields...
Alternatively, if you wanted to get really weird with this deck you could change Gimli back to a set 1 - 6 guy, and add Dasron, Merchant from Dorwinion supported by Stout and Strong hahaha
That's probably too format warping.
Thanks for the tip on the Wizard Storm...maybe that would be a good swap for Twisted Tales...
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In respect to that Shoulder to Shoulder deck, it just can't heal those allies without Elrond. A poorman's version should use Friends of Old and more allies, maybe A Royal Welcome too.
Between Gandalf, Gimli, and that heavy possession support, I don't think you would be Nazgul lunch necessarily haha. You could splash a couple Dwarf Guard meat shields...
The problem happens when you don't start with a Dwarven Axe (or 2 +1 strenght different possessions) or some skirimish events, or even so if you play Gandalf because of his twilight cost. Maybe I'm just paranoid, as this won't have that fierce Attea or Lord of Angmar, and this is a 30/30 deck instead of 40/40, with less chances of bad starting draws...
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Maybe I'm just paranoid, as this won't have that fierce Attea or Lord of Angmar, and this is a 30/30 deck instead of 40/40, with less chances of bad starting draws...
Very true...also remember that a dwarf deck in this league will function quite a bit different then in Fellowship. Since Nazgul are their tough point, they might actually not do bad at all, since the site path doesn't have Bree Streets and the dreaded site 3 river. Also, like you mentioned, it's not constructed, so you shouldn't be going up against str 12+ fierce minions on every move :)
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Would In Twilight really be such a bad idea? It costs 2, and as said, you'll most likely never get more than two Nazgul out at once AND have to win skirmishes/survive archery. I can see Moving This Way to be thrown out for more minions, but In Twilight I think a good idea. And Twilight Nazgul are virtually unplayable, except for maybe this format.
Another idea:
3x Easterling Lieutenant
2x Morgul Skulker
2x The Witch-king, Deathless Lord
3x Úlairë Attëa, The Easterling
3x Úlairë Enquëa, Ringwraith in Twilight
3x Úlairë Otsëa, Ringwraith in Twilight
3x Fell Beast
2x Nazgul Blade
3x It Wants to be Found
4x Threshold of Shadow
2x Blade Tip
Yes, Nazgul Blade is outside of TS, but it only gives 1 strength, 2 if at a battleground or one of the possible site 2. But the damage bonus is gone. And I do think they'd need weapons to win skirmishes, Fell Beast alone wouldn't be of any help against Rohan or even Dwarves. Plus, they have to survive archery first.
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Again I would caution about using cards outside of the block. In the 9 decks for the Movie Block Sealed, there were 5 cards that were from outside the block and those were primarily to make decks that wouldn't have come together otherwise and come to think of it, ALL of them were Free People's cards. There weren't any non-rare dwarves that were worth playing outside of Thrarin, Rumil wasn't too powerful and was a decent 6/3 comp that fit with the theme, frodo gave some swarm protection the sword had some usefulness without giving too much utility given the site mechanics of RotK and the gollum pump was, well situationally useful. Let's focus on building decks with the cards on hand in the block and if we NEED to get something from out of block, we go with that.
I'd have to play test, but I don't fundamentally think that Nazgul sword + fell beast would be too problematic. It is a 3+2 card combo that will die hard to mounted Rohan or archery given the general twilight cost. Yes it will give hobbits fits depending on when it drops, but each deck has to have some weakness...
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Would In Twilight really be such a bad idea? It costs 2, and as said, you'll most likely never get more than two Nazgul out at once AND have to win skirmishes/survive archery. I can see Moving This Way to be thrown out for more minions, but In Twilight I think a good idea. And Twilight Nazgul are virtually unplayable, except for maybe this format.
Another idea:
3x Easterling Lieutenant
2x Morgul Skulker
2x The Witch-king, Deathless Lord
3x Úlairë Attëa, The Easterling
3x Úlairë Enquëa, Ringwraith in Twilight
3x Úlairë Otsëa, Ringwraith in Twilight
3x Fell Beast
2x Nazgul Blade
3x It Wants to be Found
4x Threshold of Shadow
2x Blade Tip
Yes, Nazgul Blade is outside of TS, but it only gives 1 strength, 2 if at a battleground or one of the possible site 2. But the damage bonus is gone. And I do think they'd need weapons to win skirmishes, Fell Beast alone wouldn't be of any help against Rohan or even Dwarves. Plus, they have to survive archery first.
Ok, I have to admit, I like this one a lot.
I think Nazgul Blade is just a perfect fit. It takes away the Damage +1, without making it a completely useless card, since TS has a decent number of Battleground sites. Brilliant!
I don't think In Twilight is a bad idea, really. It helps Nazgul a little with one of their struggles: cycling, and won't be abused because you won't be getting 4 Nazgul on the field like the Forest 'Gulz. That, and since there are no Lurker minions, the FP player can assign and resolve skirmishes strategically to minimize the effect of it. Personally, I think it's an OK addition. Would it be possible to make a constructed league, just for testing our TS sealed decks that are using cards from other sets, by making "additionally valid" sets for the league?
One last thought: the Easterling Lieutenant splash is effective...but to keep the whole twilight theme going, could it be swapped for a Wisp of Pale Sheen? Both cards are the same cost, strength, and vitality, and both carry the potential to add 1 burden :)
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Again I would caution about using cards outside of the block. In the 9 decks for the Movie Block Sealed, there were 5 cards that were from outside the block and those were primarily to make decks that wouldn't have come together otherwise and come to think of it, ALL of them were Free People's cards. There weren't any non-rare dwarves that were worth playing outside of Thrarin, Rumil wasn't too powerful and was a decent 6/3 comp that fit with the theme, frodo gave some swarm protection the sword had some usefulness without giving too much utility given the site mechanics of RotK and the gollum pump was, well situationally useful. Let's focus on building decks with the cards on hand in the block and if we NEED to get something from out of block, we go with that.
I'd have to play test, but I don't fundamentally think that Nazgul sword + fell beast would be too problematic. It is a 3+2 card combo that will die hard to mounted Rohan or archery given the general twilight cost. Yes it will give hobbits fits depending on when it drops, but each deck has to have some weakness...
I guess I overlooked that In Twilight was technically a Rare card...while I'm not against using cards outside of a set every once in a while (especially ones as generic and innocent as Nazgul Blade), I don't really like the idea of using rare cards...
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A couple general thoughts before another proposed deck list...
Regarding matching a Fellowship theme with a Shadow theme. Starter decks have usually seemed to be matched so that the fellowship of the deck performs well against the shadow of its deck.
Some quick examples would be the FotR starters (men with armor are great against the Uruks, Gandalf can discard the Moria orcs' conditions), and the TT and BoHD starters (Mounted Rohan companions punish the battleground uruks and wargs by taking away their vitality, Aragorn, Wingfoot clobbers the low vitality Dunland, and Southrons fill up well with wounds to make the Lorien Swordsman able to go up against them even when they are mounted).
If possible, maybe we could try to do our match ups more of less along these lines? I don't know if there was a rhyme or reason for Decipher doing it that way...
I noticed Knights and Rohan Men with Gandalf support are both fairly popular. The starter decks before now have never really focused on the keywords Knight and Valiant. Euk has already started developing Knights, so I'm going to try to develop a Rohan/Gandalf deck that uses Valiant companions.
Even though the generic "Knight" and "Valiant" companions are just a 6/3 guy, I think it would be good to use them. There are a few nice rares that capitalize in the Knight and Valiant keywords, and it would be really cool for people in this sealed league to have a starter deck option that would facilitate the use of those rares.
I do agree with Euk that the number of Knights provided in the starter should be limited, as it shouldn't be obscenely easy for the FP player to just spot three knights for free transfers of CotS . However, I think giving Valiant a little love would be quite cool!
I'm almost done with it, then I will post my deck idea for this.
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Again I would caution about using cards outside of the block. In the 9 decks for the Movie Block Sealed, there were 5 cards that were from outside the block...
There are actually 5 more outsider cards in Revised Movie Sealed, as those promos aren't really from any block: Frodo, Mr. Underhill; Arwen, Maiden of Rivendell; Anarion, Lord of Anorien; Eomer, Forthwith Banished and Gandalf, Stormcrow. Free peoples cards too. That leaves only 5 other (useful) promos to possibly add: Gimli, Dwarven Delegate; Erkenbrand, Master of Westfold; Ghan-Buri-Ghan, Chieftain of the Woses; Tom Bombadil's Hat and Boromir, Steward's Heir.
The Hat and Erkenbrand would be overpowered in my opinion, so shouldn't be used at all. That Gimli could very well replace Lively Combatant in those Unconditional Dwarves. But the main potential relies on the other 2 cards:
Ghan (with armor) would be very useful in a Rohan or Gondor deck (Gandalf-supported or not), mainly as a very hard (and sometimes wide) meat shield. And that Boromir is just fascinating, you can try to make a Knight deck with some Ringbound-Ranger tricks like Ranger's Bow, Curse Them or the very underrated New Errand (could go together with Men of Numenor)... or plain Ranger tricks, like Gondor's Vengeance, No Stranger to the Shadows or Pathfinder.
Dmaz, I hope these tips help you to develop your Valiant Rohirrim and Knights decks... There are other cards you could try for Gondor that are worth of mention: Gondor Will See It Done, Blood of Numenor, Mortal Men.
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In previous sealeds, I feel like Rohan comes up decent...but the spotlight is often stolen by an alternative Aragorn or Gandalf starter deck.
For our TS sealed, maybe we can give Rohan a competitive deck, without going overboard and making them overpowered.
Simply adding Gandalf and Trust Me As You Once Did is a huge advantage to any deck. Just look at how well Hobbits can perform in the Movie sealed with it.
This being the case, there were a couple things I did with the deck, to "nerf" it, so to speak, so that this wouldn't be the ONLY deck to chose for its respective serie.
1. Removed Elite Rider. Quite often a base strength of 8. Add a spear and TMAYOD, and it's a beast.
2. Removed Eomer
3. Focused on a little Valiant dynamics as opposed to heavy skirmish support. I think the bonus of TMAYOD + x4 An Honorable Charge would have been almost overkill
4. Decided to pull Gandalf's Wisdom out...having the opportunity to play all of those Rohan possessions for no twilight is a little much.
Anyway, here it is:
FELLOWSHIP:
Frodo, Mr. Underhill
Eowyn, Daughter of Eomund x2
Theoden, King of the Golden Hall x2
Household Guard x2
Gandalf, The White Wizard x2
Guma, Plains Farmer
Weland, Smith of the Riddermark
Ecglaf, Courageous Farmer
Brego
Rider's Mount x2
Herugrim x2
Rider's Spear x3
Rohirrim Bow x2
Hobbit Sword x2
Wizard Staff
Trust Me As You Once Did x2
Parapet
Let Us Be Swift
An Honorable Charge x2
SHADOW:
Berserk Rager x2
Uruk-Hai Berserker x4
Uruk Engineer x2
Uruk Sapper x3
Uruk Slayer x2
Uruk Shaman x2
Uruk-hai Raiding Party x3
Broad Bladed Sword x3
Uruk Spear
Battering Ram x2
Siege Engine
Assault Ladder x3
Bred for Battle x2
Black Shapes Crawling
The Shadow is a basic run at Berserkers with Machines. Didn't add x4 pumps as Assault Ladder is meant to function as a pump. This could probably be developed a little bit. I like the idea of playing a Black Shapes Crawling to pull Broad Bladed Swords if you have two Berserkers out. Cool dynamics :)
Ghan (with armor) would be very useful in a Rohan or Gondor deck (Gandalf-supported or not), mainly as a very hard (and sometimes wide) meat shield. And that Boromir is just fascinating, you can try to make a Knight deck with some Ringbound-Ranger tricks like Ranger's Bow, Curse Them or the very underrated New Errand (could go together with Men of Numenor)... or plain Ranger tricks, like Gondor's Vengeance, No Stranger to the Shadows or Pathfinder.
I think the Promos are great...to the extent that we are not using ones that are as powerful as rares. Anarion was pushing it. I think Ghan-Buri-Ghan would be a little too much. He just has the feel of a rare to him...Just my opinion though. I DO think that Boromir would be sweet though :)
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I like that Rohan freeps, but it seriously lacks companions. I agree that Elite Rider should never be included in any deck unless pulled from a pack. Also, I think 2 mounts are sufficient, as is 1 Herugrim. I'd add an Arrow Slits and at least a Proper Poet and 1 Hrethel. Maybe Gandalf could be changed to Grey Pilgrim to not have exclusively Gandalf signet companions out.
The Uruk shadow I like a lot, except for Black Shapes Crawling. That could kill one or two minions easily. Its a very nice idea, but is it really necessary? Definately go 3 Breds and 2 Ladders. Those Ladders can be very devastating late game, where Bred may not even be usable.
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Gondor Trust Me
Ring-bearer: Frodo, Tired Traveller
Ring: The One Ring, The Ruling Ring
3x Gandalf, Stormcrow
1x Ghân-buri-Ghân, Chieftain of the Woses
2x Aragorn, Heir of Elendil
2x Boromir, Defender of Minas Tirith
2x Faramir, Son of Denethor
1x Ranger of Ithilien
1x Barliman Butterbur, Prancing Pony Proprietor
1x Wizard Staff
2x Armor
2x Sword of Gondor
2x Hobbit Sword
2x Wielder of the Flame
3x Swordarm of the White Tower
2x Severed His Bonds
1x Gandalf's Wisdom
2x Trust Me as You Once Did
1x Citadel of the Stars
I think Tired Traveler a better choice than Mr. Underhill since he doesn't choke. Gandalf doesn't contribute anything other than being able to be spotted for various things and Ghan-buri-Ghan has been discussed before. And I don't think Wielder of the Flame has been given any thought outside being a spoiler news back when MoM wasn't out yet.
It's one of the stronger decks, so for series 3 only imo.
And regarding Whisps: yeah they would work, too.
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I like that Rohan freeps, but it seriously lacks companions. I agree that Elite Rider should never be included in any deck unless pulled from a pack. Also, I think 2 mounts are sufficient, as is 1 Herugrim. I'd add an Arrow Slits and at least a Proper Poet and 1 Hrethel. Maybe Gandalf could be changed to Grey Pilgrim to not have exclusively Gandalf signet companions out.
The Uruk shadow I like a lot, except for Black Shapes Crawling. That could kill one or two minions easily. Its a very nice idea, but is it really necessary? Definately go 3 Breds and 2 Ladders. Those Ladders can be very devastating late game, where Bred may not even be usable.
Regarding the machines, that is a good point. If the Fellowship doesn't have any condition control (which is common in sealed), then this shadow could just pile up ladders like crazy and nibble away at them to wait for an overwhelm at site nine...I'll pull out the Black Shapes Crawling as well...guess I tried to get too cutesy haha.
Regarding companion count - I found it common to see only 4 to 5 companions, and sometimes 6 with the FotR and TT starters. I kind of like that you need to get creative and use what you pull from boosters. Rohan does tend to run a little bit more by way of companions than the more robust "mains" decks, so maybe I could cap it at 7 total companions by adding a Proper Poet or another Household Guard :)
The Gondor Trust deck is VERY powerful. If it tends to dominate in any play testing we might do with it, there are always very easy tweaks to make like switching Boromir or Ghan, or pulling Citadel of the Stars, etc. I like the idea of Wielder of the Flame! It would be really cool if it saw some more action! Normally a completely overlooked card
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This Ranger deck is probably the one that I've been most excited about, took a decent amount of time making it into something good for a serie 2 starter.
I made it so there is flexibility with choosing your starting companions. You could go classic Boromir/Merry or Faramir/Arwen for a twist.
The only card outside of the format is Aragorn, Guide and Protector. I think out of all of the suggested out of format cards (aside from Nazgul Blade, suggested by Euk), this one is one of the least format-warping, and it's not overpowered. I chose this one because the only other Aragorn options that were rangers were either the signet based or rare. It will probably fit well, though I'll have to see in play testing. I think it might be a good matchup with the twilight Nazgul deck...
Frodo, Son of Drogo
Faramir, Ithilien Ranger x2
Boromir, Defender of Minas Tirith x2
Aragorn, Guide and Protector x2
Arwen, Elven Rider x2
Merry, From oer the Brandywine x2
Bounder
Sword of Gondor x3
Hobbit Sword x2
Frying Pan
Asfaloth
Athelas x2
Boromir's Gauntlets
No Stranger to the Shadows
Might of Numenor
Swordsman of the Northern Kingdom x3
Dagger Strike x2
Severed His Bonds
Pathfinder
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Nerfed Gondor deck:
Ring-bearer: Frodo, Tired Traveller
Ring: The One Ring, The Ruling Ring
3x Gandalf, The Grey Wizard
2x Aragorn, Heir of Elendil
2x Boromir, Defender of Minas Tirith
2x Faramir, Son of Denethor
1x Pippin, Mr. Took
1x Barliman Butterbur, Prancing Pony Proprietor
1x Wizard Staff
2x Armor
2x Sword of Gondor
2x Hobbit Sword
2x Wielder of the Flame
3x Swordarm of the White Tower
1x Noble Intentions
2x Severed His Bonds
1x Gandalf's Wisdom
2x Trust Me as You Once Did
1x Citadel of the Stars
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I like that Rohan freeps, but it seriously lacks companions. I agree that Elite Rider should never be included in any deck unless pulled from a pack. Also, I think 2 mounts are sufficient, as is 1 Herugrim. I'd add an Arrow Slits and at least a Proper Poet and 1 Hrethel. Maybe Gandalf could be changed to Grey Pilgrim to not have exclusively Gandalf signet companions out.
The Uruk shadow I like a lot, except for Black Shapes Crawling. That could kill one or two minions easily. Its a very nice idea, but is it really necessary? Definately go 3 Breds and 2 Ladders. Those Ladders can be very devastating late game, where Bred may not even be usable.
Black Shapes Crawling may be amazing if well played... an unexhausted Uruk Shaman with lots of twilight and an Uruk Spear in discard pile, for example. And no one forces you to spot all your uruks when you play it thus you can control the cost very well, you can spot 0 of X just to discard it; you can even protect a vulnerable uruk with a Broad Bladed Sword prior to playing it. It's better combo is after exerting Berserk Butcher twice, which won't happen for rarity reasons...
The point of only 2x Assault Ladder is a good one though. But I'd add a second Black Shapes Crawling or Uruk Spear instead of a third Bred... just to explore overlooked possibilities.
Dmaz, as for Hrethel, don't add him if you don't want to add an Elite Rider with +1 strenght. He + any mount can be like Ghan-Buri-Ghan, extremely hard to overwhelm... but even worse: able to win skirimishes and use pumps or weapons... Add Ghan instead, or another Household Guard as you said.
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This Ranger deck is probably the one that I've been most excited about, took a decent amount of time making it into something good for a serie 2 starter.
I made it so there is flexibility with choosing your starting companions. You could go classic Boromir/Merry or Faramir/Arwen for a twist.
The only card outside of the format is Aragorn, Guide and Protector. I think out of all of the suggested out of format cards (aside from Nazgul Blade, suggested by Euk), this one is one of the least format-warping, and it's not overpowered. I chose this one because the only other Aragorn options that were rangers were either the signet based or rare. It will probably fit well, though I'll have to see in play testing. I think it might be a good matchup with the twilight Nazgul deck...
Frodo, Son of Drogo
Faramir, Ithilien Ranger x2
Boromir, Defender of Minas Tirith x2
Aragorn, Guide and Protector x2
Arwen, Elven Rider x2
Merry, From oer the Brandywine x2
Bounder
Sword of Gondor x3
Hobbit Sword x2
Frying Pan
Asfaloth
Athelas x2
Boromir's Gauntlets
No Stranger to the Shadows
Might of Numenor
Swordsman of the Northern Kingdom x3
Dagger Strike x2
Severed His Bonds
Pathfinder
What about Wingfoot? He's a Ranger and you have Merry in the deck. GaP is a bit OP with all those events (especially Dagger Strike). He easily disposes of a big minion. Wingfoot could make the double a bit more efficient, removing an exhausted minion from the board.
I'd also cut one Dagger Strike for a second Pathfinder (Rangers after all) and one of the Hobbit weapons. 1 Sword and 1 Pan are sufficient enough, though I'm against Pan if we include an Orc based shadow. Too big an advantage with all those healing possibilities included.
After thinking about it, we shouldn't include Ghan-buri-Ghan in any of the decks. You say In Twilight is basically a rare, GBG is a R+, just like Glorfindel from the same P set.
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What about Wingfoot? He's a Ranger and you have Merry in the deck. GaP is a bit OP with all those events (especially Dagger Strike). He easily disposes of a big minion. Wingfoot could make the double a bit more efficient, removing an exhausted minion from the board.
I'd also cut one Dagger Strike for a second Pathfinder (Rangers after all) and one of the Hobbit weapons. 1 Sword and 1 Pan are sufficient enough, though I'm against Pan if we include an Orc based shadow. Too big an advantage with all those healing possibilities included.
After thinking about it, we shouldn't include Ghan-buri-Ghan in any of the decks. You say In Twilight is basically a rare, GBG is a R+, just like Glorfindel from the same P set.
Thanks for the input! Wingfoot would definitely be better, not sure how I forgot about him!
Well heard on the Dagger Strikes and Hobbit weapons as well. Bare minimum is fine, and allow for the rest to work its way out in the booster pulls.
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After thinking about it, we shouldn't include Ghan-buri-Ghan in any of the decks. You say In Twilight is basically a rare, GBG is a R+, just like Glorfindel from the same P set.
I don't think there's really any need to replace Nazgul Sword for Nazgul Blade or In Twilight, after all you said the deck builds up burdens to get advantages and not to corrupt... and I don't see any advantages to be used with X burdens in any of those Twilight Nazgul decks posted, except for Nazgul Sword, Threshold of Shadow and (maybe) Twilight Enquea. Nazgul strike the sooner the better, and this sitepath doesn't help at all.
In absence of rare cards, twilight nazzies have a hard time focusing on working only one single goal by themselves: either wounding the ringbearer or adding direct burdens. So 3 burdens may be a very realistic goal... Let's think about this ideal scenario: Twilight Enquea + Fell Beast + In Twilight = a 15 strenght fierce minion. That may be awesome, but what for? Most of the time, 2 wounds on Aragorn and 2 on the ringbearer. Next turn opponent plays Hobbit Appetite for Destruction (or Hard Choice)... that's all folks!
1. Wounding the RB: 3x or 4x Resistance Becomes Unbearable can pave the way to Enquea, but those hard-to-build wounds must be added as soon as possible and must be preserved from healing. You Bring Great Evil, Orc Assassin and Under the Watching Eye should help on that purpose. The latter doesn't exert necessarily the ringbearer, but if a fighter gets exerted your chances of using The Witch's gametext are greatly increased...
(30 cards)
1x Morgul Skulker
4x Orc Assassin
1x Orc Cutthroat
2x The Witch-king, Deathless Lord
3x Ulaire Attea, The Easterling
3x Ulaire Enquea, Ringwraith in Twilight
3x Ulaire Otsea, Ringwraith in Twilight
3x Fell Beast
2x Nazgul Sword
3x Resistance Becomes Unbearable
3x Under the Watching Eye
2x You Bring Great Evil
Key Sites:
1 Western Emyn Muil
4 White Mountains
8 Nan Curunir or Valley of Saruman
Probably needs some tweaking. 6 Sauron Orcs + 11 Nazgul = 56,7% minions. Not a single skirimish event unfortunately, but it's focused on grinding Frodo instead. If there are 2 hobbit comps on the table, Orc Assassin can be a nice surprise (unless Weary From the Journey is added to this sealed). Lacks the Blade Tips too, so Otsea is just a twilight guy this time; those could be added to a Beatdown Nazgul deck from another serie.
2. Direct Burdens: This one is harder to build in the absence of Easterlings (but those can be neglected by RB Rangers very well). 4x It Wants to Be Found and 2x Drawn to Its Power should work, with pumps to overwhelm and to give Ulaire Otsea, RiT a chance to put that Blade Tip on Frodo...
(30 cards)
2x Morgul Skulker
2x The Witch-king, Deathless Lord
3x Ulaire Attea, The Easterling
3x Ulaire Enquea, Ringwraith in Twilight
3x Ulaire Otsea, Ringwraith in Twilight
3x Fell Beast
2x Nazgul Sword
4x It Wants to be Found (or 3x, + 1 Their Power Is In Terror)
4x Threshold of Shadow (or 3x, and an additional Nazgul Sword)
2x Blade Tip
2x Drawn to Its Power
Key Sites:
Same as above
This looks more like a Beatdown Nazgul deck.... that's the objective here; Nazgul Sword makes a huge difference if Drawn To Its Power and 3 burdens are on the table. Sam, SoH with Rosie Cotton, HL can wreck it, so 1x Their Power Is In Terror could be added if The Witch King and Attea are found to be not enough. Those Wisp of Pale Sheen are out since they hardly would survive against a Rohan, Dwarf or Shoulder to Shoulder deck; they are more viable if played at the regroup phase with Peril (or Spied From Above), but that would need a bunch of Sauron Orcs with good vitality (Orc Pillager for example)...
I like the idea of a Peril / Teeth of Mordor deck, maybe I'll build and post a deck in the coming days. Those wraiths would fit there very well, but not here unfortunately.
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After thinking about it, we shouldn't include Ghan-buri-Ghan in any of the decks. You say In Twilight is basically a rare, GBG is a R+, just like Glorfindel from the same P set.
In respect to Ghan-Buri-Ghan, he can't bear weapons nor use pumps (except for An Honourable Charge or TMaYOD), so rarely would beat something stronger than Gollum or a Goblin Runner.
We can't really say he's overpowered: he isn't a Valiant, Damage +1 rohirrim with the twilight cost of an unbound hobbit like Eomer, Forthwith Banished; nor a banner-weaver turned by Peter Jackson into a fighter, with a shareable version of Gimli, Son of Gloin's skill like Arwen, Maiden of Rivendell; nor the great Anarion; he can't choke or feed TMaYOD like Frodo, Mr. Underhill. He hasn't even the Aragorn signet to be healed, so can't be compared to Boromir, LoG. He's only an amusing, tasteful and tough meat shield....
By the way, those Hobbit Hospital decks listed before can heal only Sam, as Farmer Maggot, CoR & The Gaffer, SF are rare cards. The other hobbits need Hobbit Appetite instead of so many copies of Hobbit Party Guest. Or maybe pipes...
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For Twilight Nazgul, I'm leaning more towards Euk's latest version, with a couple slight additions. The deck has kind of evolved towards burden adding for corruption, which I think fits well with the Twilight Nazgul theme.
The Witch-king, Deathless Lord x2
Ulaire Attea, The Easterling x3
Ulaire Enquea, Ringwraith in Twilight x3
Ulaire Otsea, Ringwraith in Twilight x3
Ulaire Nertea, Winged Hunter x2
Morgul Skulker x2
Wisp of Pale Sheen x3
Fell Beast x2
Nazgul Blade x2
It Wants to be Found x3
Threshold of Shadow x3
Blade Tip x2
I think this version of Ulaire Nertea is a great addition to our Twilight Nazgul deck, as a starter deck. It's a cheap minion and the shadow player should be able to make decent use of its game text as starter decks tend to run multiculture quite often.
In respect to Ghan-Buri-Ghan, he can't bear weapons nor use pumps (except for An Honourable Charge or TMaYOD), so rarely would beat something stronger than Gollum or a Goblin Runner.
We can't really say he's overpowered: he isn't a Valiant, Damage +1 rohirrim with the twilight cost of an unbound hobbit like Eomer, Forthwith Banished; nor a banner-weaver turned by Peter Jackson into a fighter, with a shareable version of Gimli, Son of Gloin's skill like Arwen, Maiden of Rivendell; nor the great Anarion; he can't choke or feed TMaYOD like Frodo, Mr. Underhill. He hasn't even the Aragorn signet to be healed, so can't be compared to Boromir, LoG. He's only an amusing, tasteful and tough meat shield....
Yeah...the more I think about Ghan, now that you mention all of these points, I have to admit that I don't see him as overpowered. I initially just dismissed him, but the only thing you can really buff him with other than Armor, is Flaming Brand or Horse of Rohan. He doesn't really end up being a super-beast...
I guess we could say that the only reason we wouldn't end up using him would be because he's a rare, and whether or not we decide to just cut off all rares from starter decks so one thing doesn't lead to another...
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@Euk
Now that we are close to playtesting the decks, would it be at all possible to create a special league for playtesting.
For example, make it Towers Standard, with "additionally valid" everything else, and no X-list, just so we're not limited. Not sure if you're able to manipulate a league that way.
Also, since it would technically be a league, could you make it with no prizes awarded, or just cancel it before it ends?
Just some thoughts :)
Working on some ideas for Easterling/Gollum for you guys to evaluate.
@Everyone
Some other themes that are pretty popular so far, if anyone else would like to take a shot at making some deck lists, feel free to get involved!!
Fellowship:
Three Hunters
Help in Doubt and Need (Gondor/Rohan)
SHADOW:
Uruk Trackers
Sauron Trackers
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Cool deck ideas, love the hate and anger one. Here is an idea for an [Isengard] tracker deck, just to get the ball rolling for you guys (feel free to change it as you see fit):
Uruk Pursuer x3
Uruk Seeker x3
Uruk Runner x3
Uruk Scout x3
Uruk Chaser x3
Uruk Searcher x2 (uncommon)
Uruk Hunter x2 (uncommon)
Ulaire Enquea, Lieutenant of Morgul (crowd control)
Kill Them Now x2
Still They Came x2
Many Riddles x3
Weary x3
30 cards, 20 minions 4 events 6 conditions no possessions (trackers go light). Conditions pump your guys up and weaken opponent's big characters. Any good tracker pulls fit right in with the deck. I hate having 5 or 6 copies of a card in sealed hence no more than 3 copies of each card.
Here are some other card options so you guys don't have to look around as much:
Uruk Foot Soldier, useless [Isengard] tracker
Uruk Plains Runner, 2 twilight 7-1 [Isengard] tracker
Uruk-hai Raiding Party, classic [Isengard] starter card
Uruk Fighter / Uruk Warrior, (semi) [Isengard] crowd control
Grima, Son of Galmod, works with the conditions
Rohirrim Traitor, same as Grima
Unferth, if you go the hybrid [Isengard] man route
Isengard Smith, possession control
Saruman, Servant of the Eye, harassment + synergy with Brought Back Alive
Broad-bladed Sword, armor/pump
Uruk Spear, toss the horses
Abandoning Reason for Madness, cycling
Breeding Pit, bring back the good trackers
Brought Back Alive, adds some targeting but would probably be too strong with Saruman SotE and Weary
Bred for Battle, Still They Came has a better shot against mounts than Bred (in my opinion)
Vengeance, a little too good for a starter (unless the trackers wind up getting destroyed in playtesting)
One of You Must Do This, if you go the harassment theme
Scaling Ladder, counter horses/Elite Rider
The Misadventure of Mr. Underhill, it's a rare but it would make the FP player hesitate from dropping too many companions at once, also fits the search/tracker theme
I also like tracker decks because it makes Fearing the Worst a good pull in sealed, haha
Hope this helps, best of luck with the deck building!
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Yeah...the more I think about Ghan, now that you mention all of these points, I have to admit that I don't see him as overpowered... I guess we could say that the only reason we wouldn't end up using him would be because he's a rare, and whether or not we decide to just cut off all rares from starter decks so one thing doesn't lead to another...
He technically is a Promo, not a Rare... If we're going to exclude all Promos, that would leave out Frodo, Mr. Underhill, Gandalf, Stormcrow, Boromir, Steward's Heir and Gimli, Dwarven Delegate. Those give versatility and flavor, without beign OP.
Maybe the criterion should be instead the 'exclusion of every Promo card which represents something not included in the movies' ('Grasshopper criterion' ;)): Erkenbrand, Tom Bombadil's Hat, Anarion and Ghan-Buri-Ghan. 'Overpowered criterion' too: Eomer, Forthwith Banished and Arwen, Maiden of Rivendell should be out. That seems pretty fair to me.
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Granted, GBG is not as OP as other cards, but I do think Boromir SH OP. Arwen MoR not. Why? She can exert 2 times and that's it until the next sanctuary or healing card. Eomer is OP, no denying that.
Easterling sample deck, corruption:
1x Gollum, Nasty Treacherous Creature
1x Gollum, Old Villain
4x Easterling Axeman
4x Easterling Guard
4x Easterling Lieutenant
2x Easterling Polearm
2x Nasty, Foul Hobbitses
4x We Must Have It
3x Gathering to the Summons
3x Men of Rhun
2x Evil-smelling Fens
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Granted, GBG is not as OP as other cards, but I do think Boromir SH OP. Arwen MoR not. Why? She can exert 2 times and that's it until the next sanctuary or healing card. Eomer is OP, no denying that.
Boromir, Steward's Heir has three keywords, that might look overpowered. But all those three are unloaded, thus don't give him anything by himself; he hasn't even any other gametext nor signet. His power comes from combination, and there ain't no way of combine directly the gameplay of Knights and Ringbound Rangers (even with King Block fortifications). Versatility is the only power I can see on him, and that versatility may require too much card slots to give him great power.
Arwen, Maiden of Rivendell is exactly the opposite: alike Boromir, she can't be considered OP by herself, but her combos may be very well: gets healed with ease by Archer of Mirkwood (starting fellowship), Shoulder to Shoulder or That Is No Orc Horn without the need of stopping. Legolas, AoM may behave similarly with Gimli, UG, except that the dwarf would give +2 strenght to Legolas only, and each should need different possessions and skirimish pumps (using more card slots and possibly clogging hand). It would be very easy to build a deck with those combos (even I could do it): Arwen + Legolas at start, + Naith elves with TINOH, + Shoulder to Shoulder with allies = few skirimishes would be lost... Feels like a rare card.
Easterling sample deck, corruption:
1x Gollum, Nasty Treacherous Creature
1x Gollum, Old Villain
4x Easterling Axeman
4x Easterling Guard
4x Easterling Lieutenant
2x Easterling Polearm
2x Nasty, Foul Hobbitses
4x We Must Have It
3x Gathering to the Summons
3x Men of Rhun
2x Evil-smelling Fens
As an Easterlings deck, I like it very much. Simple and effective. As a Gollum + Easterlings deck I can't say the same: Stinker is the center of the whole theme and isn't available, so Gollum (almost) can't add burdens and won't get benefits from them. Evil-smelling Fens may be useful though...
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Easterling sample deck, corruption:
1x Gollum, Nasty Treacherous Creature
1x Gollum, Old Villain
4x Easterling Axeman
4x Easterling Guard
4x Easterling Lieutenant
2x Easterling Polearm
2x Nasty, Foul Hobbitses
4x We Must Have It
3x Gathering to the Summons
3x Men of Rhun
2x Evil-smelling Fens
As an Easterlings deck, I like it very much. Simple and effective. As a Gollum + Easterlings deck I can't say the same: Stinker is the center of the whole theme and isn't available, so Gollum (almost) can't add burdens and won't get benefits from them. Evil-smelling Fens may be useful though...
Gollum will win skirmishes from his game text and that will lend to burdens with Nasty Foul Hobbitses. The combo even without Stinker is OK, remember we're just making starter decks, not a strategy as it would look in its best form. Also, just throwing in two Evil Smelling Fens really gives this deck a boost. That card is quite often underestimated, going up against a fellowship that probably doesn't have condition discard it's almost like having 2 more copies of your best rare minion pull.
I won't post my version of this, I think this one is a little better. What I would recommend is swapping Nasty Treacherous Creature for a second Old Villain just to help always have a Gollum out that can win a skirmish. I also think this would be a good deck to give a Shotgun Enquea.
Maybe we could match this with the Ringbound deck? :)
Frodo, Tired Traveler
Sam, Proper Poet x2
Faramir, Son of Denethor 0P16 x2 <- gotta use the fun alternate images when we can :)
Damrod, Ranger of Ithilien
Anborn, Skilled Huntsman
Gondorian Ranger x2
Sword of Gondor x4
Coat of Mail x2
Ranger's Bow x3
Hobbit Sword x3
Ithilien Trap
Severed His Bonds x2
Swordsman of the Northern Kingdom x2
War and Valor x2
Dagger Strike x2
What are They?
Too many pumps? Maybe I'm missing one of those other random set 4 RB events that are cool...could swap for one of the dagger strikes...What do you guys think?
With the two severed his bonds, I'm thinking it could be a decent serie 1 deck. Was kind of going for just the standard, companions-pumps-possessions starter deck approach without bells and whistles.
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Also, just throwing in two Evil Smelling Fens really gives this deck a boost. That card is quite often underestimated, going up against a fellowship that probably doesn't have condition discard it's almost like having 2 more copies of your best rare minion pull.
Evil-Smelling Hens can even bring back 2 burden-adding Easterlings, and that may hammer the last nail to the coffin ;).
Cool deck ideas, love the hate and anger one. Here is an idea for an [Isengard] tracker deck, just to get the ball rolling for you guys (feel free to change it as you see fit):
Uruk Pursuer x3
Uruk Seeker x3
Uruk Runner x3
Uruk Scout x3
Uruk Chaser x3
Uruk Searcher x2 (uncommon)
Uruk Hunter x2 (uncommon)
Ulaire Enquea, Lieutenant of Morgul (crowd control)
Kill Them Now x2
Still They Came x2
Many Riddles x3
Weary x3
Thanks Idleninja for your help, we need as many as we can muster ;). This looks well balanced. I'd center it around Uruk Searcher as it's a real fighting machine, 4x. Other than that, looks very good.
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For Twilight Nazgul, I'm leaning more towards Euk's latest version, with a couple slight additions. The deck has kind of evolved towards burden adding for corruption, which I think fits well with the Twilight Nazgul theme.
The Witch-king, Deathless Lord x2
Ulaire Attea, The Easterling x3
Ulaire Enquea, Ringwraith in Twilight x3
Ulaire Otsea, Ringwraith in Twilight x3
Ulaire Nertea, Winged Hunter x2
Morgul Skulker x2
Wisp of Pale Sheen x3
Fell Beast x2
Nazgul Blade x2
It Wants to be Found x3
Threshold of Shadow x3
Blade Tip x2
I think this version of Ulaire Nertea is a great addition to our Twilight Nazgul deck, as a starter deck. It's a cheap minion and the shadow player should be able to make decent use of its game text as starter decks tend to run multiculture quite often.
The deck is way too dispersed...
I like the idea of Nertea, except for he would be the only support to Twilight Enquea in the Ringbearer-wounding mechanism, and that depends on a variable that's outside your reach. Would work better with Resistance Becomes Unbearable or Under the Watching Eye, or even Orc Assassin if you spot 2 hobbit comps. Nevertheless, can be devastating against the Three Hunters or any fellowship with 4 cultures or more...
Only 2 Fell Beast seem too little, because they will end up most of the time as visible pumps instead of a way of making a key nazgul fight twice (as Enquea).
Besides, Nazgul Blade would be better than Threshold of Shadow ONLY IF: a) bearer is fierce; or b) you can't spot 5 burdens AND the site is a battleground... otherwise is just a +1 strenght visible pump. Nazgul Sword could be overpowered if the deck made burdens with ease, but as most of the time Wisp of Pale Sheen won't survive and Enquea will wound a non-exhausted Frodo, by the time 3x It Wants to be Found gather 3 burdens your opponent's fellowship will have Armor or heavy fighters to counter the damage bonus... IMO add Nazgul Sword instead, a 4th IWtbF and a pump, or even 2x Frozen by Fear for the surprise element.
As for Wisp of Pale Sheen, it depends on either Peril or Spied From Above to be played at regroup. I think I ditched Spied From Above too early: there are 11 Nazgul with 3 or more vitality, so unless they face a rohan felowship or heavy wounding there could be 2 exertions available on the same nazgul at regroup phase. Otherwise Not Easily Destroyed could heal some wounds..... That would be 2x Spied From Above + 1x Not Easily Destroyed. The latter can turn Shotgun Enquea into a 'Gatling Enquea', that could be OP.
Conclusion: it has no focus. So it can't corrupt, by no means. The RB-wounding path is crippled since there's no Witch King, LotN; go the burden way instead: 4x It Wants To Be Found, 2x Nazgul Sword and 2x Drawn To Its Power, with many pumps to win/overwhelm and 3x Fell Beast to repeat the assault.
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Maybe we could match this with the Ringbound deck? :)
Frodo, Tired Traveler
Sam, Proper Poet x2
Faramir, Son of Denethor 0P16 x2 <- gotta use the fun alternate images when we can :)
Damrod, Ranger of Ithilien
Anborn, Skilled Huntsman
Gondorian Ranger x2
Sword of Gondor x4
Coat of Mail x2
Ranger's Bow x3
Hobbit Sword x3
Ithilien Trap
Severed His Bonds x2
Swordsman of the Northern Kingdom x2
War and Valor x2
Dagger Strike x2
What are They?
Too many pumps? Maybe I'm missing one of those other random set 4 RB events that are cool...could swap for one of the dagger strikes...What do you guys think?
With the two severed his bonds, I'm thinking it could be a decent serie 1 deck. Was kind of going for just the standard, companions-pumps-possessions starter deck approach without bells and whistles.
New Errand, Arrows Thick In The Air and Curse Them are those tricks you mentioned. Pathfinder or Gondor's Vengeance could be added to that list... ;D
3 bows may be a little overpowered, with 5 rangers to share them and too fast to set-up. I would remove one.
There's a problem anyway: lacks Smeagol. That leaves it as a Ringbound Rangers deck, with a surname, and Smeagol should go in another one, maybe a Frodo, Sam and Smeagol themed deck, with discard-Smeagol mechanics. I would love to see that!
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The deck is way too dispersed...
It follows the basic format of the Deluxe Starter for FotR with some minor adaptions for TS. It should fine.
Remember, we can't expect too much out of these decks by themselves. They aren't supposed to function like a constructed deck. It's not supposed to have a seamless strategy where every card will be 100% useful all the time. It's just a starter deck :)
If we made every deck a perfect list of all of the right cards it would hinder and deter individuality in deck construction and use of boosters. If we take a look at the starter decks from FotR through RotK there is a clear pattern of basic build. I don't think we should stray far from that.
In any case we'll be playtesting all of these to see what works and what doesn't. :)
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There's a problem anyway: lacks Smeagol. That leaves it as a Ringbound Rangers deck, with a surname, and Smeagol should go in another one, maybe a Frodo, Sam and Smeagol themed deck, with discard-Smeagol mechanics. I would love to see that!
Hmmmm, good point. I could drop a Gondorian Ranger for a Smeagol, Old Noser. I agree with the 3 bows being too many as well.
I forgot about Smeagol since I was working more with him on the Smeagol/Hobbits deck. I think it could be really fun, but my rough draft might need everyone's help! :)
The generic strategy for the deck is to make use of burdens with the hobbits, and have Smeagol win a couple skirmishes to trigger Not Listening.
Frodo, Master of the Precious
Sam, Nice Sensible Hobbit
Merry, From Oer the Brandywine
Pippin, Woolly-Footed Rascal x3
Smeagol, Poor Creature
Boromir, Son of Denethor
Rosie Cotton, Hobbiton Lass
Hobbit Sword x4
Poor Wretch x4
Follow Smeagol
Rare Good Ballast
A Talent for not Being Seen
Kept Safe
Severed His Bonds x2
Hobbit Intuition x2
Don't Follow the Lights
It Burns Us
Mind Your Own Affairs x2
Not Listening x2
The deck is low in companion count, but for this theme, that is intentional. With all of the Hobbit support, it shouldn't be easy for them to get overwhelmed (once you get a sword on Sam he can easily take on a Nazgul). Since the idea of the deck was to have some fun with the Smeagol cards, there's a decent amount of "shenanigans" that he can pull off as well.
Because of Smeagol being the "star" of the deck, it's a little more involved than the typical Companion/Pump/Possession run. Probably not too powerful for serie 1, but better for serie 2 or 3 I guess.
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Evil-Smelling Hens can even bring back 2 burden-adding Easterlings, and that may hammer the last nail to the coffin ;).
I'm interesting in how this does playtesting. If it struggles a little bit against every fellowship we could always splash an Easterling Pillager as an out-of-format card, that would be cool :)
Also, regarding Ghan, I can agree that its technically a promo. And the points you made so far on him really do qualify him as Ok, and not too overpowered for a starter I think :)
Anyway, he's got my vote. If everyone else is OK with at least playtesting him as a serious candidate he could be in :)
Maybe he could be switched for the other out of format card in your deck (Dwarven Warrior)?
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For everyone interested in drafting starter deck lists, we still have these that haven't been touched :)
Fellowship:
The Three Hunters
Help in Doubt and Need
Shadow:
Sauron Trackers
Southrons
Warg Riders
Moria
I'm going to check into Dunland soon....
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Maybe he could be switched for the other out of format card in your deck (Dwarven Warrior)?
Gimli, Lively Combatant and Dwarven Warrior are out, replaced respectively by Gimli, Dwarven Delegate and by 1 copy of those 'F' dwarves Farin and Fror. Ghan would be great if he could spot dwarves for his skill. Such a pity!
For everyone interested in drafting starter deck lists, we still have these that haven't been touched :)
Fellowship:
The Three Hunters
Help in Doubt and Need
Shadow:
Sauron Trackers
Southrons
Warg Riders
Moria
I'm going to check into Dunland soon....
Here's my try at Sauron Trackers, or 'Perilous Trackers':
2x Gate Sentry
2x Orc Assassin
2x Orc Butcher
3x Orc Cutthroat
2x Orc Insurgent
3x Orc Patrol
2x Orc Pillager
2x Orc Scouting Band
3x I'd Make You Squeak
2x Peril
3x Teeth of Mordor
4x Under the Watching Eye
Key Sites:
1 Western Emyn Muil
4 White Mountains
60% minions, 10 trackers out of 18. This is almost self-explanatory: Under The Watching Eye grinds the fellowship and I'd Make You Squeak makes profit with that. At the regroup phase, Peril plays minions in hand for free and if there's any remaining twilight, Teeth of Mordor preserves surviving minions for another fight. Gate Sentry and Orc Patrol against conditions. Orc Butcher can be a huge beast of 18 strenght at the end :twisted:, that's the reason there are only 2 in the deck.
May be modified if it's overpowered, or if we want to incline it towards something specific: Vile Blade and Orc Scimitar as pumps, Mordor's Strength for grind, Forces of Mordor for swarm, Memory of Many Things against allies, Orc Fighter (or Orc Infantry with Peril) for site control... Wisp of Pale Sheen for burdens, but I still haven't found any way of using them.
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I forgot about Smeagol since I was working more with him on the Smeagol/Hobbits deck. I think it could be really fun, but my rough draft might need everyone's help! :)
The generic strategy for the deck is to make use of burdens with the hobbits, and have Smeagol win a couple skirmishes to trigger Not Listening.
Frodo, Master of the Precious
Sam, Nice Sensible Hobbit
Merry, From Oer the Brandywine
Pippin, Woolly-Footed Rascal x3
Smeagol, Poor Creature
Boromir, Son of Denethor
Rosie Cotton, Hobbiton Lass
Hobbit Sword x4
Poor Wretch x4
Follow Smeagol
Rare Good Ballast
A Talent for not Being Seen
Kept Safe
Severed His Bonds x2
Hobbit Intuition x2
Don't Follow the Lights
It Burns Us
Mind Your Own Affairs x2
Not Listening x2
The deck is low in companion count, but for this theme, that is intentional. With all of the Hobbit support, it shouldn't be easy for them to get overwhelmed (once you get a sword on Sam he can easily take on a Nazgul). Since the idea of the deck was to have some fun with the Smeagol cards, there's a decent amount of "shenanigans" that he can pull off as well.
Because of Smeagol being the "star" of the deck, it's a little more involved than the typical Companion/Pump/Possession run. Probably not too powerful for serie 1, but better for serie 2 or 3 I guess.
There's an unbalance in respect of burdens: 8 cards that add burdens (Frodo, Smeagol, 2x Mind Your Own Affairs, Don't Follow the Lights and 3x Pippin), and only 2x Not Listening to remove them... I would ditch Pippin and use 3x Boromir instead. I'd use Sam, SoH instead, 2x Rosie Cotton and 1 or 2 Hobbit Party Guest to keep burdens at bay... maybe You Must Help Us to heal hobbits and soak wounds with Smeagol (replay with Frodo) if Poor Wretch and Follow Smeagol are out... I don't know really, I'm speculating as haven't any experience about it. ;)
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There's an unbalance in respect of burdens: 8 cards that add burdens (Frodo, Smeagol, 2x Mind Your Own Affairs, Don't Follow the Lights and 3x Pippin), and only 2x Not Listening to remove them... I would ditch Pippin and use 3x Boromir instead. I'd use Sam, SoH instead, 2x Rosie Cotton and 1 or 2 Hobbit Party Guest to keep burdens at bay... maybe You Must Help Us to heal hobbits and soak wounds with Smeagol (replay with Frodo) if Poor Wretch and Follow Smeagol are out... I don't know really, I'm speculating as haven't any experience about it. ;)
Yeah you're right...either we'd need to swap Sam, cut back on the burden adding cards, or change the strategy...
The only card I was able to find within the format that discards Smeagol to your benefit is A Rare Good Ballast...even then its very situation dependent...am I missing something?
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Here's my try at Sauron Trackers, or 'Perilous Trackers':
2x Gate Sentry
2x Orc Assassin
2x Orc Butcher
3x Orc Cutthroat
2x Orc Insurgent
3x Orc Patrol
2x Orc Pillager
2x Orc Scouting Band
3x I'd Make You Squeak
2x Peril
3x Teeth of Mordor
4x Under the Watching Eye
Key Sites:
1 Western Emyn Muil
4 White Mountains
60% minions, 10 trackers out of 18. This is almost self-explanatory: Under The Watching Eye grinds the fellowship and I'd Make You Squeak makes profit with that. At the regroup phase, Peril plays minions in hand for free and if there's any remaining twilight, Teeth of Mordor preserves surviving minions for another fight. Gate Sentry and Orc Patrol against conditions. Orc Butcher can be a huge beast of 18 strenght at the end :twisted:, that's the reason there are only 2 in the deck.
May be modified if it's overpowered, or if we want to incline it towards something specific: Vile Blade and Orc Scimitar as pumps, Mordor's Strenght for grind, Forces of Mordor for swarm, Memory of Many Things against allies, Orc Fighter (or Orc Infantry with Peril) for site control... Wisp of Pale Sheen for burdens, but I still haven't found any way of using them.
Really cool! I like the combination of Peril with Teeth of Mordor :) if the fellowship adds a lot of twilight to, for example, get Gandalf, The White Wizard to his strength 10, then you could essentially use Peril to get a minion down free and stack him on Teeth immediately.
I liked your suggestion for Forces of Mordor...I would love to see it swapped for one I'd Make You Squeak....but I'm worried it would make a site 9 bomb too easy if you plan well with teeth.
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Remember, we can't expect too much out of these decks by themselves. They aren't supposed to function like a constructed deck. It's not supposed to have a seamless strategy where every card will be 100% useful all the time. It's just a starter deck :)
If we made every deck a perfect list of all of the right cards it would hinder and deter individuality in deck construction and use of boosters. If we take a look at the starter decks from FotR through RotK there is a clear pattern of basic build. I don't think we should stray far from that.
In any case we'll be playtesting all of these to see what works and what doesn't. :)
As starter decks, they should have a chance to win. Twilight Nazgul deck won't swarm, so there are 2 other options: beatdown and corruption. As dispersed as it is by now, won't corrupt unless the opponent bids very high at start. Thus it should kill companions one by one, and it has those lame Nazgul Blades instead of Swords, and too little pumps + mounts to overwhelm IMO... The burden version I gave is actually a corruption and a beatdown deck, piles up burdens when killing and beats heavier when there are burdens.
We don't want to release decks like Mines of Moria Gandalf/Moria, with a shadow that just can't do anything efficiently (Frenzy would have been a great combo with Goblin Spear, but wasn't there)... or Boromir's, that one is even worse.
If the Twilight Nazgul deck goes for serie 1, any non-free peoples victory would be very rare.
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:uh-huh:
Yeah you're right...either we'd need to swap Sam, cut back on the burden adding cards, or change the strategy...
The only card I was able to find within the format that discards Smeagol to your benefit is A Rare Good Ballast...even then its very situation dependent...am I missing something?
No Help For It is a rare... Be Back Soon too. It leaves only Rare Good Ballast to discard him, with a condition/possession/ally regroup ability... A Royal Welcome? Follow Smeagol, but would discard itself... Rally Point! Rohirrim Shield or Rohirrim Scout... Thandronen... Lorien Guardian... Haldir at a battleground...
Smeagol, Old Noser could do it. Believe it or not, maybe Fortress Never Fallen can do it without spotting a rohirrim... Dinendal, Calaglin and Galdor can indeed.
The rest are all rares: Elrond, HtGG, Lembas, Glamdring, Forests of Ithilien, Thror's Map, EoF Merry & Pippin...
... Be Back Soon and No Help For It are rares... Dang... :'(
Son of Hamfast should be your Sam, with Bounder or stealths to prevent his death. He + 2x Rosie + Hobbit Party Guest.
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Really cool! I like the combination of Peril with Teeth of Mordor :) if the fellowship adds a lot of twilight to, for example, get Gandalf, The White Wizard to his strength 10, then you could essentially use Peril to get a minion down free and stack him on Teeth immediately.
I liked your suggestion for Forces of Mordor...I would love to see it swapped for one I'd Make You Squeak....but I'm worried it would make a site 9 bomb too easy if you plan well with teeth.
I'd Make You Squeak should be no less than 3, you need it ASAP to get twilight from grind, and use those tons of twilight for Teeth of Mordor, even better if the Free Peoples player adds with skirimish events... as twilight should be abundant, Orc Scimitar could be a great pump too (but Vile Blade can be cheaper)... maybe change Gate Sentry for Orc Swordsman to get a big fighter...
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Those Nazgûl were never intended to corrupt, Durins Heir. Those burdens were thought to be the benefit of Treshold and Nazgûl Sword (which was replaced by Blade, but Blade is useful on 2,5,7,8,9). And to add burdens, you unfortunately need Twilight Nazgûl. Since there aren't that many to choose from, the available three have multiple copies. The effect of Enquea is just a nice bonus and not the goal of the game. Plus, the synergy between Nertea and Enquea is there.
So, the full deck proposal:
Ring-bearer: Frodo, Tired Traveller
Ring: The One Ring, The Ruling Ring
Adventure deck:
East Wall of Rohan
Uruk Camp
Barrows of Edoras
Ered Nimrais
Hornburg Parapet
Hornburg Armory
King's Room
Wizard's Vale
Palantir Chamber
Free Peoples Draw Deck:
2x Faramir, Ithilien Ranger
2x Gondorian Ranger
2x Ranger of Ithilien
2x Sam, Samwise the Brave
1x Boromir's Gauntlets
2x Ranger's Bow
3x Sword of Gondor
2x Hobbit Sword
1x Dagger Strike
1x Elendil's Valor
3x Swordsman of the Northern Kingdom
2x War and Valor
1x What Are They?
2x Severed His Bonds
1x City Wall
1x Garrison of Osgiliath
1x Ithilien Trap
1x There and Back Again
Shadow Draw Deck:
2x Gollum, Old Villain
4x Easterling Axeman
4x Easterling Guard
4x Easterling Lieutenant
2x Easterling Polearm
2x Nasty, Foul Hobbitses
4x We Must Have It
3x Gathering to the Summons
3x Men of Rhun
2x Evil-smelling Fens
What did I change and why:
Faramir - Son of Denethor is splashed in almost every deck where Gondor is in so far. He's a nice change, a starting companion and has a good synergy with Ranger Bow/Gauntlets and isn't overpowered with his healing ability.
Sam - Frodo alone can remove 4 burdens with his game text.
Items - I cut 1 of each possession as they would be either too much (Hobbit Sword) or too powerful (4 SoG and 3 bows). Added one Gauntlets for flavor and to escape that one minion. Possibly.
Events - having one defender is a nice thing. Events are self explaining. I don't think they're too much.
Damrod - we are at 7 companions as it is. Another one is pushing it.
Fortifications - Garrison belongs in there and City wall is nice to prevent from being overwhelmed. Once. I was going to use Citadel first, but with Bow and Trap it would be too easy to dispose of a big minion.
No Enquea - adding burdens is way easy and adding Enquea together with two Fens would result in a slaughter fest.
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Those Nazgûl were never intended to corrupt, Durins Heir. Those burdens were thought to be the benefit of Treshold and Nazgûl Sword (which was replaced by Blade, but Blade is useful on 2,5,7,8,9). And to add burdens, you unfortunately need Twilight Nazgûl. Since there aren't that many to choose from, the available three have multiple copies. The effect of Enquea is just a nice bonus and not the goal of the game. Plus, the synergy between Nertea and Enquea is there.
So, the full deck proposal:
Ring-bearer: Frodo, Tired Traveller
Ring: The One Ring, The Ruling Ring
Adventure deck:
East Wall of Rohan
Uruk Camp
Barrows of Edoras
Ered Nimrais
Hornburg Parapet
Hornburg Armory
King's Room
Wizard's Vale
Palantir Chamber
Free Peoples Draw Deck:
2x Faramir, Ithilien Ranger
2x Gondorian Ranger
2x Ranger of Ithilien
2x Sam, Samwise the Brave
1x Boromir's Gauntlets
2x Ranger's Bow
3x Sword of Gondor
2x Hobbit Sword
1x Dagger Strike
1x Elendil's Valor
3x Swordsman of the Northern Kingdom
2x War and Valor
1x What Are They?
2x Severed His Bonds
1x City Wall
1x Garrison of Osgiliath
1x Ithilien Trap
1x There and Back Again
Shadow Draw Deck:
2x Gollum, Old Villain
4x Easterling Axeman
4x Easterling Guard
4x Easterling Lieutenant
2x Easterling Polearm
2x Nasty, Foul Hobbitses
4x We Must Have It
3x Gathering to the Summons
3x Men of Rhun
2x Evil-smelling Fens
What did I change and why:
Faramir - Son of Denethor is splashed in almost every deck where Gondor is in so far. He's a nice change, a starting companion and has a good synergy with Ranger Bow/Gauntlets and isn't overpowered with his healing ability.
Sam - Frodo alone can remove 4 burdens with his game text.
Items - I cut 1 of each possession as they would be either too much (Hobbit Sword) or too powerful (4 SoG and 3 bows). Added one Gauntlets for flavor and to escape that one minion. Possibly.
Events - having one defender is a nice thing. Events are self explaining. I don't think they're too much.
Damrod - we are at 7 companions as it is. Another one is pushing it.
Fortifications - Garrison belongs in there and City wall is nice to prevent from being overwhelmed. Once. I was going to use Citadel first, but with Bow and Trap it would be too easy to dispose of a big minion.
No Enquea - adding burdens is way easy and adding Enquea together with two Fens would result in a slaughter fest.
Looks like a winner for playtesting. Serie 1 or 2 deck you think?
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Series 1 should be okay.
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General thought on timing of decks for each serie.
To facilitate usefulness of booster pulls, we could do the best we can to have the deck for each serie match the types of cards from which boosters they will be pulling for that serie.
Example: The majority of Uruk Trackers are in Two Towers (with Berserkers/Wargs and Isengard Orcs/Men shining in Sets 5 and 6 respectively). Because people will be opening Towers boosters for Serie 1, it would be more productive to put the Uruk Trackers deck in Serie 1.
Just some musings on matchups:
Serie 1:
The Three Hunters/Uruk Trackers
Ringbound Companions/Easterlings with Gollum
Dwarves with Gandalf/Archery
Serie 2:
Knights/??
Rangers/Twilight Nazgul
Rohan with Gandalf/Berserkers
Serie 3:
Hobbit Hospital Hybrid with Smeagol?/Isengard Men
Shoulder to Shoulder/Sauron Trackers
Help in Doubt and Need-Elven Archery-Ents-Last Alliance/Moria-Stupid Swarm-News of Mordor....
I think there are definitely some matches that stand out well, but by the time we get to Serie 3 we probably need to think what would make decently strong deck. The only one I'm pretty sure about is Shoulder to Shoulder with Durins Heir's Sauron Tracker idea. I think they are definitely complimentary in the way most starter decks are (fellowship is strong against its own shadow).
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The only card I was able to find within the format that discards Smeagol to your benefit is A Rare Good Ballast...even then its very situation dependent...am I missing something?
There's a common condition that discards him at regroup: 7C65 Never. It's an outsider card though, but can get the strategy running without rares from Towers Block; other than discarding Smeagol, wouldn't do anything at all.
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Those Nazgûl were never intended to corrupt, Durins Heir. Those burdens were thought to be the benefit of Treshold and Nazgûl Sword (which was replaced by Blade, but Blade is useful on 2,5,7,8,9). And to add burdens, you unfortunately need Twilight Nazgûl. Since there aren't that many to choose from, the available three have multiple copies. The effect of Enquea is just a nice bonus and not the goal of the game. Plus, the synergy between Nertea and Enquea is there.
I apologize if I have bothered anyone or robbed too much time with thoughts about the nazgul deck; these will be my last words on the debate. There are other points and decks that need our attention.
As Twilight Nazgul appear in Set 2, using Dmaz's idea of matching decks with boosters (brilliant!), that deck should go in Serie 2. That way, it would be a natural extension of the Easterings + Gollum deck from First Serie... thus burdens can very well abound; otherwise, as a 1st Serie deck can't stand on its own to build 5 burdens in order to get additional benefits from only Threshold of Shadow and lacks those useful Nazgul Swords. 5 burdens is too much for this deck alone, by that time the fellowship is set up....
That Sauron Trackers deck I proposed should be in the First Serie as Sauron Orcs are mainly from set 1, and that way it can also reinforce the RB-wounding side of this nazgul deck and use Peril to play Wisps at regroup; as a standalone deck Nertea + Enquea would be most of the time a 10 twilight combo profitable only if you can spot 4 or more FP cultures, AND there aren't other ringbound comps to share the exertions. There's synergy, but insufficient.
The deck by itself has no natural chance of swarming, way too little burden potential to corrupt, no damage bonus, no sites to strike soon, too expensive big minions, too expensive bonus triggers.... has no focus. With Easterlings, can corrupt pretty well. With Trackers, can grind and build burdens well too. That seems fair to me. (Though I'd add at least ONE Nazgul Sword, only to see it shining...)
Eukaliptus, I know you didn't intend to make a corruption deck, but Dmaz was pointing towards one and thus I tried to make one. By the way, your RB Rangers/Easterling+Gollum deck looks awesome. Very professional, I mean ;).
That's all. I turn the page, as you all did time ago... :up:
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There's a common condition that discards him at regroup: 7C65 Never. It's an outsider card though, but can get the strategy running without rares from Towers Block; other than discarding Smeagol, wouldn't do anything at all.
Yeah...it is just too much of a goofy scenario to get him into the discard pile and then back...I'll go back to the drawing board with this deck, applying some of your other suggestions. version 2.0 should be back up soon :)
In the meantime, I'll be looking forward to playtesting some of the decks that are more ready. Maybe your Dwarf with Gandalf/Archery deck would be up for a spin soon? :)
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Those Nazgûl were never intended to corrupt, Durins Heir. Those burdens were thought to be the benefit of Treshold and Nazgûl Sword (which was replaced by Blade, but Blade is useful on 2,5,7,8,9). And to add burdens, you unfortunately need Twilight Nazgûl. Since there aren't that many to choose from, the available three have multiple copies. The effect of Enquea is just a nice bonus and not the goal of the game. Plus, the synergy between Nertea and Enquea is there.
I apologize if I have bothered anyone or robbed too much time with thoughts about the nazgul deck; these will be my last words on the debate. There are other points and decks that need our attention.
As Twilight Nazgul appear in Set 2, using Dmaz's idea of matching decks with boosters (brilliant!), that deck should go in Serie 2. That way, it would be a natural extension of the Easterings + Gollum deck from First Serie... thus burdens can very well abound; otherwise, as a 1st Serie deck can't stand on its own to build 5 burdens in order to get additional benefits from only Threshold of Shadow and lacks those useful Nazgul Swords. 5 burdens is too much for this deck alone, by that time the fellowship is set up....
That Sauron Trackers deck I proposed should be in the First Serie as Sauron Orcs are mainly from set 1, and that way it can also reinforce the RB-wounding side of this nazgul deck and use Peril to play Wisps at regroup; as a standalone deck Nertea + Enquea would be most of the time a 10 twilight combo profitable only if you can spot 4 or more FP cultures, AND there aren't other ringbound comps to share the exertions. There's synergy, but insufficient.
The deck by itself has no natural chance of swarming, way too little burden potential to corrupt, no damage bonus, no sites to strike soon, too expensive big minions, too expensive bonus triggers.... has no focus. With Easterlings, can corrupt pretty well. With Trackers, can grind and build burdens well too. That seems fair to me. (Though I'd add at least ONE Nazgul Sword, only to see it shining...)
Eukaliptus, I know you didn't intend to make a corruption deck, but Dmaz was pointing towards one and thus I tried to make one. By the way, your RB Rangers/Easterling+Gollum deck looks awesome. Very professional, I mean ;).
That's all. I turn the page, as you all did time ago... :up:
I'm really happy with all of the feedback the Twilight Nazgul has gotten...when I first started the idea, I was seeing it more as a "corrupt the ringbearer" deck, but both you and Euk have had some very good points...The deck won't be guaranteed to get Frodo to 10 burdens, and even then they could kill him off and give Sam the ring. So you've both got me convinced that keeping Euk's original idea for Nazgul Swords to give the Damage +1 bonus is good, as its a more practically achievable goal for the deck in the short term :)
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I'm going through cards for the Three Hunters deck to match up with idleninja's Uruk Trackers.
Just some first thoughts on it, but if anyone has time, we could use some suggestions :)
Which companions to use.
I figured
Aragorn, Wingfoot
Legolas, Archer of Mirkwood
Gimli, Unbidden Guest
would be the best given what options we have from the format.
I thought about Legolas, Elven Stalwart, but if we did use him it would make more sense in an Archery deck I think....
For other companions, we could just go the typical discarding hobbits.
Some other key cards, since the companion count would be a little low.
Defend it and Hope
Rumil, Elven Protector
Orophin, Lorien Bowman
Foul Creation
Bounder
Thrarin, Dwarven Smith
Let me know what you guys think! What would go good in this deck?
EDIT: Added two Athelas, deck is almost finished now.
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I'm going through cards for the Three Hunters deck to match up with idleninja's Uruk Trackers.
Just some first thoughts on it, but if anyone has time, we could use some suggestions :)
Which companions to use.
I figured
Aragorn, Wingfoot
Legolas, Archer of Mirkwood
Gimli, Unbidden Guest
would be the best given what options we have from the format.
I thought about Legolas, Elven Stalwart, but if we did use him it would make more sense in an Archery deck I think....
For other companions, we could just go the typical discarding hobbits.
Some other key cards, since the companion count would be a little low.
Defend it and Hope
Rumil, Elven Protector
Orophin, Lorien Bowman
Foul Creation
Bounder
Thrarin, Dwarven Smith
Let me know what you guys think! What would go good in this deck?
Looks good! Here are some more card ideas:
Quick as May Be (to go with Defend It and Hope)
Trust (Maybe include Agility / Stout and Strong to go with it?) (But might become too OP if you get DoFP)
To counter the Tracker side:
Ranger's Sword, Blade of Aragorn
Saelbeth, Elven Councilor
Sentinels of Numenor
For healing (since we have so few comps and Hobbits probably can't fight too much):
A Royal Welcome (with Speedbump and Grimir)
Might of Numenor
Must Be a Dream
I would love to include My Axe is Notched + Final Count, but rares...
Are sitepaths supposed to help/hinder one side of the deck or the other? Or hinder the other decks?
1: The Riddermark (Although the 2 hobbits + gimli + Wingfoot from site 1 gets old... maybe Plains of Rohan instead?)
2: Plains of Rohan Camp
3: Barrows and Golden Hall are annoying, Throne Room if you pull Theoden?
4: White Rocks
5: Deep of Helm :twisted: / Helm's Gate / Hornburg Courtyard
6: Hornburg Armory
7: Hornburg Causeway
8: Nothing that helps/hinders either side of the deck
9: Fortress of Orthanc
Hope this helps. This thing is starting to come together!
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Since dmaz is somewhat lacking of a Hunters deck :P :mrgreen:
Ring-bearer: Frodo, Son of Drogo
Ring: The One Ring, The Ruling Ring
2x Gimli, Unbidden Guest
1x Haldir, Emissary of the Galadhrim
2x Legolas, Elven Comrade
3x Aragorn, Heir of Elendil
2x Sam, Proper Poet
1x Bounder
2x Hand Axe
1x Legolas' Sword
1x Naith Longbow
2x Ranger's Sword, Blade of Aragorn
2x Hobbit Sword
3x Khazad Ai-menu
3x Valor
2x Dagger Strike
1x Defend It and Hope
2x Severed His Bonds
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Since dmaz is somewhat lacking of a Hunters deck :P :mrgreen:
Ring-bearer: Frodo, Son of Drogo
Ring: The One Ring, The Ruling Ring
2x Gimli, Unbidden Guest
1x Haldir, Emissary of the Galadhrim
2x Legolas, Elven Comrade
3x Aragorn, Heir of Elendil
2x Sam, Proper Poet
1x Bounder
2x Hand Axe
1x Legolas' Sword
1x Naith Longbow
2x Athelas
2x Ranger's Sword, Blade of Aragorn
2x Hobbit Sword
3x Khazad Ai-menu
3x Valor
2x Dagger Strike
1x Defend It and Hope
I like it much better than what I was working on. Mine just felt like a slight variation of the Current TT Aragorn Starter Deck. And with better companion support you don't need to rely on Rumil and Orophin like I was thinking...
All we need to do with this is swap two of the events for two severed his bonds, since this will be serie 1 :)
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Cut the Athelas for 2 Severed.
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Ok,
This is the one that I'm going to use against DurinsHeir's deck. I really liked idleninja's idea of having trust work with Agility. If we don't include more than one copy of Agility it should be ok. Also with Khazad Ai Menu/Quick as May Be we have the full circle of the three hunters working with each other kind of.
Small note for DurinsHeir: Just makes sure your final draft for the testing has x2 Hobbit Sword and x2 Severed His Bonds (you could swap the intuition for those).
Frodo, Reluctant Adventurer
Gimli, Unbidden Guest x2
Legolas, Archer of Mirkwood x2
Aragorn, Heir of Elendil x2
Haldir, Emissary of the Galadhrim x2
Fereveldir, Son of Thandronen x2
Bounder
Hobbit Sword x2
Ranger's Sword, Blade of Aragorn x2
Elven Sword x2
Athelas x2
Agility
Defend it And Hope
Quick as May Be
Severed His Bonds x2
Trust x2
Khazad Ai-Menu x2
Valor x2
It might not be good to include Sam in every serie 1 starter. The Ringbound deck definitely gets him, but both this deck and the Dwarf-Gandalf one are pretty strong already...
Uruk Chaser x3
Uruk Hunter x2
Uruk Pursuer x2
Uruk Runner x3
Uruk Scout x3
Uruk Searcher x2
Uruk Seeker x2
Shotgun Enquea
Broad-Bladed Sword x2
Kill Them Now x2
Many Riddles x3
Weary x3
Saruman's Ambition x2
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It might not be good to include Sam in every serie 1 starter. The Ringbound deck definitely gets him, but both this deck and the Dwarf-Gandalf one are pretty strong already...
Totally agree, Sam shouldn't be a frequent kamikaze, but a scarce commodity meant instead to be a center piece of the machinery of certain decks...
Here's the final draft of my Unconditional Dwarves deck (with 2x both Hobbit Sword and Severed His Bonds), but first I want to remark 2 little points: 1) this Dwarven deck gets destroyed by Shadow Archery, thus it comes instead with a Shadow it could manage very well: Sauron Trackers. 2) There's a dangerous lack of companions (only 5 including Frodo), so it needs at least one in addition... that means either Thrarin or Dwarven Warrior...
Unconditional Dwarves / Perilous Trackers:
Ring-bearer: Frodo, Reluctant Adventurer
Ring: The One Ring, The Ruling Ring
Adventure deck:
Western Emyn Muil
Wold of Rohan
Barrows of Edoras
White Mountains
Hornburg Parapet
Hornburg Armory
Hornburg Causeway
Valley of Saruman
Fortress of Orthanc
Free Peoples Deck:
(30 cards)
1X Dwarven Warrior
1x Farin, Dwarven Emissary
1x Fror, Gimli's Kinsman
1x Gimli, Dwarven Delegate
3x Gandalf, The Grey Pilgrim
1x Grimir, Dwarven Elder
1x Barliman Butterbur, Prancing Pony Proprietor
2x Dwarven Axe
2x Dwarven Bracers
2x Hand Axe
1x Wizard Staff
2x Hobbit Sword
3x Axe Strike
1x Flurry of Blows
2x Mysterious Wizard
2x Sleep Caradhras
2x Severed His Bonds
2x Dwarven Heart
Shadow Deck:
(30 cards)
2x Gate Sentry
2x Orc Assassin
2x Orc Butcher
3x Orc Cutthroat
2x Orc Insurgent
3x Orc Patrol
2x Orc Pillager
2x Orc Scouting Band
3x I'd Make You Squeak
2x Peril
3x Teeth of Mordor
4x Under the Watching Eye
EDIT: Changed site 5, as I misclicked at first...
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There are some important issues I want to remark about this sealed:
1. There's a lack of crowd control in the decks we have posted... could be useful to give at the First Serie 1 or 2 cards to counter overpopulation, such as Southron Commander, The Number Must Be Few or Shotgun Enquea.
2. I really believe there should be 4 starter deck choices in each of the first 3 Series, to give a proper representation to the movies and strategies. I mean, if we give only those 3 deck options for 1st Serie (RB Companions, Three Hunters and Dwarves-Gandalf) there wouldn't be a Rohan deck to start, and we all know 4th Set gives the basis for Rohirrim (it could pair well with Archery or Dunland). Don't think it should be a problem to build 12 decks instead of 9, as our main wealth is creativity. ;)
3. There are many deck themes we haven't worked or even mentioned, such that I think would be useful to merge compatible themes into one deck to give that wide representation I mentioned above (I call this 'Merging' #-o). Those Perilous Trackers are an example or merging 2 themes together: Sauron Trackers with Teeth of Mordor Swarming; or Hate and Archery: Hate and Anger with... Archery. Meh...
4. Also if we give cards needed for a certain strategy in two decks from different Series (ideally contiguous), a third deck theme would appear for free (I call this 'Coupling', and actually that's the way I've been designing), as example: Peril in 1st Serie Sauron deck can join those Wisps on the 2nd Serie Nazgul deck, or Grind Trackers can help Twilight Enquea; those Nazgul can be supported by 1st Serie Easterlings as well. I'm working on a Knights deck that uses Boromir, Steward's Heir and some Ranger tricks not included in Eukalyptus' RB Rangers deck... that way RB Rangers would benefit greatly from Knights deck, and Knights could benefit too from Ranger tricks... leaving less to conclude with the last deck choice at 3rd Serie (Gandalf-Support and Unbound Rangers, those mix, er... 'merge' easily)...
It's quite brainstorming this last idea, so I don't think anyone should be forced to try it. As far as I'm concerned, I will go this path as long as I can. Besides, the coupling between 2 given decks should be appliable to only one side: bolster either Free Peoples or Shadow.
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There are some important issues I want to remark about this sealed:
1. There's a lack of crowd control in the decks we have posted... could be useful to give at the First Serie 1 or 2 cards to counter overpopulation, such as Southron Commander, The Number Must Be Few or Shotgun Enquea.
2. I really believe there should be 4 starter deck choices in each of the first 3 Series, to give a proper representation to the movies and strategies. I mean, if we give only those 3 deck options for 1st Serie (RB Companions, Three Hunters and Dwarves-Gandalf) there wouldn't be a Rohan deck to start, and we all know 4th Set gives the basis for Rohirrim (it could pair well with Archery or Dunland). Don't think it should be a problem to build 12 decks instead of 9, as our main wealth is creativity. ;)
3. There are many deck themes we haven't worked or even mentioned, such that I think would be useful to merge compatible themes into one deck to give that wide representation I mentioned above (I call this 'Merging' #-o). Those Perilous Trackers are an example or merging 2 themes together: Sauron Trackers with Teeth of Mordor Swarming; or Hate and Archery: Hate and Anger with... Archery. Meh...
4. Also if we give cards needed for a certain strategy in two decks from different Series (ideally contiguous), a third deck theme would appear for free (I call this 'Coupling', and actually that's the way I've been designing), as example: Peril in 1st Serie Sauron deck can join those Wisps on the 2nd Serie Nazgul deck, or Grind Trackers can help Twilight Enquea; those Nazgul can be supported by 1st Serie Easterlings as well. I'm working on a Knights deck that uses Boromir, Steward's Heir and some Ranger tricks not included in Eukalyptus' RB Rangers deck... that way RB Rangers would benefit greatly from Knights deck, and Knights could benefit too from Ranger tricks... leaving less to conclude with the last deck choice at 3rd Serie (Gandalf-Support and Unbound Rangers, those mix, er... 'merge' easily)...
It's quite brainstorming this last idea, so I don't think anyone should be forced to try it. As far as I'm concerned, I will go this path as long as I can. Besides, the coupling between 2 decks should be appliable to only one side: bolster either Free Peoples or Shadow.
For Unconditional Dwarves, I think Thrarin would be ok to add :) I'm excited to see Gandalf working together with these guys! PM to follow, for us to arrange our first playtesting match!
1. Well heard on the lack of crowd control. For each serie, I think there should be one starter that offers a Shotgun Enquea, maybe two by serie 3...this would make our decks align with the Movie sealed decks, which worked very well. BUT, like you pointed out, we may need to add x2 Southron Commander that are delivered to everyone in addition to their serie 1 starter deck choice and boosters, just like in Towers Sealed. I think that would be fair.
2. I wouldn't mind there being 4 starter deck choices either, for a total of 12. The big problem with this is development time. I am looking forward to playtesting these decks, but as it is, I'm stretched for time. I'm not sure we will have time to develop 12 :/
3. I was musing on those FotR block cards like Malice and News of Mordor, which capitalize on combos...some of them aren't super practical. Maybe News of Mordor and Hate and Anger are the only ones that allow you to really pull off something beneficial....
4. I agree with the "Coupling"! You kind of see this in some of the already existing starter decks, though Decipher didn't really develop it to its full potential....maybe we can make it happen :)
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For Unconditional Dwarves, I think Thrarin would be ok to add :) I'm excited to see Gandalf working together with these guys! PM to follow, for us to arrange our first playtesting match!
1. Well heard on the lack of crowd control. For each serie, I think there should be one starter that offers a Shotgun Enquea, maybe two by serie 3...this would make our decks align with the Movie sealed decks, which worked very well. BUT, like you pointed out, we may need to add x2 Southron Commander that are delivered to everyone in addition to their serie 1 starter deck choice and boosters, just like in Towers Sealed. I think that would be fair.
2. I wouldn't mind there being 4 starter deck choices either, for a total of 12. The big problem with this is development time. I am looking forward to playtesting these decks, but as it is, I'm stretched for time. I'm not sure we will have time to develop 12 :/
3. I was musing on those FotR block cards like Malice and News of Mordor, which capitalize on combos...some of them aren't super practical. Maybe News of Mordor and Hate and Anger are the only ones that allow you to really pull off something beneficial....
4. I agree with the "Coupling"! You kind of see this in some of the already existing starter decks, though Decipher didn't really develop it to its full potential....maybe we can make it happen :)
Thrarin, SoE would be great! Even better than the generic guy.
1. I prefer Southron Commander as he doesn't necessarily destroy a 6th companion. That one Shotgun Enquea (or two) in only one deck per Serie seems ok to me.
2. Hope we have the time, can't say anything else...
3. Malice isn't the only way of merging Sauron Orcs with Moria... there's also The Eye of Sauron + Troubled Mountains + burdens = Hand Extension + Abundant Twilight = Swarm... Moria could use Goblin Spear + Frenzy, or Must Do Without Hope (in Fellowship Block) to add burdens, Sauron could use Wisp or Gleaming In The Snow... it's much harder in sealed than constructed as we can't use those rare Sauron conditions, but anyway that's only an example. And merging can be done inside a single culture: Tracker Uruks (or Fierce: Uruk Warrior, Uruk Fighter, Uruk Fanatic, Uruk-Hai Rampage) with either Burden Uruks (Worry, Evil Afoot, Traitor's Voice) or Site Control (Down To The Last Child) for another example... Possibilities are huge.
4. That's right, at Fellowship Block the Shadow side of Gimli's and Boromir's can couple very well, as Aragorn's and Legolas'; Eomer's and Eowyn's on FP side, Eowyn's (wargriders) and Faramir's (isen-orcs) on Shadow. Gandalf/Moria decks of sets 1 and 2 is what we don't want to do: strenghten both sides with a single combination, leading to obvious and overpowered decisions.
But it's full potential goes beyond: make an almost whole new strategy out of 2 given decks...
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You probably don't want to hear this, but one thing you might consider is just using the pre-existing starter decks that are legal for Towers Standard, and include some sort of generic Towers site path. That would give you 12 starter decks to work with, all pre-tested for balance.
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You probably don't want to hear this, but one thing you might consider is just using the pre-existing starter decks that are legal for Towers Standard, and include some sort of generic Towers site path. That would give you 12 starter decks to work with, all pre-tested for balance.
It's been considered...the problem is it would defeat half of the purpose of having the league: new content. If we used the same starters, there would be new combinations of preexisting starters, but the shadow and fellowship themes that have never been touched in sealed would remain untouched. In the end, the league would be kind of cool and probably have some neat combos...but without new starters the overall feel would be the same.
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This is the one that I'm going to use against DurinsHeir's deck. I really liked idleninja's idea of having trust work with Agility. If we don't include more than one copy of Agility it should be ok. Also with Khazad Ai Menu/Quick as May Be we have the full circle of the three hunters working with each other kind of...
Frodo, Reluctant Adventurer
Gimli, Unbidden Guest x2
Legolas, Archer of Mirkwood x2
Aragorn, Heir of Elendil x2
Haldir, Emissary of the Galadhrim x2
Fereveldir, Son of Thandronen x2
Bounder
Hobbit Sword x2
Ranger's Sword, Blade of Aragorn x2
Elven Sword x2
Athelas x2
Agility
Defend it And Hope
Quick as May Be
Severed His Bonds x2
Trust x2
Khazad Ai-Menu x2
Valor x2
Uruk Chaser x3
Uruk Hunter x2
Uruk Pursuer x2
Uruk Runner x3
Uruk Scout x3
Uruk Searcher x2
Uruk Seeker x2
Shotgun Enquea
Broad-Bladed Sword x2
Kill Them Now x2
Many Riddles x3
Weary x3
Saruman's Ambition x2
As for the Shadow, I'd go 4x with Uruk Searcher as he's a killing machine. Uruk Scout is the only replacement for Ugluk's effect on roaming penalty, that's the best anyone might do, but I fear it could cost more than what it gives (playtesting will tell us), in which case should be removed... Those Broad Bladed Swords fit greatly with the weakness... As for the events, Kill Them Now pumps only trackers, so Ferocity might be better if we want this Shadow to be coupled with another Uruk deck. You may consider adding Wariness as can be a killer splash :twisted:...
As for the FP, it lacks weapons for Gimli, so IMO he ends up as a mere support companion... those additional elves leave him in the background and this ends up like a Helm's Deep Elves deck instead. I like your try with Archer of Mirkwood instead of Elven Comrade, and that combo of Agility / Trust, but Euk's version seems to fit better for the Three Hunters trio... I'd start with his work and make some adjustments.
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This is what I meant...
The Three Hunters
2x Gimli, Unbidden Guest
1x Fereveldir, Son of Thandronen
1x Haldir, Emissary of the Galadhrim
1x Legolas, Archer of Mirkwood
3x Aragorn, Heir of Elendil
1x Dwarven Axe
1x Dwarven Bracers
1x Elven Sword
1x Legolas' Sword
1x Naith Longbow
2x Athelas
2x Ranger's Sword, Blade of Aragorn
2x Hobbit Sword
2x Khazad Ai-menu
1x Quick As May Be
2x Valor
1x Defend It and Hope
2x Trust
2x Severed His Bonds
1x Agility
Gimli is the weakest of the Three (as Legolas has a free +2 support from Gimli), thus opted for 1 each Dwarven Bracers and Dwarven Axe instead of 2x Hand Axe. Athelas is key if this FP deck is supposed to defeat it's own Shadow with ease... Removed Bounder, but Frodo seems well protected with Legolas, 2 direct wounding events and a Defender +1 Aragorn...
Agility and its combos (Trust and Fereveldir) remain. Athelas, Archer of Mirkwood, Trust and Legolas' Sword seem to be enough healing...
That Aragorn and Athelas (and Defend It And Hope) can do good coupling with a 2nd Serie Knights deck: Swordarm of the White Tower, Armor, Coat of Mail, Might of Numenor, Elendil's Valor and whatever it may bring....
Those elves (and even Gimli) may work well with a Naith Elves + Shoulder to Shoulder deck too: Lend Us Your Aid, That Is No Orc Horn, Stout and Strong, Asfaloth and elven weapons, Elven Brooch (could work greatly with Hand Axe)...
Possibilities are huge...
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This is what I meant...
The Three Hunters
2x Gimli, Unbidden Guest
1x Fereveldir, Son of Thandronen
1x Haldir, Emissary of the Galadhrim
1x Legolas, Archer of Mirkwood
3x Aragorn, Heir of Elendil
1x Dwarven Axe
1x Dwarven Bracers
1x Elven Sword
1x Legolas' Sword
1x Naith Longbow
2x Athelas
2x Ranger's Sword, Blade of Aragorn
2x Hobbit Sword
2x Khazad Ai-menu
1x Quick As May Be
2x Valor
1x Defend It and Hope
2x Trust
2x Severed His Bonds
1x Agility
Gimli is the weakest of the Three (as Legolas has a free +2 support from Gimli), thus opted for 1 each Dwarven Bracers and Dwarven Axe instead of 2x Hand Axe. Athelas is key if this FP deck is supposed to defeat it's own Shadow with ease... Removed Bounder, but Frodo seems well protected with Legolas, 2 direct wounding events and a Defender +1 Aragorn...
Agility and its combos with Trust and Fereveldir remain. Athelas, Archer of Mirkwood, Trust and Legolas' Sword seem to be enough healing...
That Aragorn and Athelas (and Defend It And Hope) can do good coupling with a 2nd Serie Knights deck: Swordarm of the White Tower, Armor, Coat of Mail, Might of Numenor, Elendil's Valor and whatever it may bring....
Yeah I like this a lot. I honestly was trying to find an opening for Dwarven Axe, and Bounder makes sense because of the Defender +1 Gorn. Didn't think of that :)
I might change the quantity count of each companion depending on which starting site (I'd prefer The Riddermark just so they have the option to start the game with The Three Hunters :) )
Thanks for the tips!
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I might change the quantity count of each companion depending on which starting site (I'd prefer The Riddermark just so they have the option to start the game with The Three Hunters :) )
Thanks for the tips!
You're welcome my friend!
That's right... There's another option too: if you start first and your site 1 is Eastemnet Gullies, you can play Gimli, Haldir and Legolas without any change in comps count. 2x Gimli would useful for healing, and 3x Aragorn makes almost sure you'll get him before it's too late.
Anyway, there are 7 cards that depend on Aragorn to be played... may be better to start him, for cycling purposes.
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... Maybe we can give Rohan a competitive deck, without going overboard and making them overpowered... Simply adding Gandalf and Trust Me As You Once Did is a huge advantage to any deck...
This being the case, there were a couple things I did with the deck, to "nerf" it...
1. Removed Elite Rider. Quite often a base strength of 8. Add a spear and TMAYOD, and it's a beast.
2. Removed Eomer
3. Focused on a little Valiant dynamics as opposed to heavy skirmish support. I think the bonus of TMAYOD + x4 An Honorable Charge would have been almost overkill
4. Decided to pull Gandalf's Wisdom out...having the opportunity to play all of those Rohan possessions for no twilight is a little much.
I've been learning a little more about Rohan culture (and Valiant subculture) in order to try a Rohan/Gondor starter or coupling deck and found some issues that may be taken into account; if so they might modify your deck a bit...
Regarding to the point you mentioned above:
1. Totally agree, Elite Rider is a lame companion that kills or survives many heavy things for almost no cost...
2. We could use Eomer after all, as this deck might lack a single good fighter (everyone else has 6 strenght with no gametext to help). Actually we haven't really many options for Eomer as we won't use Rare cards (Third Marshal of Riddermark and Rohirrim Captain, steroid-aided versions of Elite Rider, are out), so Sister-Son of Theoden is the only option inside Towers Block. He would help with ally mechanics, but would interfere with the Valiant one as he lacks the keyword (Frodo + Gandalf + 3 Valiant men + Eomer = Shotgun Enquea or Southron Commander). I'm considering Eomer, Forthwith Banished as he has that desired unloaded keyword, and doesn't get strength bonuses from exertions a la Elite Rider.
3. There are only 3 options for Valiant dynamics as there aren't Rare cards: Let Us Be Swift, Ecglaf and Sigewulf... the latter doesn't merit any mention, but Let Us Be Swift by itself seems enough. With Rare Valiant pulls can be awesome.
4. Gandalf's Wisdom would be almost useless as many possession can be played on Theoden/Eowyn in Maneuver phase. Those card slots have more important things to do...
Regarding other points:
I. Your deck lacks 2x Severed His Bonds. This point REALLY hurts the assembly of the deck...
II. In contrast to Rider's Mount, Horse of Rohan would allow combination with other cultures that should be included in later series: Naith/Helm's Deep Elves, plain Rangers and Knights; thus they would couple into Mounted Elves (Feathered, Lorien Swordsman), Mounted Rangers (New Errand, Ranger's Bow) and Mounted Knights (Men of Numenor, CotS)... The raised twilight cost shouldn't impact too much due to Eowyn and Theoden.
III. Given the previous point, allies should privilege to aid mounted companions (Leod, Weland) instead of rohirrim (Hlafwine, Guma), for further coupling.
So here's my try:
Frodo, Mr. Underhill
2x Gandalf, The White Wizard
1x Household Guard
2x Theoden, King of the Golden Hall
1x Eomer, Forthwith Banished (starting)
1x Eowyn, Daughter of Eomund (starting)
1x Guma, Plains Farmer
1x Leod, Westfold Herdsman
1x Weland, Smith of the Riddermark
1x Wizard Staff
1x Brego
1x Herugrim
2x Horse of Rohan
2x Rider's Spear
2x Rohirrim Bow
2x Hobbit Sword
2x An Honorable Charge
1x Let Us Be Swift
2x Severed His Bonds
2x Trust Me as You Once Did
1x Arrow-slits
1x Well Stored
4 Gandalf signets... Valiant Rohirrim merged with Trust Me Gandalf, with great coupling potential to Elves and Gondorian guys. 1x Well Stored is there as a stand-alone healing card for allies... this is essential for coupled decks as they need less presence of Rohan companions (otherwise should rely on Theoden + possessions, or Eomer, SSoT to heal Weland and Leod)...
This deck has great skirimish and healing potential, thus wrecks an archery shadow (should be paired with Hate and Archery). Dies awfully against Easterlings, as the natural course of things...
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Paging Durins Heir for a play-test game ;)
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Our two replays for your evaluation.
The Gandalf/Dwarf deck is a lot stronger...suggestions?
http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=dmaz$6agp06lnxmf502kj
http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=dmaz$vse8c9m0a27llfyc
Based on previous tracker starter decks it looks like they don't include more than 2 of each condition they use.
That being said, should we include 2 of each of the Uruk tracker search cards instead of 3 each?
*note*: The Gimli and Gloin are only being used because in the actual league the deck will be supplemented with out of format dwarves (check Durins Heir's list).
Thanks!
UPDATE:
New replay with adapted Gandalf/Dwarf deck:
http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=dmaz$jba3tfipbx6txvhm
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The Dwarves + Gandalf deck resulted a little too powerful with 2x Sleep Caradhras, so I changed it a bit. But the shadow side was REALLY overpowered... Here it is after some changes:
Unconditional Dwarves / Perilous Trackers
Frodo, Reluctant Adventurer
Free Peoples Draw Deck:
1x Farin, Dwarven Emissary
1x Fror, Gimli's Kinsman
1x Gimli, Dwarven Delegate (uses 1x Son of Gloin instead in Towers Standard)
1x Thrarin, Smith of erebor (uses 1x Gloin, Friend to Thorin instead in Towers Standard)
3x Gandalf, The Grey Pilgrim
1x Grimir, Dwarven Elder
1x Barliman Butterbur, Prancing Pony Proprietor
2x Dwarven Axe
2x Dwarven Bracers
2x Hand Axe
1x Wizard Staff
2x Hobbit Sword
3x Axe Strike
1x Flurry of Blows
2x Mysterious Wizard
2x Have Patience
1x Roll of Thunder
1x Sleep Caradhras
2x Severed His Bonds
Shadow Draw Deck:
2x Orc Assassin
2x Orc Butcher
3x Orc Cutthroat
2x Orc Insurgent
1x Orc Patrol
2x Orc Pillager
3x Orc Scouting Band
3x Orc Swordsman
3x Orc Scimitar
2x I'd Make You Squeak
2x Peril
2x Teeth of Mordor
3x Under the Watching Eye
Western Emyn Muil
Wold of Rohan
Barrows of Edoras
White Mountains
Helm's Gate
Hornburg Armory
Hornburg Causeway
Wizard's Vale (this one might be changed)
Fortress of Orthanc
Reduced Orc Patrol from 3 to 1 and every condition by one (except Peril), removed Gate Sentry. It's more directed now to skirimishes with Orc Swordsman and Orc Scimitar...
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All 3 replay codes don't work.
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All 3 replay codes don't work.
They aren't working for me either :(
Is this across the board?
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@Durins Heir
I was thinking about the pairing of your Dwarf-Gandalf deck with the Sauron trackers.
As set 4 has no Sauron stuff at all, I'm thinking we might be better pairing the deck with your original 'Hate & Arrows' deck :)
(30 cards)
4x Uruk Crossbow Troop
4x Uruk Crossbowman
4x Goblin Bowman
3x Goblin Runner
3x Moria Archer Troop
3x Hate and Anger
2x One of You Must Do This
1x Saruman's Power
2x Host of Thousands
2x Saruman's Ambition
2x They Are Coming
This would any set 4 Isengard archer booster pulls like Ranged Commander, or Weapons of Isengard to be useful at that time :)
Additionally - since it's not set 1 anymore we wouldn't need to worry about nerfing the trackers quite as much.
I think pairing the trackers with the shoulder to shoulder deck in serie 2 or 3 might be good.
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Here is a stab at some Dunland Discard Swarm Craziness. It avoids the Elders, but gives some decent discard options.
Shadow Draw Deck:
2x Dunlending Arsonist
2x Dunlending Headman
3x Dunlending Looter
4x Dunlending Rampager
3x Dunlending Renegade
3x Hillman Tribe
4x Wild Man of Dunland
3x Iron Axe
2x Burn Every Village
2x Death to the Strawheads
2x Bound By Rage
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Here is a stab at some Dunland Discard Swarm Craziness. It avoids the Elders, but gives some decent discard options.
Shadow Draw Deck:
2x Dunlending Arsonist
2x Dunlending Headman
3x Dunlending Looter
4x Dunlending Rampager
3x Dunlending Renegade
3x Hillman Tribe
4x Wild Man of Dunland
3x Iron Axe
2x Burn Every Village
2x Death to the Strawheads
2x Bound By Rage
I really like it a lot!
The dynamics of the Rampager and Renegade are pretty neat. You could drop one or two of them first to lure your opponent into discard some cards, then drop your more expensive guys for site control after they may have been tempted enough to discard a skirmish event that would have saved them :twisted:
Since site control is getting incorporated, it opens up the field to lots of neat options from booster pulls that may not have been used in the past.
What I particularly like is how it could possibly have the legs to be a strong competitor in serie 3 and 4 (unlike the two previous dunland starters which usually phase out) because Dunlending Elder is a common, and could likely be pulled from a booster in serie 3 and 4. I also think its wise not to include it in the starter though.
I'm thinking we could match them with Euk's Knights in serie 2. No one's really had much of an idea of what to pair them up with so far.
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@Durins Heir
I was thinking about the pairing of your Dwarf-Gandalf deck with the Sauron trackers.
As set 4 has no Sauron stuff at all, I'm thinking we might be better pairing the deck with your original 'Hate & Arrows' deck :)
This would any set 4 Isengard archer booster pulls like Ranged Commander, or Weapons of Isengard to be useful at that time :)
Additionally - since it's not set 1 anymore we wouldn't need to worry about nerfing the trackers quite as much.
I think pairing the trackers with the shoulder to shoulder deck in serie 2 or 3 might be good.
Set 4 hasn't a single Sauron card, but Set 1 is the core of Sauron culture: rares like Hate, Morgul Hunter, Morgul Warden, Orc Bowmen, Orc Banner and Enheartened Foe; uncommons like Orc Hunters or Orc Scouting Band; commons like Orc Soldier, Orc Scimitar, Forces of Mordor, Mordor's Strength, Shadow's Reach, Under the Watching Eye or You Bring Great Evil...
I was thinking about a 4th deck for 1st Serie: Gandalf + Valiant Rohirrim / Hate & Archery. Might be only Serie 1 should have 4 decks and the other two have 3 each (instead of 4, to a total of 10 instead of 12): that way there would be a broader base of decks to do coupled themes...
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Here's a rough draft of a Knights deck I've been working on... suggestions are welcome!
It's based on Eukalyptus' draft, with Boromir, Steward's Heir as the center piece:
Osgiliath Reclaimed deck:
2x Boromir, Steward's Heir
1x Faramir, Son of Denethor
2x Gondorian Knight
1x Turgon, Man of Belfalas
1x Merry, Learned Guide
1x Armor
1x Banner of Westernesse
2x Knight's Mount
3x Sword of Gondor
2x Hobbit Sword
2x Elendil's Valor
1x Gondor Will See It Done
1x Gondor's Vengeance
1x Might of Numenor
2x New Errand
3x Swordarm of the White Tower
1x Citadel of the Stars
2x City Wall
1x Garrison of Osgiliath
The starting fellowship may be either 2 knights or Boromir + Merry. The idea of using Learned Guide is to start an additional companion and be able to discard him when there's risk of overpopullation. This deck has only 2x Hobbit Sword as hobbit support, as it should be a Serie 2 deck...
First Level (outsider card) is removed as it would be either too weak or too strong: a -1 strength pump (wow!) or a direct wounding mechanism for Turgon... Turgon was designed at first to work on minions after a double move. Fortifications may not be played from discard in absence of foreign card Sixth Level (or a Set 5 event called Take Cover), so we shouldn't really worry about them being transferred for free (by spotting 3 knights). There are only 4, in order to use them as a last resource in absence of events (strength pumps or wounding events like New Errand).
Ranger tricks are New Errand to wound minions (combined with CotS may take you out of huge troubles) and Gondor's Vengeance for double moves (or to prevent a minion from using regroup abilities).
Elendil's Valor, Might of Numenor and Gondor Will See It Done are subtle survival mechanisms...
There are 2 outsider cards here: Boromir and Knights Mount. The horses are here to give versatility, and to allow the fellowship more chances of double moves. And because they could make a great combo with Weland and Leod from the Rohan deck...
1x Faramir is just a splash...
That's all...
EDIT: Changed Merry, From O'er the Brandywine for Learned Guide. Removed Coat of Mail and No Stranger to the Shadows and used those slots for subtler survival mechanisms...
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Here is a stab at some Dunland Discard Swarm Craziness. It avoids the Elders, but gives some decent discard options.
Shadow Draw Deck:
2x Dunlending Arsonist
2x Dunlending Headman
3x Dunlending Looter
4x Dunlending Rampager
3x Dunlending Renegade
3x Hillman Tribe
4x Wild Man of Dunland
3x Iron Axe
2x Burn Every Village
2x Death to the Strawheads
2x Bound By Rage
I like it. But I'm afraid it has clearly at least 2 weak points it needs to correct:
1. It has little protection against archery or direct wounding. Each and every minion has only 1 vitality, and Bound by Rage is somewhat hard to play (besides, only 2 in the whole deck makes likely you will get it too late). Sites 2 and 3 may save you at the moment, but after that Legolas alone will cause you severe headaches. Add some Elven Bows to the mix and it would be an automatic loss...
(By the way, I'm a proponent of NOT including an Elven Archery deck as it would be really overpowered: Legolas + 2 bows would easily terminate Dunland, Moria, Sauron Trackers and even Uruks. Naith Elves would be enough instead)
2. It has neither direct discarding nor ways of getting advantage from reduced hand (initiative, for example), thus many minions will work as mere 'discarding events' of twilight cost 1 or 2 (and the remaining will be pin cushions for archery or maneuver direct wounding). 21 minions is a good number, but I'd remove those 3x Iron Axe (as dunlendings are strong by themselves) and use those slots for barefoot hillmen instead (or even skirimish events, as the axes are visible, thus predictable pumps)... preferably Dunlending Footmen or Band of Wild Men.
There's an alternate solution to those problems, Site Control Uruks: Advance Uruk Patrol, Uruk-Hai Band and Uruk-Hai Mob. You might include these as they soak well the archery, as far as the Dunlendings count doesn't go below 18... Even discard Orcs like Tower Lieutenant and Orc Inquisitor may help...
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I am really enjoying all these ideas, and I'd be extremely happy to help playtest. However I don't think it is evident to me just which decks are actually ready for playtesting. The only complete decks I see so far are Dwarves/Sauron Trackers, 3 Hunters/Uruk Trackers, and a Ring-bound/Easterling pairing. If I am missing something please point it out.
I'll make these decks and hopefully have some spare time to playtest.
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Those are the three decks. Here is the most recent decklist with changes for the RB/Easterlings:
Ring-bearer: Frodo, Tired Traveller
Ring: The One Ring, The Ruling Ring
Adventure deck:
East Wall of Rohan
Uruk Camp
Barrows of Edoras
Ered Nimrais
Hornburg Parapet
Hornburg Armory
Hornburg Causeway
Wizard's Vale
Palantir Chamber
Free Peoples Draw Deck:
2x Faramir, Ithilien Ranger
2x Gondorian Ranger
2x Ranger of Ithilien
2x Sam, Proper Poet
1x Boromir's Gauntlets
2x Ranger's Bow
3x Sword of Gondor
2x Hobbit Sword
1x Dagger Strike
1x Elendil's Valor
1x Pathfinder
2x Swordsman of the Northern Kingdom
2x War and Valor
1x What Are They?
2x Severed His Bonds
1x City Wall
1x Garrison of Osgiliath
1x Ithilien Trap
1x There and Back Again
Shadow Draw Deck:
2x Gollum, Old Villain
4x Easterling Axeman
3x Easterling Guard
3x Easterling Infantry
3x Easterling Lieutenant
2x Easterling Polearm
2x Nasty, Foul Hobbitses
3x We Must Have It
3x Gathering to the Summons
3x Men of Rhun
2x Evil-smelling Fens
The other Sam was just too powerful. He basically nullified all of the burden adding power of the deck in a mirror match.
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I like it. But I'm afraid it has clearly at least 2 weak points it needs to correct:
1. It has little protection against archery or direct wounding. Each and every minion has only 1 vitality, and Bound by Rage is somewhat hard to play (besides, only 2 in the whole deck makes likely you will get it too late). Sites 2 and 3 may save you at the moment, but after that Legolas alone will cause you severe headaches. Add some Elven Bows to the mix and it would be an automatic loss...
(By the way, I'm a proponent of NOT including an Elven Archery deck as it would be really overpowered: Legolas + 2 bows would easily terminate Dunland, Moria, Sauron Trackers and even Uruks. Naith Elves would be enough instead)
2. It has neither direct discarding nor ways of getting advantage from reduced hand (initiative, for example), thus many minions will work as mere 'discarding events' of twilight cost 1 or 2 (and the remaining will be pin cushions for archery or maneuver direct wounding). 21 minions is a good number, but I'd remove those 3x Iron Axe (as dunlendings are strong by themselves) and use those slots for barefoot hillmen instead (or even skirimish events, as the axes are visible, thus predictable pumps)... preferably Dunlending Footmen or Band of Wild Men.
There's an alternate solution to those problems, Site Control Uruks: Advance Uruk Patrol, Uruk-Hai Band and Uruk-Hai Mob. You might include these as they soak well the archery, as far as the Dunlendings count doesn't go below 18... Even discard Orcs like Tower Lieutenant and Orc Inquisitor may help...
How about this as a switch-up?
Shadow Draw Deck:
2x Dunlending Arsonist
2x Dunlending Headman
3x Dunlending Looter
3x Dunlending Rampager (-1)
3x Dunlending Renegade
3x Hillman Tribe
3x Wild Man of Dunland (-1)
3x Iron Axe
2x Burn Every Village
2x Death to the Strawheads
2x Bound By Rage
+3x Orc Inquisitor
+2x Tower Lieutenant
This gives a slight bit of control to peel cards out of hands at key times to get more minions to stick as well as giving additional vitality.
Thoughts?
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That's pretty cool!
I curious to see just how brutal it will be with the discarding...the addition of the orcs seems decently balanced since they will be costly for twilight until site 6, so an early swarm in conjunction with them won't be overly easy.
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I am really enjoying all these ideas, and I'd be extremely happy to help playtest. However I don't think it is evident to me just which decks are actually ready for playtesting. The only complete decks I see so far are Dwarves/Sauron Trackers, 3 Hunters/Uruk Trackers, and a Ring-bound/Easterling pairing. If I am missing something please point it out.
I'll make these decks and hopefully have some spare time to playtest.
Thanks for hopping on board! I'm looking forward to playtesting with you!
Merrick has made a thread for proposed deck lists and replays links :)
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Here's a rough draft of a Knights deck I've been working on... suggestions are welcome!
It's based on Eukalyptus' draft, with Boromir, Steward's Heir as the center piece:
Osgiliath Reclaimed deck:
2x Boromir, Steward's Heir
1x Faramir, Son of Denethor
2x Gondorian Knight
1x Turgon, Man of Belfalas
1x Merry, Learned Guide
1x Armor
1x Banner of Westernesse
2x Knight's Mount
3x Sword of Gondor
2x Hobbit Sword
2x Elendil's Valor
1x Gondor Will See It Done
1x Gondor's Vengeance
1x Might of Numenor
2x New Errand
3x Swordarm of the White Tower
1x Citadel of the Stars
2x City Wall
1x Garrison of Osgiliath
The starting fellowship may be either 2 knights or Boromir + Merry. The idea of using Learned Guide is to start an additional companion and be able to discard him when there's risk of overpopullation. This deck has only 2x Hobbit Sword as hobbit support, as it should be a Serie 2 deck...
First Level (outsider card) is removed as it would be either too weak or too strong: a -1 strength pump (wow!) or a direct wounding mechanism for Turgon... Turgon was designed at first to work on minions after a double move. Fortifications may not be played from discard in absence of foreign card Sixth Level (or a Set 5 event called Take Cover), so we shouldn't really worry about them being transferred for free (by spotting 3 knights). There are only 4, in order to use them as a last resource in absence of events (strength pumps or wounding events like New Errand).
Ranger tricks are New Errand to wound minions (combined with CotS may take you out of huge troubles) and Gondor's Vengeance for double moves (or to prevent a minion from using regroup abilities).
Elendil's Valor, Might of Numenor and Gondor Will See It Done are subtle survival mechanisms...
There are 2 outsider cards here: Boromir and Knights Mount. The horses are here to give versatility, and to allow the fellowship more chances of double moves. And because they could make a great combo with Weland and Leod from the Rohan deck...
1x Faramir is just a splash...
That's all...
EDIT: Changed Merry, From O'er the Brandywine for Learned Guide. Removed Coat of Mail and No Stranger to the Shadows and used those slots for subtler survival mechanisms...
Here is my feedback:
2x Boromir, Steward's Heir
1x Faramir, Son of Denethor
2x Gondorian Knight
1x Turgon, Man of Belfalas
1x Merry, Learned Guide
+1x Merry, From O'er the Brandywine
1x Armor
1x Banner of Westernesse
2x Knight's Mount
3x Sword of Gondor
2x Hobbit Sword
1x Elendil's Valor (-1)
1x Gondor Will See It Done
1x Gondor's Vengeance
1x Might of Numenor
2x New Errand
3x Swordarm of the White Tower
1x Citadel of the Stars
2x City Wall
1x Garrison of Osgiliath
+2x Severed his Bonds
Every deck should have some Frodo protection beyond just a hobbit sword and adding the 2x Severed helps at just about any time. To get the Severeds in, I dropped Armor and an Elendil's Valor. Anything that makes a companion Defender +1 is amazingly powerful in sealed. Tread with caution when using it. I want it to be more of an out in a bad situation than a major pump. To that end, I might also switch out the Gondor's Vengeance for dagger strikes so that you end up with 2x dagger strike, 1x Gondor's Vengeance as you have lots of hand weapons. This would also help clear the board if you are trying to set up the ability to double move.
I changed Merrys to give more flexibility in the starting lineup. If you get a sword early, you have another solid companion who isn't going to die early on. Also works well if we make the change to dagger strikes. I don't have a problem with Boromir, Steward's Heir or Knight's Mount. They seem pretty reasonable and low power additions to the format.
I'd consider pairing this with the Dunland Swarm deck. They seem somewhat complementary.
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Boromir, Steward's Heir is pretty cool...at first I was kind of skeptical, but I agree that he's not overpowered in any way. Just adds some keywords that lets him bear possessions that Boromir usually doesn't bear :)
Overall, the deck is a little sporadic though...it almost can't decide whether it's Knights or Rangers.
While having the Knight count too high might make the deck a little to easy to run the fortifications, you could always throw in Dervorin (replace Faramir) to work the same way as Gondor's Vengeance, while not being a knight and having a conditional ability so he's not too OP.
You could drop the two New Errands for something Knight related. Right now there are only 3 fortifications, another Citadel of the Stars would be too much, but First Level would be ok I think...There's a skirmish event for Knights that is essentially the comparable card to New Errand, wounding a minion bearing a fortification, I think.
EDIT:
3x War Must Be for 3x Swordarm of the White Tower
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Every deck should have some Frodo protection beyond just a hobbit sword and adding the 2x Severed helps at just about any time.
Merrick, really thanks for your feedback. I will treat each point you mention...
This should be a Serie 2 deck, as Knights show up at set 5. As each Serie 1 deck has 2x Severed His Bonds and 2x Hobbit Sword, decks from further series don't need that addition... We can add them to the testing versions anyway, that's a good point. New errand can save Frodo from swarming too!
IMO each deck from Serie 2 should have 1x or 2x Hobbit Sword, that way Serie 3 won't need any generic hobbit aid at all, allowing more card slots for themed synergies... A total of 3 Hobbits Swords are fairly enough for a non-hobbit theme like this one, so I'll cut one. Every free slot here is GOLD. ;)
I dropped Armor and an Elendil's Valor. Anything that makes a companion Defender +1 is amazingly powerful in sealed. Tread with caution when using it. I want it to be more of an out in a bad situation than a major pump. To that end, I might also switch out the Gondor's Vengeance for dagger strikes so that you end up with 2x dagger strike, 1x Gondor's Vengeance as you have lots of hand weapons. This would also help clear the board if you are trying to set up the ability to double move.
Armor is there to survive Battleground/Site Control/Machine Uruks. As for the defender +1, you're absolutely right! 1x Elendil's Valor should be enough, besides RB Rangers deck has one too. (I was going to add I Will Go instead of it at the first draw...)
That leaves a total of 2 free slots... :P
I changed Merrys to give more flexibility in the starting lineup. If you get a sword early, you have another solid companion who isn't going to die early on. Also works well if we make the change to dagger strikes. I don't have a problem with Boromir, Steward's Heir or Knight's Mount. They seem pretty reasonable and low power additions to the format.
Learned Guide was there to prevent an early swarm and discard him when set up, but your point is better: if you want to reduce companions, just send a non-exhausted Merry to a 14 strength guy...
I'd consider pairing this with the Dunland Swarm deck. They seem somewhat complementary.
Well heard my fellow! This fellowship can handle Dunlendings given those fortifications, Knights Mount and New Errand, and they should complement well each other as the shadow empties hand quickly.
Boromir, Steward's Heir is pretty cool...at first I was kind of skeptical, but I agree that he's not overpowered in any way. Just adds some keywords that lets him bear possessions that Boromir usually doesn't bear :)
Overall, the deck is a little sporadic though...it almost can't decide whether it's Knights or Rangers.
While having the Knight count too high might make the deck a little to easy to run the fortifications, you could always throw in Dervorin (replace Faramir) to work the same way as Gondor's Vengeance, while not being a knight and having a conditional ability so he's not too OP.
You could drop the two New Errands for something Knight related. Right now there are only 3 fortifications, another Citadel of the Stars would be too much, but First Level would be ok I think...There's a skirmish event for Knights that is essentially the comparable card to New Errand, wounding a minion bearing a fortification, I think.
EDIT:
3x War Must Be for 3x Swordarm of the White Tower
Dmaz, that Boromir not only can use more possessions/conditions, but events: Gondor's Vengeance, New Errand. The latter saves necks...
As for the 'sporadic' property, the idea is to use Boromir as a bridge between Knights and RB Rangers in order to make this deck give benefits to, or get benefits from, the RB Ranger deck from Serie 1... and to get some strange subtle dynamics too! But you're right, I'll charge it towards Knights: I'll use those 2 free slots for 2x City Wall... First Level is trash by itself, or overpowered with Turgon.
In respect to transferring the fortifications for free, I think you are thinking about the dynamics of King Block's Knights: fortifications can be replayed with Sixth Level, you can heal Ingold twice, you can exhaust a minion with Fifth Level, and then kill it with Gondor Bow... Nothing of that applies here, so let them be free with 4 or 5 knights.
The event you refer is Men of Numenor, but it wastes 2 card slots instead of 1 (the fortification and the event itself). New Errand uses only 1 but has a condition: the minion must lose.
3x War Must Be... Due to scarce fortifications, Swordarm of the White Tower seemed better. Now with more fortifications I will exchange them. 2x War Must Be and another Might of Numenor, as those 5 fortifications are pumps too.
Really thank you guys for the feedback.
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So this is the way it should be:
'Osgiliath Reclaimed' deck
2x Boromir, Steward's Heir
1x Faramir, Son of Denethor
2x Gondorian Knight
1x Turgon, Man of Belfalas
1x Merry, From O'er the Brandywine
1x Armor
1x Banner of Westernesse
2x Knight's Mount
3x Sword of Gondor
1x Hobbit Sword (-1)
1x Elendil's Valor (-1)
1x Gondor Will See It Done
1x Gondor's Vengeance
2x Might of Numenor (+1)
2x New Errand
3x Swordarm of the White Tower
+2x War Must Be
1x Citadel of the Stars
4x City Wall (+2)
1x Garrison of Osgiliath
2x Might of Numenor and Banner of Westernesse are the only healing mechanisms. The banner may be used by Faramir to get easy wins against weak minions and heal...
Now it's more skirimish-oriented.
Dunland Discard Swarm deck, or 'Barefoot Hillmen' deck:
2x Dunlending Arsonist
2x Dunlending Headman
3x Dunlending Looter
3x Dunlending Rampager
3x Dunlending Renegade
3x Hillman Tribe
3x Wild Man of Dunland
3x Orc Inquisitor
2x Tower Lieutenant
2x Burn Every Village
2x Death to the Strawheads
2x Bound By Rage
Sitepath:
Eastemnet Downs
Rohirrim Village
Westemnet Plains
Westemnet Hills
Deeping Wall (couldn't find anything better, but a lucky pull of Saruman, Rabble-Rouser can wreak havoc)
Hornburg Armory
Hornburg Causeway
Wizard's Vale
Saruman's Laboratory
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You make a very good point how First Level could be overpowered by Turgon...that would get out of hand if they combined healing techniques from a first serie deck with this. City Wall, on the other hand isn't unique and can be combined with Take Cover.
Boromir, Stewards Heir, by himself does a solid job of bridging the gap between Knights and Rangers, like you mentioned. Since we have decks with ranger theme, by focusing more on knights with this deck, someone would be able to combine both at whatever level they would like. It would really be nice to see the Knight starter deck really provide you with enough Knight material to be able to go all the way with them as well.
Here's what I had in mind, its only slightly different from your most recent deck:
2x Boromir, Steward's Heir
2x Gondorian Knight
2x Turgon, Man of Belfalas
2x Dervorin
1x Banner of Westernesse
2x Knight's Mount
4x Sword of Gondor
2x Hobbit Sword
2x Dagger Strike
2x War Must Be
1x Reckless Counter
2x Take Cover
1x Citadel of the Stars
4x City Wall
1x Garrison of Osgiliath
Reasoning for some of the adjustments:
Since this is a proposal for a second serie deck, you would only need 2x hobbit sword since you already get 2 in the first serie, no matter what deck you choose.
Only 5 companions other than Frodo - again since they will already have one deck to work with, they will have no problem getting 9 companions in there, so the companions offered in this deck can be a little more exclusive to the theme.
There aren't as many skirmish event pumps, as City Wall functions as a pump in and of itself. Or, it can alternatively be used for wounding with Take Cover (the Knight's version of New Errand, kind of).
The deck is a little more straightforward companions/possessions/pumps now, with a few neat Knight-related twists.
Some site liberation involved to keep in theme with the norm of starter decks being paired with shadows that they perform decent against.
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The event you refer is Men of Numenor, not Take Cover... and as I said before, uses 2 card slots instead of 1. And is reliable only if a gondorian faces an exhausted minion; New Errand may protect Frodo or anyone facing 2 or more minions (one being exhausted).
Your draft lacks healing, except for 1 Banner of Westernesse, and has no wound prevention. Nor the protection of an Armor or Elendil's Valor.
Merry can give early swarm protection, so should be there. Or they simply won't start with Boromir.
There's no need of 2 copies of Hobbit Sword as the Serie 1 provides 2, cut off 1... nor 2 copies of Turgon, as most of the times will be only a generic 6 str Knight... you need to move twice to use his ability, and Knight's Mount will do his job most of those times. Maybe Ingold, Knight of Dol Amroth or Faramir, Defender of Osgiliath can take his place in your draft (or in mine).
Not only doesn't merge themes together, but has almost zero coupling potential as it has little to offer to a Ranger deck: Boromir, CotS, Reckless Counter (for a high price), Dagger Strike... maybe Dervorin and Banner of Westernesse. And +2 strength pumps...
Reckless Counter is the only addition I would do to my draft, that's a great card....
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A stab at the idea for Serie 1 "Muster the Rohirrim!"
Overview:
1. Centers around mounted companions with big healing potential from villagers. Wanted to include Armor from FotR, but just didn't have room for it.
2. Fortress Never Fallen for at least a little condition control. I think its necessary considering how many condition supported shadows are in the mix right now.
3. Noble Intentions is an indirect answer to Easterling burden adding. You can keep assigning Frodo to Guards and Lieutenants, while holding the card for insurance if they have a pump. It's not perfect but it would help keep him from getting corrupted fast.
Here it is:
Frodo, Tired Traveler
Eomer, Sister-son of Theoden
Eowyn, Lady of Rohan
Theoden, Lord of the Mark x2
Ceorl, Weary Horseman
Rider of Rohan x2
Guma, Plains Farmer
Hlafwine, Village Farmhand
Weland, Smith of the Riddermark
Brego
Rider's Mount x3
Rider's Spear x3
Herugrim
Eomer's Spear
Hobbit Sword x2
Well Stored x2
Fortress Never Fallen
Severed His Bonds x2
Noble Intentions
Fight for the Villagers x3
Feel free to tear this apart :lol:
There are really a number of directions you could go with a Rohan deck.
The two singular things that I think we would really need for this deck would be Fortress Never Fallen and at least one Noble Intentions (addresses both Easterlings and the need for a little more Frodo support, since there's no defender+1 stuff).
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Something to start working on:
3x Desert Warrior
3x Southron Bowman
1x Southron Commander
3x Southron Invaders
3x Southron Marcher
3x Southron Runner
3x Southron Traveler
2x Southron Veterans
2x Mumak
2x Southron Spear
2x On the March
3x Whirling Strike
For discussion:
-1 Southron Veterans
+1 Far Harad Mercenaries
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1x Frodo, Master of the Precious
1x Smeagol, Poor Creature
1x Merry, From O'er the Brandywine
1x Pippin, Friend to Frodo
1x Sam, Nice Sensible Hobbit
1x Bounder
1x Rosie Cotton, Hobbiton Lass
2x Brace of Coneys
4x Hobbit Sword
2x Don't Follow the Lights
2x Not Listening
3x Hobbit Intuition
1x It Burns Us
2x Mind Your Own Affairs
2x Severed His Bonds
3x Poor Wretch
1x A Talent for Not Being Seen
1x Rare Good Balast
1x There and Back Again
Pippin could be exchanged for another version. Burden removal isn't that much, so I'd advise against WFR. RGB has great synergy with Frodo. The rest is self explanatory. Plus, MotP doesn't have self protection by using MYOA. I chose Brace of Coneys over Sorry About Everything since it gives pool. It also doesn't clog the hand like SAE, but it gives pool. Hobbit Intuition over Hobbit Stealth is fine by me, since they are a weak bunch. Maybe a 4th could be added and one MYOA cut instead.
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My general approach to the deck design has been to limit the number of cards in any given deck down to 3. This means that commons/uncommons that get pulled in boosters still have value. Nothing quite like seeing a card in your booster and thinking "Awesome card!" and then finding you have 5 or 6 already.
Regarding the decks by Eukalyptus - If we put the hobbit deck in series 3, it means that we will already have 3-4 hobbit swords (1-2 per deck in the first two series) which means you can potentially cut back on those and put in other cards so people can make a call as to what to include, but for play testing purposes we might want to just test the decks as is.
Good choice on Sam, but that does mean that only pippin and Smeagol can use MYOA making it only situationally good. More likely than not, it would go to pump Smeagol.
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That's an approach I can live with.
Regarding the Hobbit deck: IMO (!) using a Frodo signet Frodo only adds to his protection in a bad way (late sites, Bounder, pumps, making it near impossible to overwhelm him and nearly impossible to win when Sam is on the table as well). Since this deck is in S2 or S3, there is much Frodo protection available already, making it possible to flesh out a very good Hobbit deck. And with a Frodo signet Frodo as well. Besides, Son of Drogo is C and many will choose FotR as packs, so giving the option of MotP is a nice addition for me.
What other cards do you suggest? Nice Imitation and/or Kept Safe come to mind. Maybe one (1) Frying Pan?
Pulling a 1R Merry is boss for this deck.
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Stout and Sturdy is a great card to heal in a skirmish and potentially keep a hobbit alive long enough to get to a sanctuary. Hobbit Stealths for the extra frodo pump... Wingfoot to give a little protection and possibly allow a double move. There are lots of possibilities :-)
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Hobbit Hospital, Nurse Smeagol Attending
Frodo, Master of the Precious
Sam, Nice Sensible Hobbit
Merry, From Oer the Brandywine
Pippin, Woolly-Footed Rascal x3
Smeagol, Poor Creature
Rosie Cotton, Hobbiton Lass
Bounder
Frying Pan
Poor Wretch x4
Follow Smeagol
Rare Good Ballast
A Talent for not Being Seen
Kept Safe
Severed His Bonds x2
Hobbit Intuition x2
Don't Follow the Lights
It Burns Us
Mind Your Own Affairs x2
Not Listening x2
Stout and Sturdy x2
This would be a Serie 3 deck to foster combinations with companions from prior series.
As such, the player would already have x4 Hobbit Sword from the first two starters, so just frying pan for shire support if you want to go straight hobbit choke.
I really liked the ideas of Kept Safe and Stout and Sturdy, for a "low budget healthcare plan" for this Hobbit Hospital ;)
Merry, FotB with a weapon can make good use of Kept Safe.
I think using this Pippin is a nice option, in a pinch, if you're up against a minion you just can't handle.
Beef up Smeagol and put him in a place to win a skirmish that your opponent will allow so that you can use Not Listening to remove the burdens you add.
This deck would combine well with Wingfoot from the UB rangers of serie 2 if you wanted to go Rangers/Hobbits.
You can also generate your own doubling potential with It Burns Us. This would be optimally used for a surprise 7 to 9 move if you've been holding the card.
Looks like this theme could be really fun!
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I would go with something more along the lines of this for the hobbits:
1x Smeagol, Poor Creature
1x Merry, From O'er the Brandywine
1x Pippin, Friend to Frodo
1x Sam, Nice Sensible Hobbit
1x Bounder
1x Rosie Cotton, Hobbiton Lass
1x Hobbit Sword
2x Brace of Coneys
2x Don't Follow the Lights
2x Not Listening
3x Hobbit Intuition
2x Stout and Sturdy
1x It Burns Us
2x Mind Your Own Affairs
2x Severed His Bonds
4x Poor Wretch
1x A Talent for Not Being Seen
1x Rare Good Balast
1x There and Back Again
This assumes that people have access to 3-4 hobbit swords in the first two series (knights only have 1 and they are in series 2) and eliminates Frying pan from the equation. That is just too powerful a card vs. orcs especially if there is going to be some healing. I like Pippin FtF better than WFR as there is more protection for the hobbits at this point and you need the burden room for Smeagol to do some of his tricks.
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Something to start working on:
3x Desert Warrior
3x Southron Bowman
1x Southron Commander
3x Southron Invaders
3x Southron Marcher
3x Southron Runner
3x Southron Traveler
2x Southron Veterans
2x Mumak
2x Southron Spear
2x On the March
3x Whirling Strike
For discussion:
-1 Southron Veterans
+1 Far Harad Mercenaries
I'm fine with the Mumak and the Southron Commanders. People should have ways of dealing with him at this point if this is a series 3 deck.
I'd swap out both Veterans for Far Harad Mercenaries as Veterans are rare.
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The Knight deck I proposed had 2 Hobbit Swords...I really do think all of the Serie 2 decks should have 2 as well.
2x Boromir, Steward's Heir
2x Gondorian Knight
2x Turgon, Man of Belfalas
2x Dervorin
1x Banner of Westernesse
2x Knight's Mount
4x Sword of Gondor
2x Hobbit Sword
2x Dagger Strike
2x War Must Be
1x Reckless Counter
2x Take Cover
1x Citadel of the Stars
4x City Wall
1x Garrison of Osgiliath
Just straight Knights with fortifications and events that involve fortifications or knights, as opposed to Knight-Ranger hybrid (Gondor's Vengeance among other ranger cards were proposed, but since this is "Knights" I think we don't need to play ranger cards, Dervorin is there to function as a possible Gondor's Vengeance, albeit conditional). Since there isn't much knight stuff or generic Gondor companions in TT, there are some King cards. Reckless Counter shouldn't be much of a problem though...It's almost like That is No Orc Horn, which is from TT.
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Something to start working on:
3x Desert Warrior
3x Southron Bowman
1x Southron Commander
3x Southron Invaders
3x Southron Marcher
3x Southron Runner
3x Southron Traveler
2x Southron Veterans
2x Mumak
2x Southron Spear
2x On the March
3x Whirling Strike
For discussion:
-1 Southron Veterans
+1 Far Harad Mercenaries
I'm fine with the Mumak and the Southron Commanders. People should have ways of dealing with him at this point if this is a series 3 deck.
I'd swap out both Veterans for Far Harad Mercenaries as Veterans are rare.
My mistake. Didn't realize. Finding a working theme with Southrons and not use Rs is heavy duty.
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I have a few thoughts about card supply for each Serie.
1. Every Block sealed league includes at least one extra card outside the starters for crowd control. FotR provides you a free Enquea (maybe 2?). Towers provides 2 Southron Commanders. King provides some Site 7s to stop your opponent. WotR provides various shadow conditions. Does it make sense to do the same here?
2. I agree that every player should have Severed and Hobbit sword. In the same way as the crowd control, perhaps we award 2 of each outside the starter decks in Serie 1 and maybe 1 of each outside the starters in Serie 2, and then we can take them out of the starter deck lists for a couple more card slots?
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That would be true if we were to do just a Sealed with starter decks and packs. These are preconstructed decks done by us, just like the Revised Movie was done. And you don't get extra cards there either. We want this league to be in the same spirit.
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I would be against the additional crowd control at this point. If the starter decks don't play many companions, and they can't fight very well, crowd control is less of an issue. The deck that will need to be controlled most is Rohan most likely, but it has other issues in that it has no guaranteed condition removal and is pretty susceptible to direct and indirect wounding.
These are "pre-constructed starter decks" so they need to be able to stand on their own. Adding additional outside cards to free up card slots somewhat defeats the purpose of designing them as starters. If you were able to play with the Revised Movie Block starters, I think you'd find them pretty well balanced. We'll have to see how it all works out, but we might want to include some anti-6 in the decks starting in series 2 or just see how it plays out when we add some in series 3.
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Regarding the Enquea count.
In the Movie sealed it looks like there are three total decks with Shotgun Enquea.
I agree that it shouldn't be a staple for every deck, but perhaps by Serie 3, everyone could have the chance to have 1, depending on their starter deck choices.
We could include him in Shadows that could actually need some form of crowd control. The Sauron Grind already has a little built into it.
As many have agreed, I don't think he belongs in either the Easterling or Twilight Nazgul deck, and someone going that route shouldn't have easy access to him.
Just as in Serie 1 of the Movie sealed, perhaps we could add him to the Dunland Discard deck? I think it wouldn't hurt for that deck to get a little crowd control. The only other deck, other than Tracker Uruks that looks like it might need a little help would be Berserker Uruks.
Maybe it would be too strong to add to the Uruk/Moria archery deck, as Frodo will probably be taking burdens every skirmish phase to avoid more wounds...
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Regarding the Enquea count.
In the Movie sealed it looks like there are three total decks with Shotgun Enquea.
I agree that it shouldn't be a staple for every deck, but perhaps by Serie 3, everyone could have the chance to have 1, depending on their starter deck choices.
We could include him in Shadows that could actually need some form of crowd control. The Sauron Grind already has a little built into it.
As many have agreed, I don't think he belongs in either the Easterling or Twilight Nazgul deck, and someone going that route shouldn't have easy access to him.
Just as in Serie 1 of the Movie sealed, perhaps we could add him to the Dunland Discard deck? I think it wouldn't hurt for that deck to get a little crowd control. The only other deck, other than Tracker Uruks that looks like it might need a little help would be Berserker Uruks.
Maybe it would be too strong to add to the Uruk/Moria archery deck, as Frodo will probably be taking burdens every skirmish phase to avoid more wounds...
All of the decks in series 1 and 2 for the movie block have some form of crowd control (Far Harad Mercenaries, The Number Must Be Few, Easterling Pillager, Shotgun Enquea, Southron Commander). 3 decks have access to Shotgun Enquea. I don't think it would be good to give that option to either of the decks that have the burden adding potential. Currently the only deck that has direct crowd control is the Grind deck with TNMBF. The archery deck is pretty effective at crowd control given the amount of archery it can throw out there, however I don't know how well it will hold up if people balloon to 6-9 companions.
I think that adding some form of crowd control to the first and second series decks would be good, but our options are somewhat limited unless we go down the paths that are listed above. I don't want Enquea or specifically the commander to be in every deck as it will just kill some decks outright (the RB Ranger one).
We are proposing moving the Tracker Uruks to series 3 so that is not a big deal if it doesn't get some help.
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All of the decks in series 1 and 2 for the movie block have some form of crowd control (Far Harad Mercenaries, The Number Must Be Few, Easterling Pillager, Shotgun Enquea, Southron Commander). 3 decks have access to Shotgun Enquea. I don't think it would be good to give that option to either of the decks that have the burden adding potential. Currently the only deck that has direct crowd control is the Grind deck with TNMBF. The archery deck is pretty effective at crowd control given the amount of archery it can throw out there, however I don't know how well it will hold up if people balloon to 6-9 companions.
I think that adding some form of crowd control to the first and second series decks would be good, but our options are somewhat limited unless we go down the paths that are listed above. I don't want Enquea or specifically the commander to be in every deck as it will just kill some decks outright (the RB Ranger one).
We are proposing moving the Tracker Uruks to series 3 so that is not a big deal if it doesn't get some help.
Agreed. That is a good point about the archery deck...I suppose the only reason we saw the burden count climbing to 5 by site 7ish was simply for lack of companions (since we are just testing the 30 card deck).
If we're going to go with a little Enquea support maybe we could do it this way:
Serie 1:
Archery
Serie 2:
Berserkers
Dunland
Serie 3:
None
Even though the Easterling deck doesn't have crowd control, since it's intention of winning is indirect (through corruption or heavy damage from lots of burdens), maybe it doesn't need it? I guess the only concern would be mirror match, as there will be more companions than we've been testing with.
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If we want crowd control with the Easterlings and want to stay within the theme for them, we drop a minion or two and add Easterling Pillager in their place. Not an overpowered card IMO and only very situationally good.
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I like that idea...he had come to mind a while back, but kind of forgot about him. With the new format we can easily test him now :)
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Something to start working on:
3x Desert Warrior
3x Southron Bowman
1x Southron Commander
3x Southron Invaders
3x Southron Marcher
3x Southron Runner
3x Southron Traveler
2x Southron Veterans
2x Mumak
2x Southron Spear
2x On the March
3x Whirling Strike
For discussion:
-1 Southron Veterans
+1 Far Harad Mercenaries
What about Flanking Attack? I mean, the way the FP player assigns skirimishes is heavily determined by the amount of pool (and Ambush): if there's less than [2], there will be no skirimish events; if there's less than [3], there will be no Whirling Strike nor use of Desert Warrior's text; if there's less than [4], Southron Spear will only add 2 strength. But a surprising Flanking Attack changes everything!
I don't see those Southron Marcher and Southron Runner with good eyes... they add less twilight than what they cost, and it's added after the shadow phase (where it would be most useful) and the archery phase (they need to survive it first)... Thus, I can't see the swarming potential.
3x Mumak instead of 2...
Just some thoughts.
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This shadow isn't designed to swarm. Southron Runner adds (2), while costing (1). The idea is indeed to generate pool for the skirmish phases and do the damage there. The 2 strength of Spear are enough imo if they can't exert and they don't make them fierce. Which would either kill them completely or too strong. 2 Mumak are fine I think.
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This shadow isn't designed to swarm. Southron Runner adds (2), while costing (1). The idea is indeed to generate pool for the skirmish phases and do the damage there. The 2 strength of Spear are enough imo if they can't exert and they don't make them fierce. Which would either kill them completely or too strong. 2 Mumak are fine I think.
I kind of saw him that way too. He's like a Goblin Runner with more strings attached. He can effectively add 1 to the pool for skirmish punishment :)
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China National Holiday starts tomorrow, so I should have a lot of time for play testing with you guys :) Looking forward to a productive week. We can definitely make a dent in some of the Serie 2 decks.
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This shadow isn't designed to swarm. Southron Runner adds (2), while costing (1). The idea is indeed to generate pool for the skirmish phases and do the damage there. The 2 strength of Spear are enough imo if they can't exert and they don't make them fierce. Which would either kill them completely or too strong. 2 Mumak are fine I think.
If it's not designed to swarm, then is designed to beatdown, or to corrupt... or to lose. It's not bad designed at all, but those small guys can't win skirimishes nor exert with Southron Spear (or Flanking Attack). They are quite susceptible to direct wounding or arrows... I mean, a 6 strength guy with Spear and Mumak, a 11 strength fierce ambush [2] southron is an easy target for a Quick As May Be or a Ranger's Bow if has only 1 vitality. Those card slots are worth of better minions/items/pumps... shouldn't be considered minions at all but twilight adding events if they remain, don't count them in the minion ratio just as Bill Ferny, Saruman and Wormtongue can't be counted that way in an Uruk deck. Southron Traveler is a great minion, don't put him in the same bag...
Those small guys can't do the beatdown job, but a Mumak or a Spear can. And some surprise twilight for an equally surprising Whirling Strike can too...
No one has made a mention of Flanking Attack. The difference between Ambush [X] and a Flanking Attack is the surprise factor, just as the difference between a Goblin Scimitar (or Guard Commander) and Drums in the Deep... Thus it can turn a safe predictable assignment into a perilous gamble. And do the beatdown.
I kind of saw him that way too. He's like a Goblin Runner with more strings attached. He can effectively add 1 to the pool for skirmish punishment :)
Goblin Runner can swarm very well. And adds twilight in the Shadow phase. Those are quite different minions in quite different cultures and dynamics. You can even add 3x Goblin Runner instead, as it doesn't have to survive maneuver/archery, is exactly as predictable and allows the twilight in the Shadow phase...
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Oh jeez, the whole time I thought it was a conditon :-[ ](*,)
So you mean the deck needs to be rearranged with bigger minions and 2 Flanking Attack instead of Southron Spear?
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Oh jeez, the whole time I thought it was a conditon :-[ ](*,)
So you mean the deck needs to be rearranged with bigger minions and 2 Flanking Attack instead of Southron Spear?
Almost what you say... 2x Flanking Attack and bigger minions instead of those 'twilight adding event' minions; those Spears are quite valuable. The deck needs minions with more vitality.
And a 3rd Mumak, if the beatdown way is the only path we can choose, then we must focus on that.
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3x Desert Spearman
2x Desert Warrior
3x Elite Archer
2x Far Harad Mercenaries
3x Southron Bowman
1x Southron Commander
2x Southron Explorer (cheap, can exert twice)
3x Southron Traveler
3x Mumak
2x Southron Spear
2x Flanking Attack
2x On the March
2x Whirling Strike
The ambush angle is almost gone this way.
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3x Desert Spearman
2x Desert Warrior
3x Elite Archer
2x Far Harad Mercenaries
3x Southron Bowman
1x Southron Commander
2x Southron Explorer (cheap, can exert twice)
3x Southron Traveler
3x Mumak
2x Southron Spear
2x Flanking Attack
2x On the March
2x Whirling Strike
The ambush angle is almost gone this way.
I really like it ;D! 60% minions, 1/3 of them being archers. Good fighting potential, direct skirimish wounding and those nasty, surprising tricks. Pure beatdown. :up:
I believe the next scenario will happen quite often with inexpert players: (0) or [1] available twilight and Frodo bears a Hobbit Sword... 6 companions and Southron Commander (or any scenario with (0) and a willful asignment of Frodo). The FP player thinks "he/she can't play pumps as there's not enough twilight, thus can't overwhelm me" so let Frodo be assigned... Flanking Attack + On the March or Men of Rhun. Sam takes the Ring or the game is over...
Flanking Attack can turn the whole game into a roulette!
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I would go with something more along the lines of this for the hobbits:
1x Smeagol, Poor Creature
1x Merry, From O'er the Brandywine
1x Pippin, Friend to Frodo
1x Sam, Nice Sensible Hobbit
1x Bounder
1x Rosie Cotton, Hobbiton Lass
1x Hobbit Sword
2x Brace of Coneys
2x Don't Follow the Lights
2x Not Listening
3x Hobbit Intuition
2x Stout and Sturdy
1x It Burns Us
2x Mind Your Own Affairs
2x Severed His Bonds
4x Poor Wretch
1x A Talent for Not Being Seen
1x Rare Good Ballast
1x There and Back Again
I like both versions: the combo of Sam and Smeagol, MYOA not protecting Frodo, some burden removal...
Stout and Sturdy is a pretty worth addition and one of the most underrated cards I've seen, as can save necks in desperate moments; in constructed can heal UB Hobbits (Merry, FtS included) for Everyone Knows, or RB Hobbits for A Promise...
Some additional ideas:
Boromir, Son of Denethor can replace some events to turn hobbits into fighting machines (and has the Frodo signet for MYOA). Good Work can be more efficient for burden removal than Brace of Coneys (especially if Boromir, SoD is added). Wingfoot for doubles. Hobbit Appetite for healing; Meant to Be Alone for choking...
Anyway, as Merrick said before we shouldn't provide 4 copies of a same card to give more utility to booster pulls (Great idea! :up:), and adding 2x SHB would reach that number (given the ones from Serie 1); the same goes for 4x Poor Wretch. Cutting off 1 of each would allow 2 empty card slots for free disposal.
We need to decide if this deck will be in Serie 2 or 3, as in the first case it should have 2x Hobbit Sword... I'd leave it in the 2nd due to, IMO, to saturate the 2nd Serie with 2 Gondor decks would be a big mistake; Knight cards are available only on Set 5, so UB Rangers should be moved to the 3rd.
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Updating the 'Osgiliath Reclaimed' draft:
2x Boromir, Steward's Heir
1x Faramir, Defender of Osgiliath
2x Gondorian Knight
1x Turgon, Man of Belfalas
1x Merry, From O'er the Brandywine
1x Armor
1x Banner of Westernesse
2x Knight's Mount
3x Sword of Gondor
2x Hobbit Sword
1x Elendil's Valor
1x Gondor Will See It Done
2x Might of Numenor
2x New Errand
1x Reckless Counter
2x War Must Be
1x Citadel of the Stars
3x City Wall
1x Garrison of Osgiliath
Removed Gondor's Vengeance and Faramir, SoD to reduce the Ranger presence and trimmed City Wall to 3 (in accordance with Merrick's 3 copies idea). Replaced them respectively with a second Hobbit Sword (to make each deck of Serie 2 have no more and no less than 2x Hobbit Sword), Faramir, Defender of Osgiliath and Reckless Counter.
Knight's Mount can do most of the job assigned previously to Gondor's Vengeance...
New Errand remains because is more viable than the wounding card for Knights (Men of Numenor, definitively not Take Cover, can protect only gondorians, and uses 1 event and 1 fortification instead of just 1 event) as far as you can spot a RB man (Boromir in this case). And because the deck must offer something more than only Boromir to a Ranger deck (RB or UB).
Gondor Will See It Done is key here for survival, as Southrons or Uruks (or even Sauron Grind) can take you for surprise.
So now is more Knight-oriented...
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Why can New Errand protect only protect Gondorians? An exhausted minion on the Ringbearer and poof, it goes. I can see it in the Ranger deck, but not within Knights tbh.
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I feel like New Errand does not fit in the deck at all. It is obviously a card for use with Ring-bound Rangers, and in this Knight deck it would just be an event you play when you are already winning a skirmish (as making the site number of a minion +2 provides no benefit to a knight). In the interest of keeping with the theme I think it should be removed.
Also, since every deck in Serie 1 has 2 Hobbit Sword, you should only get 1 here (just as you pointed out in the previous post with SHB).
I like the inclusion of 1 Fall Back - helps get rid of Mumaks, Fell Beasts, key weapons...
I would also include 1 Dagger Strike and either 1 Take Cover or 1 Rally Point. It's always nice to be able to play your "key" support cards over again.
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I like the list below with the following changes from the suggestions above:
2x Boromir, Steward's Heir
1x Faramir, Defender of Osgiliath
2x Gondorian Knight
1x Turgon, Man of Belfalas
1x Merry, From O'er the Brandywine
1x Armor
1x Banner of Westernesse
2x Knight's Mount
3x Sword of Gondor
2x Hobbit Sword
1x Elendil's Valor
1x Gondor Will See It Done
2x Might of Numenor
2x New Errand
1x Reckless Counter
2x War Must Be
1x Citadel of the Stars
3x City Wall
1x Garrison of Osgiliath
+1x Severed His Bonds
+2x Take Cover
Reasoning:
I like the inclusion of Faramir, DoO as he is a pretty balanced knight with a good Knight centric ability that won't be too powerful given the limited number of knights in the deck.
You need 2 Hobbit Sword in the deck, otherwise you will be choosing between playing one on Merry and one on Frodo. Remember, these are supposed to also be self-sufficient starters for the most part. If we really want to mix it up, exchange one hobbit sword for one Frying Pan, but otherwise you need 2 weapons, 1 for each hobbit.
Remove New Errand - not a knight card
Remove Reckless Counter - interesting choice, but it is outside of the block and we already have 2 cards in this deck from outside the block. I'd much rather see something from within the block that helps the knights more directly.
Add one Severed His Bonds for a minimal additional amount of Frodo protection (this way you can have 3 going into series 3/4 regardless of which deck choices you make).
Add 2 Take Cover - This allows you to play the card back after killing a minion (which is somewhat likely with knights) and allows a bit more utility to Citadel of the Stars, which is a staple knight card without making it over powered.
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After a play test, the knights are just a bit too strong.
http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=Merrick_H$a1qjv0cge98dws11
I'd like to propose the following:
Free Peoples Draw Deck:
2x Boromir, Steward's Heir
2x Gondorian Knight
1x Turgon, Man of Belfalas
1x Merry, From O'er the Brandywine
1x Armor
1x Banner of Westernesse
1x Knight's Mount
3x Sword of Gondor
2x Hobbit Sword
1x Elendil's Valor
1x Gondor Will See It Done
2x Might of Numenor
2x Take Cover
3x War Must Be
2x Severed His Bonds
1x Citadel of the Stars
3x City Wall
1x Garrison of Osgiliath
This drops 1 mount, and faramir (to prevent companion pulling), drops the companion count to 6.
Adds a third War Must Be and a second Severed His Bonds to make it so that people can have 4 in series 2.
Thoughts?
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This seems like a pretty good modification after seeing the second replay. I agree with having a second sword for Merry, forgot about him. It is a pretty focused deck with a good variety of tools. We'll see how playtesting goes against some of the other shadows.
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I took a look through the 2 threads and tried to gather all the loose ends here that haven't been addressed/resolved. Hopefully we can put a few of them to bed, or at least further the discussions.
1. Booster support
There were a couple suggestions on what to receive each Serie. All Sealed leagues currently provide 6 boosters in Serie 1 and 4, and 3 boosters in Serie 2 and 3. We don't have to stick with those numbers, particularly in Serie 2 and 3 since we are pulling from 2 blocks. I would suggest these 2 options, though there are several intermediate combinations that could be used as well:
(a) A customizable option
Serie 1: 1xSet 1, 1xSet 4, choice of 4 more from either set
Serie 2: 1xSet 2, 1xSet 5, choice of 1 more from either set
Serie 3: 1xSet 3, 1xSet 6, choice of 1 more from either set
Serie 4: Choice of 6 from any set 1-6
(b ) A structured option
Serie 1: 3xSet 1, 3xSet 4
Serie 2: 2xSet 2, 2xSet 5
Serie 3: 2xSet 3, 2xSet 6
Serie 4: 1 booster of each set 1-6
2. Crowd control
Easterlings - Easterling Pillager
Uruk Trackers - Enquea
Archery - ?? (Enquea was suggested here)
Sauron - The Number Must Be Few
Dunland - ?? (Enquea was suggested here)
Twilight Nazgul - ?? (Honestly this is the one I worry most about a large fellowship, as you typically will only have 2-3 minions and most aren't even Fierce)
Berserkers - ?? (Enquea was suggested here)
Southron - Southron Commander/Far Harad Mercenaries
Rohirrim Traitors - ??
3. Do we swap Gandwarf to the Sauron deck since it is the only FP capable of discarding conditions?
If we want to pair FP with a Shadow they can cope with, this makes more sense to me than Rohan. Plus the Rohan deck can heal all the archery wounds away.
4. Do we swap UB Rangers to the Berserker deck and Gandalf to the Nazgul deck?
This swap would prevent an "easy" choice of both corruption shadows coupled with both ranger freeps.
5. Do we move the Hunters/Uruk Trackers deck to Serie 3?
This options concedes that we will only have 9 decks, but takes care of the questions about the 3rd deck in Serie 3.
6. Do we move UB Rangers to Serie 3 and substitue with Smeagol/Hobbits?
UB Rangers and Knights in Serie 2 would be very Gondor heavy.
7. Do we combine Rohan decks and create a Trust deck without Rohan?
There was a suggestion very early on to create a Gandalf Depart Silently deck, but there are also options to make a Trust deck with some of the TT Gandalf signets, like Gimli UG and Legolas EC.
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I took a look through the 2 threads and tried to gather all the loose ends here that haven't been addressed/resolved. Hopefully we can put a few of them to bed, or at least further the discussions.
Thanks for doing this. This will definitely help us get some of the details hammered out.
1. Booster support
I would recommend this as it is similar to the Movie Block Sealed.
Serie 1: 2xSet 1, 2xSet 4, choice of 2 more from Sets 1-6
Serie 2: 1xSet 2, 1xSet 5, choice of 1 more from Sets 1-6
Serie 3: 1xSet 3, 1xSet 6, choice of 1 more from Sets 1-6
Serie 4: 6x Choice of 6 from any set 1-6
This allows people to try to get some things to fill in a strategy or give them direction on which starters to choose each series.
2. Crowd control
To some degree I think that we need to determine the deck order and composition before we go down the path of crowd control.
3. Do we swap Gandwarf to the Sauron deck since it is the only FP capable of discarding conditions?
That would be my vote.
4. Do we swap UB Rangers to the Berserker deck and Gandalf to the Nazgul deck?
Yes.
5. Do we move the Hunters/Uruk Trackers deck to Serie 3?
Yes
6. Do we move UB Rangers to Serie 3 and substitue with Smeagol/Hobbits?
Smeagol doesn't get a lot of good support until series 3. I don't think that leaving the UB rangers in series 2 is a problem, plus the hobbit fellowship is a pretty fragile/experimental one which means that it will be more in line with the decks in series 3.
7. Do we combine Rohan decks and create a Trust deck without Rohan?
I would be OK with that, but Rohan definitely needs to be in Series 1. The Trust deck is great for Frodo support if you can keep vitality on Gandalf.
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Why can New Errand protect only protect Gondorians? An exhausted minion on the Ringbearer and poof, it goes. I can see it in the Ranger deck, but not within Knights tbh.
I said Men of Numenor can only protect Gondorians. New Errand is way better, but you all are right, it should be in a Ranger deck instead... 2x in the RB Rangers deck is my vote.
I'd like to propose the following:
Free Peoples Draw Deck:
2x Boromir, Steward's Heir
2x Gondorian Knight
1x Turgon, Man of Belfalas
1x Merry, From O'er the Brandywine
1x Armor
1x Banner of Westernesse
1x Knight's Mount
3x Sword of Gondor
2x Hobbit Sword
1x Elendil's Valor
1x Gondor Will See It Done
2x Might of Numenor
2x Take Cover
3x War Must Be
2x Severed His Bonds
1x Citadel of the Stars
3x City Wall
1x Garrison of Osgiliath
This drops 1 mount, and faramir (to prevent companion pulling), drops the companion count to 6.
Adds a third War Must Be and a second Severed His Bonds to make it so that people can have 4 in series 2.
Thoughts?
New Errand was there for Frodo protection, but that's out...
Severed His Bonds shouldn't be in the final decklist as Serie 1 provides 2 copies; for testing purposes those can be added but not in the final deck. That leaves 2 free slots...
Faramir can be out but the companion count should be 6 excluding Frodo: 5 Knights and Merry. Otherwise transferring fortifications can cost exertions in good part of many games... a 3rd Gondorian Knight should be enough, or even a Knight of Dol Amroth as the outsider card count is now 1 in absense of Faramir and Reckless Counter.
If there's only one Knight's Mount double moves won't happen frequently... The 5th Knight and the mount complete those 2 slots previously mentioned.
I like the 3rd War Must Be. I'd replace a Take Cover with a Fall Back, to add another tool to the hat...
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1. Booster support I fully agree with Merrick's idea.
2. Crowd control Will answer later...
3. Do we swap Gandwarf to the Sauron deck since it is the only FP capable of discarding conditions?
Yes. Your reason is quite logical.
4. Do we swap UB Rangers to the Berserker deck and Gandalf to the Nazgul deck?
Would prefer to have only one Gondor deck in 2nd Serie. Gandy with Nazgul get my vote.
5. Do we move the Hunters/Uruk Trackers deck to Serie 3?
Definitively NOT. Three Hunters and Uruk Trackers have most cards in set 4. I'd rather have 4 deck choices in 1st Serie (see below)...
6. Do we move UB Rangers to Serie 3 and substitue with Smeagol/Hobbits?
Smeagol + Hobbits should be in 3rd Serie. Ents + UB Hobbits will be there, so Smeagol's deck can have only RB Hobbits and use other support (Boromir, SoD comes to my mind)...
7. Do we combine Rohan decks and create a Trust deck without Rohan?
Absolutely yes! Gandalf shouldn't be an accesory of Rohan. And those Rohirrim themes (allies and Valiant) can merge perfectly in absense of Gandalf, as my draft shows. That draft has 5 allies, and the other one has only 3.
There should be a Gandalf centered deck in Serie 2, with TMAYOD, Depart Silently and some Gandalf signets (Gimli, Legolas, Sam, maybe Aragorn and Boromir)... I'm working on one but won't post it in the next hours as I lack the time.
I'd add another question:
8. Do we give 4 deck choices at Serie 1, just as 1st Serie of WOTR Sealed has 4?
Gandwarves, RB Rangers, Rohan and Three Hunters.
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We already established not including Boromir, Son of Denethor in any of the decks. And I'm against 4 deck choices in series 1.
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We already established not including Boromir, Son of Denethor in any of the decks. And I'm against 4 deck choices in series 1.
I was going to make a new topic regarding cards that we can't include in the preconstructed starters, but we could just keep an updated list here.
So far this is what we have:
The No-no Cards
1. Cavern Entrance (Limits the use of events and makes swarm much easier in an environment already susceptible to swarm)
2. Boromir, Son of Denethor (Basically the other extreme here. Usually, all the FP needs to do is keep wounds off of him till site 8/9 or hold him in hand before final push)
3. Sam, Samwise the Brave (Just added this one. After testing with Merrick, we found this card completely shuts down any corruption-themed decks. It's just too strong)
Let me know if you guys can think of any more...
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I too would be against 4 choices in series 1. Too much development and too many choices for so limited a card pool. The Movie Block Sealed format has 3 decks per series and they don't cover all the themes (there is no real besieger theme, no corsair theme, no Sauron Orc theme... etc.) Here is the breakdown of movie block sealed decks:
http://lotrtcgwiki.com/wiki/sealed-movie
I think we are giving more variety in the types of decks with a more limited pool as is. I don't think we need 10 decks to provide the variety that you are looking for.
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I too would be against 4 choices in series 1. Too much development and too many choices for so limited a card pool. The Movie Block Sealed format has 3 decks per series and they don't cover all the themes (there is no real besieger theme, no corsair theme, no Sauron Orc theme... etc.) Here is the breakdown of movie block sealed decks:
http://lotrtcgwiki.com/wiki/sealed-movie
I think we are giving more variety in the types of decks with a more limited pool as is. I don't think we need 10 decks to provide the variety that you are looking for.
I don't try to include 1 more deck for simple variety, but for coupling purposes. It needs to be at 1st Serie, is of little use at 2nd or 3rd...
Also there's little space left for Hard Choice, Ents and Shoulder to Shoulder, so wasting 2 deck choices with Rohan decks that can naturally merge into 1 is pointless. Depending on which Gondor deck will be in the 3rd Serie, Hard Choice can be merged with UB Rangers, or Smeagol with RB Rangers...
We have demonstrated it's actually very easy to make an efficient Sauron deck, even without Forces of Mordor... and our decks are better in flavor and representativeness than those of Revised Movie Sealed. Anarion? Dwarves and Gondor? Gandalf with Elven Archery? Old lame Blade Tip + Black Breath? Revised Movie Sealed is my favorite sealed league... But we can achieve much higher goals with the drafts we have right now.
I think we make a great team, each with his own skills and traits... and MADNESS!!
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I've been building an Ents deck. But first I want to mention an idea about choking cards...
As Shadow decks are weaker at first series, choking can be too powerful there. If we go in Serie 3 with 'Ents + UB Hobbits', 'Smeagol + RB Hobbits' and 'Rangers' (RB or UB), would be a natural way of focusing choke cards like No Stranger to the Shadows, Bill the Pony and A Talent for Not Being Seen in this last choice, when previous decks and booster pulls make much stronger shadows...
My point is: we shouldn't include cards like No Stranger To The Shadows or A Talent for Not Being Seen until Serie 3. Previous decks should lack those choking mechansims...
Here is the Ents draft:
(33 cards)
1x Birchseed, Tall Statesman
2x Ent Avenger
1x Host of Fangorn
1x Quickbeam, Bregalad
2x Treebeard, Guardian of the Forest
1x Merry, From O'er the Brandywine
1x Pippin, Friend to Frodo
3x Hobbit Sword
3x Boomed and Trumpeted
2x Crack Into Rubble
2x Roused
2x Hobbit Intuition
2x Long Slow Wrath
2x Meant to Be Alone
1x Seek and Hide
3x Ent Moot
1x A Talent for Not Being Seen
1x Good Work
1x Kept Safe
1x There and Back Again
I know, it should be 3 cards less... just discount those 3x Hobbit Sword.
8 companions, that's huge, but Ents can't work well with only 5 or 6... besides at this point everyone should have good crowd control cards.
5 skirimish events for Ents, and 4 for UB Hobbits... Meant To Be Alone is a gamble to allow swifter moves: to play an Ent and try to remove the twilight it gives. Birchseed heals wounds from UB Hobbits and Kept Safe prevents them.
Seek and Hide is a crazy thought to prevent multiple wounds to an Ent.
Can't find room for Hobbit Appetite...
Any thought?
"'Cause I'm as Tree as a Beard now
And this Beard you cannot change"
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There are some outsider cards that look like very interesting additions: Skinbark, Elder Ent; Momentous Gathering; The Terror of His Coming; Be Gone!; The Flame of Anor (nice replacement for Roused); Vapour and Steam (for double moves).
I won't add more than 2 of those titles. The Flame of Anor and Vapour and Steam are my favourites, as this deck will need respectively better and less exerting pumps, and more ways of clearing the table for double moves than just Treebeard (Good Work can get rid of burdens added this way)...
"Won't you fly high Treebeard yeah!"
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There already is an Ent starter, do we really need another version of it? Plus, its getting too much outside TS for my taste.
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I agree with Euk.
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There already is an Ent starter, do we really need another version of it? Plus, its getting too much outside TS for my taste.
Those outsider cards are just ideas, they aren't yet included in the draft. Actually the draft is 100% TS.
As for the Ents starter: there is already one, but there is too a RB Rangers starter (Faramir's), a Valiant Rohan starter (Eowyn's), a Three Hunters starter (Two Towers Aragorn's)... And YES, we need other versions of all them: to make them more competitive, versatile, representative, to merge more than 1 theme into only 1 deck, and to be able to create new themes and strategies by combination of decks from different Series.
Ents aren't less important than Smeagol. They have 17 cards in Towers Block while Smeagol has only 11 (and Gollum 9). Ents were the ones who ended Saruman's threat; by the way I think this deck should be paired with Isengard Traitors.
I know my decklist seems somewhat similar to Decipher's, but it's the best I could do with the format's restriction: 1-6 sets and poorman resources. Anyway look by yourself and notice the differences:
(24 cards)
3x Ent Avenger
1x Host of Fangorn
1x Quickbeam, Bregalad
1x Skinbark, Fladrif (AI R)
1x Merry, Learned Guide
1x Pippin, Woolly-footed Rascal
2x Hobbit Sword
2x Boomed and Trumpeted
3x Roused
2x Knocked on the Head
2x Long Slow Wrath
2x Severed His Bonds
1x Enraged (AI R)
2x Ent Moot
Those UB Hobbits are the discardable ones (Merry, FOtB is way better). It lacks Treebeard, Birchseed, Crack Into Rubble, burden removal (Good Work), twilight reducing cards (Meant To Be Alone, ATfNBS), Seek and Hide (damage nullification), has less hobbit pumps (Hobbit Intuition and TABA)...
Also, the starter deck has 2 rare cards...
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On the subject of the Hobbit Hospital deck, I'm going to respond a little out of order:
Anyway, as Merrick said before we shouldn't provide 4 copies of a same card to give more utility to booster pulls (Great idea! :up:), and adding 2x SHB would reach that number (given the ones from Serie 1); the same goes for 4x Poor Wretch. Cutting off 1 of each would allow 2 empty card slots for free disposal.
We need to decide if this deck will be in Serie 2 or 3, as in the first case it should have 2x Hobbit Sword... I'd leave it in the 2nd due to, IMO, to saturate the 2nd Serie with 2 Gondor decks would be a big mistake; Knight cards are available only on Set 5, so UB Rangers should be moved to the 3rd.
Yeah, let's pull a poor wretch, even though it is a pretty important Smeagol card. If this is in series 3, which is where the experimental decks are, and where this is currently placed, I think we should get rid of the 2x SHB and the Hobbit Sword as people will have access to those from series 1 and 2. That gives us 4 slots to work with.
Some additional ideas:
Boromir, Son of Denethor can replace some events to turn hobbits into fighting machines (and has the Frodo signet for MYOA). Good Work can be more efficient for burden removal than Brace of Coneys (especially if Boromir, SoD is added). Wingfoot for doubles. Hobbit Appetite for healing; Meant to Be Alone for choking...
As was said earlier, no Boromir, SoD. He is too powerful in a sealed environment. I could see adding a Wingfoot or two, a Kept Safe and 2x Swiftly and Softly to give just that little extra bit of hobbit protection. If we don't add Wingfoot though, that does make this deck a semi-natural pairing with the Three Hunters deck that is now in Series 1. I think this deck will be a popular choice due to the strength pumps for hobbits and the fact that there is a guaranteed Sam. Do not under estimate the power of direct Frodo protection.
With that said, this is the new proposed list:
1x Smeagol, Poor Creature
1x Merry, From O'er the Brandywine
1x Pippin, Friend to Frodo
1x Sam, Nice Sensible Hobbit
1x Bounder
1x Rosie Cotton, Hobbiton Lass
2x Brace of Coneys
2x Don't Follow the Lights
2x Not Listening
3x Hobbit Intuition
2x Stout and Sturdy
1x It Burns Us OR Aragorn, Wingfoot
2x Mind Your Own Affairs
3x Poor Wretch
1x A Talent for Not Being Seen
1x Rare Good Ballast
1x There and Back Again
2x Swiftly and Softly
1x Kept Safe
1x Frying Pan
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On the subject of the Hobbit Hospital deck, I'm going to respond a little out of order:
Anyway, as Merrick said before we shouldn't provide 4 copies of a same card to give more utility to booster pulls (Great idea! :up:), and adding 2x SHB would reach that number (given the ones from Serie 1); the same goes for 4x Poor Wretch. Cutting off 1 of each would allow 2 empty card slots for free disposal.
We need to decide if this deck will be in Serie 2 or 3, as in the first case it should have 2x Hobbit Sword... I'd leave it in the 2nd due to, IMO, to saturate the 2nd Serie with 2 Gondor decks would be a big mistake; Knight cards are available only on Set 5, so UB Rangers should be moved to the 3rd.
Yeah, let's pull a poor wretch, even though it is a pretty important Smeagol card. If this is in series 3, which is where the experimental decks are, and where this is currently placed, I think we should get rid of the 2x SHB and the Hobbit Sword as people will have access to those from series 1 and 2. That gives us 4 slots to work with.
Some additional ideas:
Boromir, Son of Denethor can replace some events to turn hobbits into fighting machines (and has the Frodo signet for MYOA). Good Work can be more efficient for burden removal than Brace of Coneys (especially if Boromir, SoD is added). Wingfoot for doubles. Hobbit Appetite for healing; Meant to Be Alone for choking...
As was said earlier, no Boromir, SoD. He is too powerful in a sealed environment. I could see adding a Wingfoot or two, a Kept Safe and 2x Swiftly and Softly to give just that little extra bit of hobbit protection. If we don't add Wingfoot though, that does make this deck a semi-natural pairing with the Three Hunters deck that is now in Series 1. I think this deck will be a popular choice due to the strength pumps for hobbits and the fact that there is a guaranteed Sam. Do not under estimate the power of direct Frodo protection.
With that said, this is the new proposed list:
1x Smeagol, Poor Creature
1x Merry, From O'er the Brandywine
1x Pippin, Friend to Frodo
1x Sam, Nice Sensible Hobbit
1x Bounder
1x Rosie Cotton, Hobbiton Lass
2x Brace of Coneys
2x Don't Follow the Lights
2x Not Listening
3x Hobbit Intuition
2x Stout and Sturdy
1x It Burns Us OR Aragorn, Wingfoot
2x Mind Your Own Affairs
3x Poor Wretch
1x A Talent for Not Being Seen
1x Rare Good Ballast
1x There and Back Again
2x Swiftly and Softly
1x Kept Safe
1x Frying Pan
I think it would be OK to have the Frodo stay as Master of the Precious. Even though we're not building anything substantial on the regroup Isengard Orcs, there is the still the off-chance that Rare Good Ballast may come in handy, in which case Frodo could pull Smeagol again :)
As there are a lot of advantages to choosing this deck already (Frodo pump support and Sam, as you mentioned). I think It Burns Us is an OK option instead of Wingfoot. Since it IS going to be combined with other decks, I don't think we need to worry that we would be crippling it necessarily.
I like where the deck is settling into. The addition of Brace of Coneys was a good idea from my original draft...they deck just had so many burden adding cards and not a lot of take away other than Not Listening. Even though its experimental, I think it does stand to have a chance at being picked just for strong hobbit dynamics :)
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I'm going to post this in the decklists thread.
2x Gimli, Unbidden Guest
2x Farin, Dwarven Emissary
2x Fror, Gimli's Kinsman
2x Legolas, Archer of Mirkwood
2x Haldir, Emissary of the Galadhrim
1x Grimir, Dwarven Elder
1x Thrarin, Dwarven Smith
1x Golradir, Councilor of Imladris
1x Saelbeth, Elven Councilor
2x Dwarven Axe
2x Dwarven Bracers
2x Elven Sword
2x Shoulder to Shoulder
2x Khazad Ai-menu
2x Valor
2x Feathered
2x Ancient Enmity
Here is my rationale on the cards that I chose from the original proposed list:
2x Dwarven Axe
2x Dwarven Bracers
2x Hand Axe
We already have 2 of each in the Dwarf/Gandalf deck. I'd like to limit the number of hand axes if possible partially because they are free and can play with a second weapon as well as being a free archery. If this deck is combined with the Dwarves of series 1, then they will have 4x Dwarven Axes, 4x Dwarven Bracers and 4 dwarf companions.
2x Khazad Ai-menu
2x Axe Strike
There are 3 Axe Strike in the Dwarf deck and Khazad Ai-menu fits better with the Dwarves and elves theme.
2x Valor
2x Feathered
2x Ancient Enmity
I don't want the discarding to get too out of hand. The others are pretty solid pumps.
As this is a series 3 deck, I dropped the Hobbit Swords as people will have access to 3-4 from series 1 & 2.
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I know no one wants to see an Ents deck, but I'll post it anyway:
Ents + Gandalf
Ring-bearer: Frodo, Mr. Underhill or Tired Traveller
(30 cards)
1x Birchseed, Tall Statesman
3x Gandalf, The White Wizard
1x Host of Fangorn
1x Quickbeam, Bregalad
2x Treebeard, Guardian of the Forest
1x Merry, Horticulturalist
1x Pippin, Friend to Frodo
1x Barliman Butterbur, Prancing Pony Proprietor
1x Wizard Staff
2x Hobbit Sword
1x Crack Into Rubble
1x Have Patience
1x Introspection (outsider card)
1x Roll of Thunder
2x The Terror of His Coming (outsider card)
1x Wielder of the Flame
2x Hobbit Intuition
2x Ent Moot
2x Trust Me as You Once Did
1x Good Work
1x Kept Safe
1x There and Back Again
Key Sites:
2 Fangorn Forest (to get Treebeard ASAP)
3 Golden Hall (it can't touch Ents nor Gandalf)
This deck counts with the common 6-cards Gandalf-coupling-kit: 3x Gandalf, 2x TMAYOD and 1x Wizard Staff. Have Patience and Roll of Thunder are interesting options too...
7 companions besides Frodo, but 2 are weak UB Hobbits. Might even cut the Ent Avenger. This deck needs at least 4 companions: Gandalf, Merry, Treebeard and another Ent...
That Merry seems useless... but completes the 3 Gandalf signets for TMAYOD. And that's as strong as we know. If he gets killed, things will start to fall...
Ents are weak to crowd control... if we include enough crowd control cards at Series 1 and 2, this deck will have huge natural cons. Enquea can kill Gandalf or Merry easily, and cripple the fellowship heavily...
Given the previous point, there's an alternate starting fellowship than the old Merry + Pippin + Quickbeam one... Start Merry for the Gandalf signet, and Birchseed. He can heal Merry's exertions, so you have a fresh UB Hobbit for Ent Moot or Treebeard's assignment. That way we reduce the companion count by 1, the other 2 to get 5 can be Gandalf and Treebeard...
Wizard event tricks are 2 generic [Gandalf] pumps, 1x Have Patience, 1x Wielder of the Flame, 1x Roll of Thunder for possession control and 1x Introspection for condition control (and 1x Crack Into Rubble, but it's not for Gandalf but Ents).
Introspection is an outsider, as the only non-rare TS options for condition control are Deep in Thought and Sleep Caradhras, those would be OP. Other outsider options are: Fool's Hope, No Colour Now, New-Awakened... Crack Into Rubble fulfills the purpose, althought it's not for couplings without Ents. Introspection is better for Gandalf.
The other outsider card is The Terror of His Coming, a generic pump for [Gandalf] companions that can bring back to hand TMAYOD or Ent Moot in battleground sites... may be replaced with a TS or outsider card, but it's the best generic pump I could find. There aren't generic pumps for [Gandalf] companions besides TMAYOD (SotSF is rare), maybe Strength of Spirit with TMAYOD can do the work instead, wouldn't be bad really. Other outsider pump options are: The Flame of Anor (not usable in Gandalf coupled decks), For A While Less Dark (+2 strength and nothing more), Look to my Coming (OP), Inspiration (OP and out of place), Be Gone!, The Sap Is In The Bough...
Kept Safe is here for protection, and Good Work for burden control...
You all have my permission to tear this draft apart... But with logical argumentats and counterarguments if possible.
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My photoshop skills aren't what they used to be, but here's a mock-up of what the artwork for the starters will looks like. Between now and January I'll be able to do them all.
Underneath the logo, we can name each starter.
Should we just call this one, Rohan & Gandalf, or make fancy names like "Look to My Coming" or "Down from the Hills"?
Then of course we would have to make silly fancy names for them all XD
I was planning on just using the FP as the outside artwork for the deck, which is more common in starter decks.
Anyway, hopefully this will make it a little more exciting when people are picking their starters :)
Thanks for all of the work and support thus far!
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I have some spare silliness to share! Just can't run out of it...
But if we give fancy names to the decks, there's a risk we won't have space to give explicative hints about the content... I mean, something plain like 'Gandalf + Hobbits' (in Revised Movie Sealed) gives more crucial information than 'That Old Conjuror of Cheap Tricks'...
If the explicative name is shown with the 3 deck choices, and after you choose one the corresponding fancy name pops out, that would be very amusing!
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I have to agree with Durin's Heir here. The artwork will help people know what is in the starter, however I believe that having a simple descriptive name will be beneficial. Once decks are finalized, I'll make sure to have a page on the wiki that details the format just like what was done for the Revised Movie format.
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Straightforward deck names it is.
Rather than surfing google, I am going to try to take screenshots directly from the movies for all of them, so that the image quality is better and I can get exactly which image we want.
That being said, I'm welcoming everyone's input for any particular scene that they know about that would provide a good image for this. I realize some of them will probably require photoshopping, rather than just a straight screenshot, which is fine.
Here's what we have for deck names and corresponding images.
Serie 1
Dwarves & Gandalf - image: Gandalf and Gimli together
Rohan - image: mounted Rohirrim (MANY options for this one I'm sure)
The Three Hunters - image: Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas together
Serie 2
Gondor Knights - image: Knights together, maybe with Boromir as the focal point (Towers extended has this scene I think...again lots of options here).
Unbound Rangers - image: Aragorn and Arwen together? Aragorn and Boromir? Still up in the air about this one, could use some input
Ringbound Rangers - image: Rangers of Ithilien together
Serie 3
Dwarves & Elves or Shoulder to Shoulder - image: Gimli and Legolas together
Hobbits & Smeagol - image: something that has Frodo, Sam and Smeagol all together, that shot at the end of TT in the Osgiliath ruins came to mind
Rohan & Gandalf - image: already done! up for your critique
I wonder if we can just call Dwarves and Elves "shoulder to shoulder", as with the deck image it should be self explanatory.
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As much as some might not want to hear, I actually think there is some good rationale with what DurinsHeir is saying. I honestly think making a nerfed Trust fellowship available in Serie 2 makes a lot of sense. You could include a couple Ents (Unhasty ones), and a couple Gandalf signet folks, a few Wizard tricks, and 2 x Trust. I would pair the it with the Twilight Nazgul, as it could fight decently and would have Gandalf to remove conditions. I would move the Unbound Rangers to Serie 3. You could either pair the UB Rangers with berserkers (in place of the Trust/Rohan) or with Southron and swap Shoulder to berserkers. And finally I would revamp the Serie 1 Rohan deck to DurinsHeir's suggested Valiant & Allies deck.
I agree that having 3 Gondor decks in Serie 2 is not appealing, despite the fact that they are all very different. The Serie 1 Rohan deck would be all Gandalf signets. The Serie 1 Hunters deck has Gandalf signets. The Serie 1 Dwarf deck has Gandalf. All 3 decks could couple very nicely with a Serie 2 Trust deck. It's possible it could be too popular due to these reasons.
It won't hurt my feelings if nobody is interested but I wanted to lend some support to DurinsHeir. I can't quite tell if it is too badly nerfed, but as DurinsHeir suggested, playtesting a couple games should tell you pretty quickly.
Here is my stab:
2x Gandalf The White Wizard
2x Legolas Prince of Mirkwood
1x Birchseed
1x Forest Guardian
1x Merry From O'er the Brandywine
1x Pippin Mr. Took
1x Barliman Butterbur
2x Hobbit Sword
1x Wizard Staff
1x Elven Sword
1x Good Work
1x Behold the White Rider
2x Trust Me As You Once Did
2x Boomed and Trumpeted
1x Severed His Bonds
2x Defiance
2x Intimidate
2x Mysterious Wizard
1x Sleep Caradhras
1x Task Was Not Done
1x Roll of Thunder
1x Wielder of the Flame
The point is to have many Gandalf tricks, choose what you like. This deck only provides 3 Gandalf signets, partly to make it less powerful but also because every Serie 1 deck has at least 1 Gandalf signet. Included a little bit of anti-Nazgul with PoM and Defiance, plus Good Work for some burden help so the deck can stand up to Twilight Nazgul.
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As much as some might not want to hear, I actually think there is some good rationale with what DurinsHeir is saying. I honestly think making a nerfed Trust fellowship available in Serie 2 makes a lot of sense. You could include a couple Ents (Unhasty ones), and a couple Gandalf signet folks, a few Wizard tricks, and 2 x Trust. I would pair the it with the Twilight Nazgul, as it could fight decently and would have Gandalf to remove conditions. I would move the Unbound Rangers to Serie 3. You could either pair the UB Rangers with berserkers (in place of the Trust/Rohan) or with Southron and swap Shoulder to berserkers. And finally I would revamp the Serie 1 Rohan deck to DurinsHeir's suggested Valiant & Allies deck.
I agree that having 3 Gondor decks in Serie 2 is not appealing, despite the fact that they are all very different. The Serie 1 Rohan deck would be all Gandalf signets. The Serie 1 Hunters deck has Gandalf signets. The Serie 1 Dwarf deck has Gandalf. All 3 decks could couple very nicely with a Serie 2 Trust deck. It's possible it could be too popular due to these reasons.
It won't hurt my feelings if nobody is interested but I wanted to lend some support to DurinsHeir. I can't quite tell if it is too badly nerfed, but as DurinsHeir suggested, playtesting a couple games should tell you pretty quickly.
Here is my stab:
2x Gandalf The White Wizard
2x Legolas Prince of Mirkwood
1x Birchseed
1x Forest Guardian
1x Merry From O'er the Brandywine
1x Pippin Mr. Took
1x Barliman Butterbur
2x Hobbit Sword
1x Wizard Staff
1x Elven Sword
1x Good Work
1x Behold the White Rider
2x Trust Me As You Once Did
2x Boomed and Trumpeted
1x Severed His Bonds
2x Defiance
2x Intimidate
2x Mysterious Wizard
1x Sleep Caradhras
1x Task Was Not Done
1x Roll of Thunder
1x Wielder of the Flame
The point is to have many Gandalf tricks, choose what you like. This deck only provides 3 Gandalf signets, partly to make it less powerful but also because every Serie 1 deck has at least 1 Gandalf signet. Included a little bit of anti-Nazgul with PoM and Defiance, plus Good Work for some burden help so the deck can stand up to Twilight Nazgul.
I see where you're coming from, but in doing this it really would cripple Rohan's chance at having a good deck by Serie 3. With booster pulls alone, it's not going to cut the mustard with what is provided in the Valliant and Allies proposal.
Something that would be very good to see in this league is Rohan getting a shot at being strong, or even just competitive in Serie 3 for once. This almost never happens in any other sealed thus far.
If we did it this way would make a clear Fellowship choice path of choosing Three Hunters+Gandalf Ents+Shoulder to Shoulder.
This is what you would see everyone doing:
Frodo, TT or MU
Legolas, PoM
Gimli, UG
Aragorn, HoE
Gandalf, TWW
Haldir, EoTG
Dwarf Companion
Dwarf Allies
Elf Allies
Shoulder to Shoulder
TMAYOD
Each companion that can have a signet would be gandalf, Aragorn is defender +1, all companions twinked out with possessions
Easy healing with board-clearing skirmishing ability and potential for direct wounding.
Sure people might try something different, but if I was aiming to win, this would be the deck I choose every time.
By having Gandalf and Trust with Rohan, you are at least needed to make an investment in Rohan to get the benefits of it. I also think its important that we don't include a Legolas with the Gandalf signet in the starters just to broaden the meta a little bit.
What seems to be the main point to address is there being only Gondor to pick from in Serie 2.
This can be easily solved by swapping the Unbound Rangers with the Gandalf&Rohan. Keep the shadows where they are to prevent overlapping of the two corruption decks.
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It won't hurt my feelings if nobody is interested but I wanted to lend some support to DurinsHeir.
Well, I'm not interested... just kidding. Really thanks! :up: I was feeling lonely here in my island... :'(
As much as some might not want to hear, I actually think there is some good rationale with what DurinsHeir is saying. I honestly think making a nerfed Trust fellowship available in Serie 2 makes a lot of sense. You could include a couple Ents (Unhasty ones), and a couple Gandalf signet folks, a few Wizard tricks, and 2 x Trust. I would pair the it with the Twilight Nazgul, as it could fight decently and would have Gandalf to remove conditions. I would move the Unbound Rangers to Serie 3. You could either pair the UB Rangers with berserkers (in place of the Trust/Rohan) or with Southron and swap Shoulder to berserkers. And finally I would revamp the Serie 1 Rohan deck to DurinsHeir's suggested Valiant & Allies deck.
I agree that having 3 Gondor decks in Serie 2 is not appealing, despite the fact that they are all very different. The Serie 1 Rohan deck would be all Gandalf signets. The Serie 1 Hunters deck has Gandalf signets. The Serie 1 Dwarf deck has Gandalf. All 3 decks could couple very nicely with a Serie 2 Trust deck. It's possible it could be too popular due to these reasons.
That way we kill 3 birds with a single stone: another option than Gondor at Serie 2, a Gandalf deck and some Gondorian coupling potential.
=D>
The flavor of having 2 Gondor decks at Serie 2, the Ithilien Rangers and the Osgiliath Knights, as separate options to choose looks very appealing ;D! And to leave UB Rangers at Serie 3 allows for some limited but decent coupling: can share Ranger tricks with Boromir in Knights deck, or with everyone in RB Rangers one; generic Gondorian stuff too: Athelas, Dagger Strike, Might of Numenor, Boromir's Gauntlets... And it would justify any loose end for the inclusion of THAT Boromir in particular in Knights deck (a much-needed coupling bridge between Rangers and Knights). And both decks with 1x Elendil's Valor would remain at the same Serie...
Besides, UB Rangers seem to be the most powerful Gondor draft at the moment, thus delaying them to Serie 3 looks wise. And that way we could implement an idea I threw some time ago about choking cards: to release choking mechanisms at 3rd Serie and not before, because in previous Series shadow decks can be too weak (or twilight dependant) to assault them with No Stranger to the Shadows, Bill the Pony, A Talent for Not Being Seen... even Meant To Be Alone.
You point out well when say the Gandalf deck can be too popular, so we must limit carefully it's coupling potential...
I can't quite tell if it is too badly nerfed, but as DurinsHeir suggested, playtesting a couple games should tell you pretty quickly.
Here is my stab:
2x Gandalf The White Wizard
2x Legolas Prince of Mirkwood
1x Birchseed
1x Forest Guardian
1x Merry From O'er the Brandywine
1x Pippin Mr. Took
1x Barliman Butterbur
2x Hobbit Sword
1x Wizard Staff
1x Elven Sword
1x Good Work
1x Behold the White Rider
2x Trust Me As You Once Did
2x Boomed and Trumpeted
1x Severed His Bonds
2x Defiance
2x Intimidate
2x Mysterious Wizard
1x Sleep Caradhras
1x Task Was Not Done
1x Roll of Thunder
1x Wielder of the Flame
The point is to have many Gandalf tricks, choose what you like. This deck only provides 3 Gandalf signets, partly to make it less powerful but also because every Serie 1 deck has at least 1 Gandalf signet. Included a little bit of anti-Nazgul with PoM and Defiance, plus Good Work for some burden help so the deck can stand up to Twilight Nazgul.
I like your version, that Legolas is a good addition and the Elven Sword can't be abused given those Unhasty Ents. The sword can ease the weight of the Elven Sword count to the S2S deck, and use that slot for a Naith Longbow instead...
I'm not the one who can say if it's badly nerfed. Experience will tell us...
(https://lotrtcgwiki.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia-cache-ec0.pinimg.com%2F236x%2Fde%2F5b%2F8c%2Fde5b8c3f677a1ccc45eb1d49c7f5188c.jpg&hash=011adf4bb31296d764aa2b81caf7c84d3aa624bd)
Anyway, there are some points we need to consider when nerfing (or even building) an Ent deck:
Strength: they have good base strength, but only 2 pumps (Roused and Boomed and Trumpeted) and one "permanent" aid (Ent Moot)... If we exclude Host of Fangorn and Treebeard, each Ent will have only 8 base strength and pumps will be much needed; TMAYOD can exhaust Gandalf easily... I think we can exclude either Ent Moot or Treebeard, but not both (keep in mind Treebeard requires exerting an UB Hobbit to be assigned, that's very costly). Or add generic outsider pumps as The Terror of His Coming.
Minion killing/discarding ways: they have only 2 Damage bonus cards (Boomed and Trumpeted and Treebeard, Guardian of the Forest). And no minion discarding one. That may be aided with copies of Gandy's Task Was Not Done. And please no one mention overwhelming....
Wounds: they have great vitality, but no healing cards and many exertion requirements: Roused, Crack Into Rubble, Treebeard, Birchseed. And Unhasty circumventing exhasts UB Hobbits easily. Strength of Spirit can help.
Overpopullation: some cards require presence of many companions, with a clear risk of Shotgun Enquea. Boomed and Trumpeted, Roused, Ent Avenger, Crack Into Rubble, Host of Fangorn... Add Gandalf to the mix for TMAYOD and it's unlikely you will need less than 6 companions (3 Hobbits, a Wizard and... only one Ent?)...
So we need to nerf it without neglecting too much those weak points... Limiting Ent count to 3 or 4 max is an easy one.
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Without actually playing a league, the decks you would choose in your head aren't necessarily the best. If you go the path you mention you are not getting Sam or really any burden protection. With 2 dedicated corruption decks you could easily be overlooking the power of other fellowships. I would choose the Hobbit deck over the Shoulder deck. But again this is all speculation at this point. I think as we start combining decks we may reveal some issues with unstoppable fellowships.
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I was thinking about the Shoulder to Shoulder deck, there are two different ideas by now...
Eukalyptus' Dwarves+Elves Draft:
http://lotrtcgwiki.com/forums/index.php/topic,9003.msg87785.html#msg87785
Merrick's Shoulder to Shoulder Draft:
http://lotrtcgwiki.com/forums/index.php/topic,9003.msg88325.html#msg88325
There's a different approach we could try...
'Lend Us Your Shoulders!' draft:
1x Fror, Gimli's Kinsman
1x Gimli, Unbidden Guest (starting)
2x Haldir, Emissary of the Galadhrim
1x Legolas, Archer of Mirkwood (starting)
1x Pengedhel, Naith Warrior
1x Thonnas, Naith Captain
1x Grimir, Dwarven Elder
1x Thrarin, Dwarven Smith
1x Golradir, Councilor of Imladris
1x Saelbeth, Elven Councilor
1x Dwarven Axe
1x Dwarven Bracers
1x Hand Axe
1x Elven Brooch
1x Elven Sword
2x Naith Longbow
2x Khazad Ai-menu
2x Lend Us Your Aid
2x Feathered
2x Valor
2x Endurance of Dwarves
2x Shoulder to Shoulder
Key Sites:
1 Plains of Rohan (over Eastemnet Gullies)
3 Barrows of Edoras
5 Helm's Gate
6 Hornburg Armory
This draft was build with a coupling perspective (Three Hunters, Gandwarves or mounted Rohan). And is more directed to the Naith Elves theme. 6 companions (2 Dwarves, 4 Elves) plus Frodo, 4 allies, Shoulder to Shoulder to share wounds and Legolas, AoM to heal them...
Characters: In the current deck, there is too little elven presence (2 redundant companions from Three Hunters) and too many dwarves. There is chance of very powerful pulls that would need to spot more elves: TINOH, The Seen and the Unseen, Naith Troop, Naith Warband, LIMW, Blades Drawn... Also, there is already a Dwarven deck but no Elven deck.
Farin was removed as he's of little help as Orc Shadows aren't many (Archery and Sauron Grind... Morgul Skulker in Twilight Nazgul). Fror is there just to give additional dwarven presence (in case Gimli gets killed), but I'd rather have Thrarin, SoE or Dwarven Warrior, as he will be pretty useless most of the time. Outsider cards count is an issue, I know... Maybe I'll replace Fror with Naith Troop.
Companion count is 1x for each, except Haldir. Those versions of Gimli and Legolas are found in Three Hunters and Gandwarves (2x), are the obvious starting companions and StS can clean their wounds, so more copies wouldn't be much useful really... And Gimli has 2x Endurance of Dwarves here and a Dwarven Bracers to prevent his death...
If you happen to start first, Plains of Rohan is better than Eastemnet Gullies in order to get a fresh Gimli and start a heavy elven fighter besides Legolas (Thonnas or Pengedhel, as they need to spot an elf).
Gimli is meant to be a heavy support character instead of a tank fighter. With a max of 5 vitality and both Legolas and StS to clean those wounds from him, he can prevent key losses or overwhelmings with a moderate cost, and keep Legolas winning most of his skirimishes...
Conditions and Healing: 2x Shoulder to Shoulder and 2x Endurance of Dwarves. Explained above. S2S only moves wounds but can't remove them in absence of ally-healing (here a pull of Elrond, LoR or Galadriel, LoL can change the course), so Legolas is the only real healing card.
Possessions: 2x Naith Longbow instead of more Elven Swords, makes a really good synergy with Thonnas and Pengedhel, and those elves discourage the wide use of pulled Elven Bows (permanent fellowship archery can be too powerful in a Sealed, we ditched that theme for a reason) turning them instead into tank skirimishers. Plus, the Three Hunters deck has 2x Elven Sword, thus adding more copies of it is redundant (therefore almost useless) from a coupling perspective...
Dwarven items are 1x of each for Gimli only. There's an Elven Brooch, this is likely only a whim, but might be very useful with Gimli: Hand Axe or Dwarven Bracers (or a lucky pull of Gimli's Helm). Athelas too from the Three Hunters deck. And Hobbit Sword protection is another option...
Pumps: Khazad Ai-Menu is better here than Axe Strike as Merrick pointed out. Lend Us Your Aid is the main pump here. That's the main reason to keep those Endurance of Dwarves inside the draft (and a good one for Grimir). Maybe a little OP, as Thonnas or Pengedhel with a bow and one LUYA would be a 12 strength elf... likely will be reduced to 1.
2x Feathered can be awesome if these elves are coupled with Rohan (Mounted Elves). 2x Valor is just the standard.
That's all. A merged deck of Naith Elves with Shoulder to Shoulder, with coupling potential. Please comment, folks! If you burn it, at least it will glow nicely! :up:
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I don't think that Elven Brooch works the way you think it does for precisely the reason that you wanted to put it in there...
ELVEN BROOCH
4 U 63
Clarification:
To play, spot an Elf. Bearer must be a companion.
Response: If another possession borne by bearer is about to be discarded by a Shadow card, discard this possession instead
I like this version of the deck. It does give more different companions and has decent coupling potential with all of the decks from series 1 and opens up the use of more cards that could be pulled from the boosters.
I would make the following changes - some that you recommended.
'Lend Us Your Shoulders!' draft:
1x Fror, Gimli's Kinsman
1x Gimli, Unbidden Guest (starting)
2x Haldir, Emissary of the Galadhrim
1x Legolas, Archer of Mirkwood (starting)
1x Pengedhel, Naith Warrior
1x Thonnas, Naith Captain
1x Grimir, Dwarven Elder
1x Thrarin, Dwarven Smith
1x Dinedal, Silent Scout (+1)
1x Golradir, Councilor of Imladris
1x Saelbeth, Elven Councilor
1x Dwarven Axe
1x Dwarven Bracers
1x Hand Axe
1x Elven Brooch (-1)
1x Elven Sword
2x Naith Longbow
2x Khazad Ai-menu
1x Lend Us Your Aid (-1)
2x Feathered
2x Valor
2x Endurance of Dwarves
2x Shoulder to Shoulder
I like the fact that this forces you to choose between the two Thrarins if you go with the Gandwarf deck. Adding the extra ally gives a little versatility in what you can do with the vitality while giving more vitality for shuffling wounds around. I also dropped elven brooch as it doesn't do what you were wanting it to.
2x Lend Us Your Aid is too powerful, I might drop it to 0 as we are not dealing with overly strong minions here like in King block (no Siege Troop, Great Hill Troll etc.) This leaves room for 2 more cards. What would you think of adding 2x support of the last homely house? It means you would have to use the elves' vitality wisely but could make for an interesting draft card.
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Yeah, this looks pretty cool. I initially dropped Lend us Your Aid from my deck list since it seemed really overpowered, but it's definitely worth testing :)
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Haha, nice clarification! Oh well, too good to be true...
Dinendal, Silent Scout is a great addition, he/she can stay. "It" removes twilight for swifter double moves, and expands the wound token circus. So that leaves 2 free slots.
If we include this deck in Serie 2 instead of UB Rangers, it would be extremely powerful with that huge Gimli boosting everyone in need... And Lend Us Your Aid isn't really necessary as most decks won't have huge minions (Nazgul are to sole exception I can think of), so we can ditch all copies of LUYA and maybe let only 1x Endurance of Dwarves... AND that way include this Naith Elven Army in Serie 2, instead of UB Rangers...
Just look at this scenario: Serie 2, choose to aid Faramir's Rangers in their errand into Ithilien Forest, help Knights of Osgiliath to recover and defend their long lost ruined capitol, or join an Elven Army and stand firm at Helm's Gate... EPIC.
4 free slots...
I think this deck has very good coupling potential with Three Hunters and Rohan, but has little to offer to a pure Dwarven deck theme (however, with Gandwarves might couple into an amazing Elf/Dwarf deck). So in my opinion, those slots should be used to strengthen Dwarves...
2x Stout and Strong agrees with the spirit of this deck. And 2x Still Draws Breath as they will need more wound removing than only Legolas, in order to keep the wound moving machine working...
Those seem great additions to a pure Dwarven (or Gandwarves) deck. None of them is overpowered...
Lend Us Your Shoulders! without LUYA... we need to change that name.
1x Fror, Gimli's Kinsman
1x Gimli, Unbidden Guest (starting)
2x Haldir, Emissary of the Galadhrim
1x Legolas, Archer of Mirkwood (starting)
1x Pengedhel, Naith Warrior
1x Thonnas, Naith Captain
1x Grimir, Dwarven Elder
1x Thrarin, Dwarven Smith
1x Dinendal, Silent Scout
1x Golradir, Councilor of Imladris
1x Saelbeth, Elven Councilor
1x Dwarven Axe
1x Dwarven Bracers
1x Hand Axe
1x Elven Sword
2x Naith Longbow
2x Khazad Ai-menu
2x Still Draws Breath (+2)
2x Feathered
2x Valor
2x Stout and Strong (+2)
2x Shoulder to Shoulder
-2x Lend Us Your Aid
-2x Endurance of Dwarves
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I'm fine with Rohan taking 2 separate series to get built up to the deck that you show there. That is one reason why they are in series 1 and series 3...
Again, I don't want there to be a Gandalf toolbox deck. I want people to have to chose to take Gandalf because they have awesome cards for him rather than because there are awesome Gandalf cards in the deck.... Gandalf + tools makes a no brainer situation because he is ultimately splashable in ANY deck that you want to put him in. He is a 4/7/4 companion that can skirmish and has capabilities that when used correctly really give an edge to your deck.
Again - I don't want to give people those capabilities. I'd like to see people design their deck around the cards they get and if it makes sense to pick up Gandalf in a starter because you got some awesome support for him, great!
If you design an Ent Deck, you would realistically have to put it in series 3 because that is where most of the support comes up. By that point people would have a pretty wide range of cards and strategies. I don't want someone to pick up a Gandalf deck just because it gives them Gandalf + toolbox. Realistically, you can drop gandalf to a 6-7 card toolbox that will hose most people.
2x gandalf
1-2x Trust Me as You Once Did
1x Barliman Butterbur PP
1x Have Patience
1x Sleep Caradhras OR GST
We are darn close to that in the current Gandwarf deck, which is why I'm on the fence about recommending that we cut Barliman. That way if you want Trust Me as You Once Did, you have to go Gandwarf/Rohan series 3.
Hmmm... :-k :-k
Let's start from the Gandalf pack we have in the Rohan & Gandalf deck. That is: 2x Gandalf, 2x TMAYOD, 2x Have Patience and a Wizard Staff... Let's not depart too much from that Gandalf Kit while making a non-OP Ents deck...
Actually that Gandy Kit is almost the same as the one you describe above, except for Sleep Caradhras/Grown Suddenly Tall... Condition sweeping is a thorny issue, so let's pull that off. 2x Have Patience is abusive in any deck (much more in a self-healing Rohan one), so let's trim it to 1x (not zero as Ents will need one healing card at least). Roll of Thunder is another big tool, and Barliman bringing back things... let's remove that too.
So we have the next cards as a base for Gandhi & the Tree Shepherds:
Frodo, Mr. Underhill or Tired Traveller
2x Gandalf, The White Wizard
1x Merry; Horticulturalist (the third Gandalf signet)
1x Pippin, Woolly-Footed Rascal or Mr. Took
1x Wizard Staff
0x Hobbit Sword (as 4x are provided in Series 1 and 2)
1x Have Patience
2x Trust Me As You Once Did
8 cards... that leaves 22 card slots for Ents and Gandalf/UB Hobbit tricks... If you think that's a lot, think it again.
1. Ents: Birchseed may be a good starting with Merry, or both hobbits with Quickbeam. 2 Ents, we need another two. Host of Fangorn is out. Hmmm... we may use Treebeard or Ent Moot, but not both. Treebeard :up:, as Ent Moot would boost other Ents from 8 to 10 strength which could be excessive, and they will need the Damage bonus mechanism; he can only exert an UB hobbit to be assigned, don't overlook his cost. And a sole Ent Avenger. Thus we have 4 Ents, half of them Unhasty.
As for the tricks, they have 2 pumps: Roused adds [1], exerts and requires to spot many Ents, while Boomed and Trumpeted adds less strength but some damage bonus, with a risk of Shotgun Enquea. Besides pumps, Ents only have Crack Into Rubble and Ent Moot, the first can cover the condition discarding in absence of those Wizard sweeping tricks (for a very high price). A really strong point of Crack Into Rubble is it cannot be exported with Gandalf to other cultures (unlike Deep in Thought or Sleep Caradhras), but with 2 or more Ents...
(10 cards)
2x Birchseed
1x Ent Avenger
1x Quickbeam, Bregalad
2x Treebeard, Guardian of the Forest
2x Boomed and Trumpeted
2x Crack Into Rubble
2. Unbound Hobbits: Unhasty Ents depend much more on hobbits than non-Unhasty ones, so there must be some strong skirimish support. Hobbit Intuition and Long Slow Wrath might give them good chances to win some fights. Stout and Sturdy as this deck can exhaust hobbits easily (and the opponent will increase those exertions, or harvest them with I'd Make You Squeak or Twilight Enquea). Kept Safe to prevent wounds or being killed. Good Work for some burden removal. There and Back Again is always a nice addition...
(9 cards)
2x Hobbit Intuition
2x Long Slow Wrath
2x Stout and Sturdy
1x Kept Safe
1x Good Work
1x There and Back Again
3. Gandalf: So after brainstorming the Ent and Hobbit part, we can finally fulfil the last part of the deck choosing good-old Wizard tricks for the remaining... 3 card slots!? Mysterious Wizard, Strength of Spirit and Wielder of the Flame are my selection... Please note that Wielder of the Flame neglects The White Wizard's text.
(3 cards)
1x Mysterious Wizard
1x Strength of Spirit
1x Wielder of the Flame
Well, that's all. Nothing to fear, only 4 Wizard tricks (Have Patience and those 3), besides a Staff and 2x TMAYOD...
This version is aimed towards Ents fighting/killing and hobbits surviving. 5 Hobbit pumps but only 3 usable by Frodo. And some Gandalf support, almost the same a Rohan & Gandalf deck would have...
Gandhi & the Tree Shepherds deck draft:
Ringbearer: Frodo, Mr. Underhill
(30 cards)
2x Birchseed
1x Ent Avenger
2x Gandalf, The White Wizard
1x Quickbeam, Bregalad (starting)
2x Treebeard, Guardian of the Forest
1x Merry; Horticulturalist (starting)
1x Pippin, Mr. Took (starting)
1x Wizard Staff
2x Boomed and Trumpeted
2x Crack Into Rubble
1x Have Patience
1x Mysterious Wizard
1x Strength of Spirit
1x Wielder of the Flame
2x Hobbit Intuition
2x Long Slow Wrath
2x Stout and Sturdy
2x Trust Me As You Once Did
1x Kept Safe
1x Good Work
1x There and Back Again
4 Ents but 2 Unhasty ones. 2 UB Hobbits and the Wizard. With TMAYOD and 3 spells for the Wizard.
The main difference between this draft and the previous ones is this one uses more deck slots for hobbit survival and ent tricks: 2x Stout and Sturdy, 2x Hobbit Intuition, 2x Long Slow Wrath, 2x Boomed and Trumpeted, 2x Crack Into Rubble... Thus, leaving little space to Gandalf's ancient sorcery. Nothing to worry about.
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Gandhi & the Tree Shepherds deck draft:
Ringbearer: Frodo, Mr. Underhill
(30 cards)
2x Birchseed
1x Ent Avenger
2x Gandalf, The White Wizard
1x Quickbeam, Bregalad (starting)
2x Treebeard, Guardian of the Forest
1x Merry; Horticulturalist (starting)
1x Pippin, Mr. Took (starting)
1x Wizard Staff
2x Boomed and Trumpeted
2x Crack Into Rubble
1x Have Patience
1x Mysterious Wizard
1x Strength of Spirit
1x Wielder of the Flame
2x Hobbit Intuition
2x Long Slow Wrath
2x Stout and Sturdy
2x Trust Me As You Once Did
1x Kept Safe
1x Good Work
1x There and Back Again
4 Ents but 2 Unhasty ones. 2 UB Hobbits and the Wizard. With TMAYOD and 3 spells for the Wizard.
The main difference between this draft and the previous ones is this one uses more deck slots for hobbit survival and ent tricks: 2x Stout and Sturdy, 2x Hobbit Intuition, 2x Long Slow Wrath, 2x Boomed and Trumpeted, 2x Crack Into Rubble... Thus, leaving little space to Gandalf's ancient sorcery. Nothing to worry about.
As fun as it appears...and honestly it really does look like a fun deck to play, it would be like a serie 3 TT sealed ent deck on crack. With TMAYOD the Ents would almost never lose skirmishes, and Treebeard would clear the board every turn with his ability for easy double moves. This is pretty much why TT Sealed is really lame after Serie 2.
Even if someone tried to use Southron Commanders, TMAYOD would nullify them as well.
What you would see happen:
They would drop:
Crack into Rubble
Mysterious Wizard
Strength of Spirit
Wielder of the Flame
Long Slow Wrath
Stout and Sturdy
Kept Safe
Good Work
For:
A stack of Severed His Bonds to pass the early sites easy while they get set up
Sam from Serie 2 to take the ring if Frodo gets into burden trouble
Extra Have Patience from Serie 1
Then its TT Sealed all over again...but really worse as Frodo can take on big Easterlings easily to deter their ability because of TMAYOD.
If someone is lucky enough to pull a stack of great Ents from the boosters that's fine, but I'd rather not repeat a mistake that Decipher already made :/
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Just some thoughts: I think the game will be significantly different in Series 2/3 than Towers Sealed. Many of the wins right now in Towers Sealed come from overwhelming Frodo with 2-3 6-strength minions. The only direct Frodo protection in Towers block comes in the form of:
Severed His Bonds
Hobbit Sword
Sam (Only if you get lucky in a booster)
We are adding a significant amount of Frodo protection in the form of:
Hobbit Intuition
Bounder
Trust Me As You Once Did
This is going to be an environment where games go to 9 and are won or lost by whether or not you have been able to heal wounds or get stops along the way rather than if you can set up a killer swarm hand.
With that in mind, I'd like to generally see the shadows be a bit stronger than the fellowships. I think we struck a good balance with the archery and sauron tracker shadows. I think that Rohan is likely to be a bit strong vs. any skirmishing shadow because of their damage bonuses and exertions from horses, but we'll have to see.
I think we have a good mix of decks right now without having much overlap from either Towers Sealed or Fellowship Sealed. We need to finalize the decks that are in each series and start testing the inter-series interactions. This means no ents or other consolidation and we work with the decks that we have while adjusting the Fellowship/Shadow pairings appropriately. This is the only way we will know if we have achieved a good balance.
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Just some thoughts: I think the game will be significantly different in Series 2/3 than Towers Sealed. Many of the wins right now in Towers Sealed come from overwhelming Frodo with 2-3 6-strength minions. The only direct Frodo protection in Towers block comes in the form of:
Severed His Bonds
Hobbit Sword
Sam (Only if you get lucky in a booster)
We are adding a significant amount of Frodo protection in the form of:
Hobbit Intuition
Bounder
Trust Me As You Once Did
This is going to be an environment where games go to 9 and are won or lost by whether or not you have been able to heal wounds or get stops along the way rather than if you can set up a killer swarm hand.
With that in mind, I'd like to generally see the shadows be a bit stronger than the fellowships. I think we struck a good balance with the archery and sauron tracker shadows. I think that Rohan is likely to be a bit strong vs. any skirmishing shadow because of their damage bonuses and exertions from horses, but we'll have to see.
I think we have a good mix of decks right now without having much overlap from either Towers Sealed or Fellowship Sealed. We need to finalize the decks that are in each series and start testing the inter-series interactions. This means no ents or other consolidation and we work with the decks that we have while adjusting the Fellowship/Shadow pairings appropriately. This is the only way we will know if we have achieved a good balance.
I agree. I will be around, testing some of the Serie 2/3 decks, if anyone is available. Starting next week I think I'll be reading for combining cards from all three serie.
Like you said, I think our goal can be to locate and define any big insufficiency pertaining to any shadow, like we noticed with the lack of crowd control for the Archery deck.
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As fun as it appears...and honestly it really does look like a fun deck to play, it would be like a serie 3 TT sealed ent deck on crack. With TMAYOD the Ents would almost never lose skirmishes, and Treebeard would clear the board every turn with his ability for easy double moves. This is pretty much why TT Sealed is really lame after Serie 2.
Even if someone tried to use Southron Commanders, TMAYOD would nullify them as well.
What you would see happen:
They would drop:
Crack into Rubble
Mysterious Wizard
Strength of Spirit
Wielder of the Flame
Long Slow Wrath
Stout and Sturdy
Kept Safe
Good Work
For:
A stack of Severed His Bonds to pass the early sites easy while they get set up
Sam from Serie 2 to take the ring if Frodo gets into burden trouble
Extra Have Patience from Serie 1
Then its TT Sealed all over again...but really worse as Frodo can take on big Easterlings easily to deter their ability because of TMAYOD.
If someone is lucky enough to pull a stack of great Ents from the boosters that's fine, but I'd rather not repeat a mistake that Decipher already made :/
Southron Commander... #-o you are thinking inside the Towers Sealed box again. This is Revised Towers Standard: it has Shotgun Enquea and Easterling Pillager, maybe Nertea, MoDG or Greed from booster pulls. Shotgun Enquea can kill Gandalf or exerted UB Hobbits, and Ents sink easily after that.
Treebeard won't clear the board every turn... you are mistaking him for a 9 str, dmg+2 Rohirrim. Imagine the next scenario: 3 Uruks of 9 strength and 2 vitality each. Treebeard beats one (by exerting a hobbit), Gandalf can take other if spots [3], Quickbeam can fight the remaining if TMAYOD pumps him. Treebeard must exert twice in order to kill 2 Uruks, and the 3rd will pursue them if they attempt to double. At the end you got 4 exertions (2 on Treebeard, 1 on Merry of Pippin and the other on Gandy) if they happen to win, otherwise is even worse. While Rohirrim would need only pumps to clear the board (Hlafwine, Leod, TMAYOD or events)... and would heal easily every wound/exertion next turn (Weland, Guma, Well Stored).
Against Isen Orcs is even worse, as they have 3 vitality...
Clearily you haven't played that Treebeard enough to reach any serious conclusion. He gets exhausted quickly. He isn't a 10 strength dmg+2 Thrarin, SoE, nor a 10 strength dmg+3 Eomer (horse, javelin and Eomer's Spear)...
This deck just can't behave as the FP of Witch King's starter: Unhasty keyword is a heavy load that deck doesn't carry; there won't be Ent Moot to boost generic Ents to 10 strength. We just can't repeat that "mistake" by no possible means (and I really doubt they designed decks thinking about sealed gameplay)...
There's a Two Towers thread about the Ent Starter... they talk about non-Unhasty 10 str fellows winning without any drawback... Ent Moot is mentioned. Take a look and compare.
http://lotrtcgwiki.com/forums/index.php/topic,9047.0.html
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Southron Commander... #-o you are thinking inside the Towers Sealed box again. This is Revised Towers Standard: it has Shotgun Enquea and Easterling Pillager, maybe Nertea, MoDG or Greed from booster pulls. Shotgun Enquea can kill Gandalf or exerted UB Hobbits, and Ents sink easily after that.
Treebeard won't clear the board every turn... you are mistaking him for a 9 str, dmg+2 Rohirrim. Imagine the next scenario: 3 Uruks of 9 strength and 2 vitality each. Treebeard beats one (by exerting a hobbit), Gandalf can take other if spots [3], Quickbeam can fight the remaining if TMAYOD pumps him. Treebeard must exert twice in order to kill 2 Uruks, and the 3rd will pursue them if they attempt to double. At the end you got 4 exertions (2 on Treebeard, 1 on Merry of Pippin and the other on Gandy) if they happen to win, otherwise is even worse. While Rohirrim would need only pumps to clear the board (Hlafwine, Leod, TMAYOD or events)... and would heal easily every wound/exertion next turn (Weland, Guma, Well Stored).
Against Isen Orcs is even worse, as they have 3 vitality...
Clearily you haven't played that Treebeard enough to reach any serious conclusion. He gets exhausted quickly. He isn't a 10 strength dmg+2 Thrarin, SoE, nor a 10 strength dmg+3 Eomer (horse, javelin and Eomer's Spear)...
This deck just can't behave as the FP of Witch King's starter: Unhasty keyword is a heavy load that deck doesn't carry; there won't be Ent Moot to boost generic Ents to 10 strength. We just can't repeat that "mistake" by no possible means (and I really doubt they designed decks thinking about sealed gameplay)...
There's a Two Towers thread about the Ent Starter... they talk about non-Unhasty 10 str fellows winning without any drawback... Ent Moot is mentioned. Take a look and compare.
http://lotrtcgwiki.com/forums/index.php/topic,9047.0.html
I certainly agree that without Ent Moot it's not as devastating, but they can't be so readily compared to Rohirrim.
What is accomplished with 1 card for ents (the companion itself), you need combinations of cards for Rohan companions. Since we aren't using Elite Riders (would be too strong), the typical household guard compared to an ent needs a possession to reach the strength level, and then a mount to get any damage bonuses.
Ents are already big when they hit the table, and since they don't need possesions, this leaves tons of room for more pumps and utility cards, making them even more able to clear the board and double. Boomed and Trumpeted is devastating as well.
And since we're not giving complete open access to Enquea for everyone, it would depend on your deck choices and that randomness of booster pulls. Thus the southron deck with cards like southron commander and far-harad mercenaries, who are put there to pack some kind of punch are actually rendered useless.
I do agree that because of Unhasty, they are definitely a little more limited. I'm not entirely against testing out the deck, but Gandalf would have to be dropped, no question.
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I certainly agree that without Ent Moot it's not as devastating, but they can't be so readily compared to Rohirrim.
What is accomplished with 1 card for ents (the companion itself), you need combinations of cards for Rohan companions. Since we aren't using Elite Riders (would be too strong), the typical household guard compared to an ent needs a possession to reach the strength level, and then a mount to get any damage bonuses.
Ents are already big when they hit the table, and since they don't need possesions, this leaves tons of room for more pumps and utility cards, making them even more able to clear the board and double. Boomed and Trumpeted is devastating as well.
Rohirrim have their own Boomed and Trumpeted: Work for the Sword. And it's actually better as doesn't need 2 companion slots wasted with useless fighters. But we don't see it often because they don't need it, they already have damage bonus when mounted (+1, or +2 if bearing a Spear)...
Ents are strong but won't clear the board unless they either overwhelm or get damage bonuses. The first case just won't happen, and the latter happens only if you play a certain pump (Boomed, and those UB Hobbits really waste that companion space) or exert Treebeard, which will exhaust him soon. Rohirrim and Dwarves can sweep the table with their permanent damage bonus, which Ents just don't have. Ents neither have ally support, Leod and Hlafwine can pump and heal themselves just by sitting there (if you have Well Stored or Eomer, SSoT). Or heal a mounted Gandalf to abuse TMAYOD with Weland (and Guma healing Weland)...
I know Rohirrim must wait until possessions come, but in the meanwhile they have lots of events, allies and conditions (TMAYOD; We Left None Alive would be a killer common pull) to allow them to survive or even win skirimishes; Ents have only 2 pumps, and aren't really compatible as you risk too much by spotting 4 Ents AND 2 UB Hobbits. After that assembling period, only the Witch King can survive them often.
And since we're not giving complete open access to Enquea for everyone, it would depend on your deck choices and that randomness of booster pulls. Thus the southron deck with cards like southron commander and far-harad mercenaries, who are put there to pack some kind of punch are actually rendered useless.
I do agree that because of Unhasty, they are definitely a little more limited. I'm not entirely against testing out the deck, but Gandalf would have to be dropped, no question.
Unhasty doesn't limit a little but a lot, just think about Uruk Trackers (or any shadow that skirimishes twice). Those exertions will turn I'd Make You Squeak and Under the Watching Eye into killer cards; any grind shadow as Sauron, Uruk/Goblin Archery or Southrons will feast with Unhasty keyword, Treebeard's ability and TMAYOD. Ents just can't heal, only Gandalf can help with that but much less than what Weland and Guma would do.
I've been saying it indirectly but will be clear now: Rohan is by itself the strongest Free Peoples here, far over Dwarves, Elves or Gondor, or even Ents. And giving TMAYOD to them would be even more powerful than giving it to any other culture due to their healing abuse (Weland, Guma and Well Stored to remove 2 wounds per turn from Gandalf). And they have their own allies for the same purpose: Leod and Hlafwine.
I'm not saying we shouldn't include the Gandalf+TMAYOD pack in this sealed, but we should include non-OP Ents instead of a redundant Rohan fellowship along with Gandy.
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I've been saying it indirectly but will be clear now: Rohan is by itself the strongest Free Peoples here, far over Dwarves, Elves or Gondor, or even Ents.
Exactly. This has been one of our intentions from the start. It was noted that in the past that Rohan has never had a chance to really shine in sealed. In every sealed event they maybe get a little bit of a debut in serie 1 or 2...but even with great booster pulls they still fall short of other stronger FP decks. What we are doing here is giving them a chance.
I would not go so far as to say that they are much stronger than Gondor or Ents (if they were used). Knights have proven to be crazy strong and Ringbound men don't have to really worry about corruption. The Rohan FP is very strong in skirmishing and moving. We want it to be that way. But if you go full on Rohan, you will struggle with burden control. It's not an overpowered war tank, and we've seen it win just as much as lose in testing so far :)
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In my opinion, Rohan is by far the strongest FP in WotR sealed. Especially when supported by Gandalf, they wreck all the shadows, most noticeably Stragglers. And don't try to say that Aragorn is better than Eomer in RotK. Oh, and most people go Rohan serie 2 in Revised Movie Sealed to get Nazgul, as well. I'd say it's the most overplayed FP. Even Eowyn's deck is certainly playable for TTT. It's only not present for FotR, and then for the obvious reason of no cards at all!
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In my opinion, Rohan is by far the strongest FP in WotR sealed. Especially when supported by Gandalf, they wreck all the shadows, most noticeably Stragglers. And don't try to say that Aragorn is better than Eomer in RotK. Oh, and most people go Rohan serie 2 in Revised Movie Sealed to get Nazgul, as well. I'd say it's the most overplayed FP. Even Eowyn's deck is certainly playable for TTT. It's only not present for FotR, and then for the obvious reason of no cards at all!
No one can say that the Aragorn starter is better than the Eomer in RotK. But that's only because of the Sauron cards provided in the Eomer starter. Eomer starter shadow is superior, but the FP isn't so wonderful. Look at the pumps and other events you get...the card below the draw deck only helps the shadow player cycle. City of Men is leaps and bounds about that trash.
From what I've seen Rohan is not overplayed at all in sealed...but it might just be different experiences against different players.
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Rohan is superior thanks to the Elite Riders. As it stands, they are strength 10 with Steed and Spear, so they beat all of the minions in Aragorn's deck bar the Captain. That's why they're so good. Remove them and it's actually a fair (and very fun) game. Plus they get some nice new equipment with Merry. Wind in his Face isn't actually that bad a pump, too. It's really annoying to see your perfect hand get stuck to the bottom of your deck, especially if Pippin WoBaS was running rampant.
Anyway this is off topic, so I'll leave it now, but go Rohan!!
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Rohan is superior thanks to the Elite Riders. As it stands, they are strength 10 with Steed and Spear, so they beat all of the minions in Aragorn's deck bar the Captain. That's why they're so good. Remove them and it's actually a fair (and very fun) game. Plus they get some nice new equipment with Merry. Wind in his Face isn't actually that bad a pump, too. It's really annoying to see your perfect hand get stuck to the bottom of your deck, especially if Pippin WoBaS was running rampant.
Anyway this is off topic, so I'll leave it now, but go Rohan!!
Yeah those are some good points. I have probably underestimated them to a degree just based on my own experiences, which aren't as extensive as some here :)
The point you made about the elite rider is integral though. We did meaningfully leave them out of the starters we are making for that reason.
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It's been a little while since I've worked on this, and with stuff as busy as it's been for me these days, I need to back away from the current leagues a little to be able to finish testing by doing combo decks from serie 1 - 3. I'll catch you sometime this week if you got some extra time.
I'm going to start nibbling away at the other box artwork for the starters too...feel free to give me some feedback on those :)
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I have started a wiki entry here:
http://lotrtcgwiki.com/wiki/ts_sealed
The packs per series was the last discussed and generally agreed upon.
This has all the decks from series 1 uploaded and I'll work on adding the others when I have time. I did make one change to the Gandalf/Dwarf deck. I removed Barliman and put in Behold the White Rider in his place. Barliman was just too good IMO as we are already giving a decent Gandalf package. This will make him a great pull, rather than overpowered in the starter.
More testing needs to be done, but I think we are on pretty solid ground now.
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I have started a wiki entry here:
http://lotrtcgwiki.com/wiki/ts_sealed
... This has all the decks from series 1 uploaded and I'll work on adding the others when I have time. I did make one change to the Gandalf/Dwarf deck. I removed Barliman and put in Behold the White Rider in his place. Barliman was just too good IMO as we are already giving a decent Gandalf package. This will make him a great pull, rather than overpowered in the starter.
More testing needs to be done, but I think we are on pretty solid ground now.
The wiki entry looks so professional! I'm glad with the way the decks look and are designed to work, they seem like real starter decks (but a bit more clever ;)). Add Idleninja to the credits, as he worked on the Three Hunters / Uruk Trackers deck.
I agree in the point of Barliman's power and my vote goes towards his remotion. But I'm not convinced with Behold the White Rider, for 2 substantial reasons: The Grey Pilgrim with a Staff and 2 events just won't win many skirmishes (and 1 copy of BtWR won't come early most of the times), AND this deck is meant to blow conditions with Sleep Caradhras; that condition may work wonders with the Valiant Rohan / Gandalf deck, as it counts with TMAYOD, Leod, An Honorable Charge and The White Wizard (and a Staff) to ensure victories. It just doesn't fit here, so what else can we include? Even Delving or a 2nd Flurry of Blows would be better than Behold...
- Intimidate or another Have Patience, as each of those 3 Shadow decks in its fashion is meant to grind.
- Mithrandir, Mithrandir! or Wielder of the Flame, to counter swarms.
- Fireworks or Hugin can be a softer version of Mr. Butterbur, as this deck might need to sweep conditions more than once. Fireworks can recycle SHB too... With Grimir there might be too many FP cards reincorporated at the end of the game, which can be a severe drawback. But The Grey Wizard can help with that.
- Task Was Not Done to facilitate double moves (Valiant Rohan has Ever the Hope of Men).
- Another pump (Mysterious Wizard, Under the Living Earth, Threw Down My Enemy).
The rest are either useless here (You Cannot Pass, Strength of Spirit, RalL, LiF) or overpowered (Sleep Caradhras, DiT, Roll of Thunder, TotT, Depart Silently). Intimidate, Fireworks and Wielder of the Flame are very interesting in my opinion, and the latter reminds me a big point about Defender Bonuses we haven't discussed: in Serie 1 there is only one card with defender bonus (the mighty Aragorn, Heir of Elendil), and Serie 2 has 3 (Proper Poet AND Elendil's Valor in RB Rangers, Elendil's Valor in Knights), thus Gondor has both the monopoly of defender bonus AND 2 obvious FP paths to accumulate it. Serie 3 has nothing (maybe Thrarin, DS) but then Gondor gets to it's higher point...
Wielder of the Flame isn't a secure Defender aid and can erase Gondor's monopoly for good. And it doesn't mix too well with Valiant Rohan + The White Wizard, as it would nullify Gandalf's +3 strength bonus most of the time (those 2 Gandalf decks aren't the stronger possible coupling, are very different themes). Wielder has my vote, Fireworks would be my 2nd choice.
And in respect of the RB Rangers deck, I'd replace Proper Poet with Nice Sensible Hobbit (and Smeagol, Poor Creature by removing another thing) or Elendil's Valor with a RB Ranger trick like New Errand. Taken the first suggestion, it would be finally worth of the name "Ringbound Companions"...
It's funny how long can be an argumentation about only 1 card slot :P. Thoughts?
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The rest are either useless here (You Cannot Pass, Strength of Spirit, Depart Silently, RalL, LiF) or overpowered (Sleep Caradhras, DiT, Roll of Thunder, TotT). Intimidate, Fireworks and Wielder of the Flame are very interesting in my opinion, and the latter reminds me a big point about Defender Bonuses we haven't discussed: in Serie 1 there is only one card with defender bonus (the mighty Aragorn, Heir of Elendil), and Serie 2 has 3 (Proper Poet AND Elendil's Valor in RB Rangers, Elendil's Valor in Knights), thus Gondor has both the monopoly of defender bonus AND 2 obvious FP paths to accumulate it. Serie 3 has nothing (maybe Thrarin, DS) but then Gondor gets to it's higher point...
I agree that Gondor has the only access to defender bonuses, but if you look at the RB Companions they have a really hard time skirmishing, so giving them ways to kill off companions to take on multiple minions is good, but at a cost.
Wielder of the Flame isn't a secure Defender aid and can erase Gondor's monopoly for good. And it doesn't mix too well with Valiant Rohan + The White Wizard, as it would nullify Gandalf's +3 strength bonus most of the time (those 2 Gandalf decks aren't the stronger possible coupling, are very different themes). Wielder has my vote, Fireworks would be my 2nd choice.
I like it. Pretty decent card and it could force some interesting choices on the part of shadows.
And in respect of the RB Rangers deck, I'd replace Proper Poet with Nice Sensible Hobbit (and Smeagol, Poor Creature by removing another thing) or Elendil's Valor with a RB Ranger trick like New Errand. Taken the first suggestion, it would be finally worth of the name "Ringbound Companions"...
Given the play testing that we have done with this and the fact that you will have to choose between Sam and Gandalf in Series 2, I'm more in favor of keeping the ranger deck as is. If you want to create a RB companions deck in Series 3 you can certainly do that as the Hobbit deck has both of those companions.
With that in mind, I'd like to make the change to Wielder of the Flame. It is an interesting card that doesn't get much play and could be pretty decent in sealed.
Did you have thoughts on the other suggestions that I made about Gimli and the other cards to drop/add in the series 2/3 decks?
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I commented to the changes in the other thread. I think we're definitely "circling the drain", so to speak, with the decks. I don't think any more major overhauls are necessary, and we can have those lists soon for me to script :)
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Did you have thoughts on the other suggestions that I made about Gimli and the other cards to drop/add in the series 2/3 decks?
I have some thoughts, and posted them on the other thread. And since some days ago I started to like the idea of having 2 Rohan decks... Gondor has 4 (considering 3 Hunters), Dwarves have 2, Gandalf has 2, Elves 2...
I know this is off topic, and won't say it again to not delay the main issues, but Idleninja should have a mention in the credits (the wiki entry), as he helped with the Three Hunters / Uruk Trackers deck in both sides. Just saying...
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Idleninja is mentioned in the wiki entry now.
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Idleninja is mentioned in the wiki entry now.
:up:
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Serie 1 Decks are coded, and Deck Artwork finished.
Sorry about the face-got-run-over-by-a-dump-tuck Gamling...by the time I got to skewing the edges I was in too deep to adjust the whole image proportions, lol.
Just click on the image to make it larger
Anyway, 3 down, 6 to go :)
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Had to downsize the decks and post each individually. Limit is 512KB per :S
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Three Hunters
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The decks seem well-balanced and the deck design looks great. Good work guys! Thanks for the contribution
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Great work Dmaz!
The Three Hunters deck image looks so appealing! If I were an Uruk it would frighten me to buy or open a deck box like that, haha!
The picture you chose for the Rohan Allies deck is a great one! Even considering it has no Rohan allies at all ;).
The one for Gandwarves is good for what we got. Gimli looks too distant but we haven't got too many options... There are only 3 moments in the LOTR movies when there is more than 1 dwarf on the screen: the Seven Dwarf-lords at the prologue, the arrival of the Dwarven envoys to the Council, and during the Council of Elrond itself. In the Hobbit movies there's a lot more (and Gandalf is included amongst them), but that idea doesn't fit the case...
I found this pic of the dwarves at the Council: http://www.fantasyplanet.cz/gfx/pictures_clanky/lotr_gal_velky_2001_12_7_14_52_12.jpg
I doubt it will help, but maybe you will find an use for it.
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Here's another one with Gandalf and Gimli. They are close to each other. But in a sad situation...
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Great work Dmaz!
The Three Hunters deck image looks so appealing! If I were an Uruk it would frighten me to buy or open a deck box like that, haha!
The picture you chose for the Rohan Allies deck is a great one! Even considering it has no Rohan allies at all ;).
The one for Gandwarves is good for what we got. Gimli looks too distant but we haven't got too many options... There are only 3 moments in the LOTR movies when there is more than 1 dwarf on the screen: the Seven Dwarf-lords at the prologue, the arrival of the Dwarven envoys to the Council, and during the Council of Elrond itself. In the Hobbit movies there's a lot more (and Gandalf is included amongst them), but that idea doesn't fit the case...
I found this pic of the dwarves at the Council: http://www.fantasyplanet.cz/gfx/pictures_clanky/lotr_gal_velky_2001_12_7_14_52_12.jpg
I doubt it will help, but maybe you will find an use for it.
Thanks DH!
I will definitely try to use this image in the future, when I do the artwork for the Movie Sealed starters :) It'd be cool to see those guys' faces on starters
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Gotta love the weekends. Had time to crank out the remaining series 2 decks (the Gandalf/Rohan one I had done previously)
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Knights and Rohan/Gandy
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Nice work! Really like those starter decks!
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Yey! Good job, mate! :D
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Had to downsize the decks and post each individually. Limit is 512KB per :S
I always wondered who that guy on Théoden's left was supposed to be.
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I really love the feeling of the second serie! Three distant fronts of the War of the Ring to choose: the Knights at Osgiliath, the Rangers at Ithilien Forest and the Rohirrim defending Hornburg.
And your starter deck images contribute to that feeling. :up:
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Well done! I like the balance of the deck lists as well--honestly can't figure out which I'd choose in Serie 1.
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Well done! I like the balance of the deck lists as well--honestly can't figure out which I'd choose in Serie 1.
Thanks! That's a huge compliment to all of us on the development team. The aim was to have such a balance that your booster pulls should have a big weight in your decision, leading to diversity in deck choices :)
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Artwork done for Serie 3 decks. Just need to code now :)
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Shoulder to Shoulder and Hobbits/Smeagol
I tried several things with the Hobbits Smeagol artwork to get Sam in there as well, but all of the images were too wide with all of them in a row, and to photoshop sam in between them made him look a little weird like a growth on smeagol's back.
I really liked the look of smeagol in this shot.