Deceit and Blood Runs Chill

[dalkilthur]

Hi again,

Another doubt I have:

If my opponent plays Blood Runs Chill and I only have shadow conditions to discard, can I prevent them from being discarded with Deceit (18R029)?

Thank you very much!!!

[legolas3333]

what is the source of the discard? it is a free peoples card so you may use deciet.

[Thranduil]

Well the conflict here is that you always have to perform as much of the effect as you can. I don't see any reason why this would stop you keeping your conditions with Deceit if you have only Shadow conditions in play.

What I'm not so sure about is whether if you have other cards in play you have to choose them instead. I would guess that you don't given you have to declare the response after you've chosen what Shadow cards to discard, but as I said I don't know.

Thranduil

[ket_the_jet]

This is in the CRD regarding Siege Engine and Blood Runs Chill (or a similar card which makes the Shadow player choose).

If the Shadow player is given the choice, Deceit does not protect from it. Actually, I think the example was Desperate Defense of the Ring and Frodo, Courteous Halfling. Since the Free People's player is given the option to add burdens, Frodo does not prevent the discards.
-wtk

[dalkilthur]

But BRC doesn't give you a choice between two options, just says that the Shadow player chooses X cards in play to discard, but the source of that destruction continues to be the FP card, so I think Deceit can protect the conditions...don't you think so? As Thranduil says, it would be more problematic if there were other shadow cards in play...maybe then you'd have to choose the other cards to be discarded...

[Elessar's Socks]

I think Deceit would work regardless of whether you have only Shadow conditions in play or other card types as well. Deceit is just checking for the source of the discard (a Free People's player card), and not for the player (e.g. Siege Engine) or whether that source is making you to discard or not (compare Melilot Brandybuck to Old Noakes).

Also since the Shadow conditions can be discarded, I think that makes them fair game when performing as much as you can.

[Thranduil]

I think Deceit would work regardless of whether you have only Shadow conditions in play or other card types as well. Deceit is just checking for the source of the discard (a Free People's player card), and not for the player (e.g. Siege Engine) or whether that source is making you to discard or not (compare Melilot Brandybuck to Old Noakes).

I'm not sure the player vs. card argument holds water. Doesn't Siege Engine mean by "an opponent" "an opponent's card"? I'm sure it does, otherwise there is no in-game meaning to it.

Also since the Shadow conditions can be discarded, I think that makes them fair game when performing as much as you can.

This is interesting. So you think if you had something like "Shadow conditions can't be discarded" then you would be unable to choose Shadow conditions to fulfil BRC's effect?

[Elessar's Socks]

Heh, can't say I'm sure either. The Siege Engine entry goes:

Siege Engine can't prevent a Shadow player from discarding cards.
Siege Engine can't prevent the effect of Blood Runs Chill. Even though Blood Runs Chill is a Free Peoples card, it makes a Shadow player discard.

So as I read it, Siege Engine is making a distinction between an opponent (the player who makes the decision) and an opponent's card (BRC).

Also since the Shadow conditions can be discarded, I think that makes them fair game when performing as much as you can.

This is interesting. So you think if you had something like "Shadow conditions can't be discarded" then you would be unable to choose Shadow conditions to fulfil BRC's effect?

It's hypothetical, but I think it fits with precedent. If you are unable to do something--for example, exert an exhausted companion--then if an effect makes you exert a companion, you have to choose someone who is not exhausted.

[Thranduil]

Heh, can't say I'm sure either. The Siege Engine entry goes:

Siege Engine can't prevent a Shadow player from discarding cards.
Siege Engine can't prevent the effect of Blood Runs Chill. Even though Blood Runs Chill is a Free Peoples card, it makes a Shadow player discard.

So as I read it, Siege Engine is making a distinction between an opponent (the player who makes the decision) and an opponent's card (BRC).

Fair enough. I just think that it is somewhat at edge with the principle that the source of an effect is the card its printed on.