TLHH DC Project: The Great Eye - Design Skeleton

[Thranduil]

THE GREAT EYE DESIGN SKELETON

Card ID	Notes #1			Notes #2			Notes #3
*RC01	RR
*RR01	Twilight ring
DWC01	Gimli			Recursion?
DWC02	Companion			fellowship draw
DWC03	Companion
DWC04	Possession			weapon			culture tokens
DWC05	Condition			tale			resistance
DWC06	Event			search/tale			pump
DWU01	Companion
DWU02	Companion
DWU03	Condition			tale
DWU04	Event			search			card draw
DWU05	Event			maneuver			wounding
DWR01	Companion			Gimli			Friend to Legolas, alliance, culture tokens
DWR02	Companion
DWR03	Possession			armour			resistance
DWR04	Condition
ELC01	Companion			Legolas			archery
ELC02	Companion
ELC03	Companion
ELC04	Possession			bow			resistance?
ELC05	Condition			tale			resistance
ELC06	Event			spell/stealth			pump
ELU01	Companion
ELU02	Companion
ELU03	Condition
ELU04	Event			stealth			reveal
ELU05	Event			spell			healing
ELR01	Companion			Legolas
ELR02	Companion
ELR03	Artifact			Mirror of Galadriel
ELR04	Condition
ELR05	Event			archery
GAC01	Companion			Gandalf
GAC02	Companion
GAC03	Companion
GAC04	Condition			tale			resistance
GAC05	Event			spell			pump
GAC06	Event			search			condition discard
GAU01	Companion
GAU02	Companion
GAU03	Condition			pipeweed
GAU04	Event			Like QtNA / RaLL
GAU05	Event
GAR01	Companion			Gandalf
GAR02	Companion
GAR03	Artifact			Palantír? Staff? Narya?
GAR04	Condition
GAR05	Event
GFC01	Companion			Sméagol			stealth/Ring
GAC02	Condition						resistance
GFC03	Event			stealth			pump
GFC04	Event			stealth			sites/move limit
GFU01	Condition			twilight			Ring
GFU02	Condition
GFU03	Event
GFU04	Event
GFR01	Companion			Sméagol			stealth/Ring
GFR02	Condition						wounding
GFR03	Event			twilight			Ring
GSC01	Minion			Gollum			search/Ring
GSC02	Minion			condition			resistance
GSC03	Event			search			move limit
GSC04	Event			search			pump
GSU01	Condition			twilight			Ring
GSU02	Condition
GSU03	Event
GFU04	Event
GSR01	Minion			Gollum			search/Ring
GSR02	Condition
GSR03	Event
GSR04	Event
GOC01	Companion			Aragorn
GOC02	Companion			Faramir
GOC03	Companion
GOC04	Possession			weapon
GOC05	Possession			armour
GOC06	Condition			tale/fortification			resistance
GOC06	Event			stealth			pump
GOU01	Companion			Denethor
GOU02	Companion			Boromir
GOU03	Companion
GOU04	Possession			cloak			stealth
GOU05	Condition			fotification
GOU06	Companion			Condition
GOU07	Event			Like Pathfinder
GOR01	Companion			Aragorn
GOR02	Companion
GOC03	Artifact			Seeing Stone of MA
GOR04	Artifact			Andúril
GOR05	Condition						culture tokens
GOR06	Event
GOS01	Companion			Faramir			Starter
ISC01	Minion			Uruk			army
ISC02	Minion			Orc
ISC03	Minion			Man
ISC04	Minion			Saruman
ISC05	Condition			engine/weather			resistance
ISC06	Event			spell			pump
ISU01	Minion			Uruk
ISU02	Minion			Orc			army - Warg-riders?
ISU03	Minion			Gríma
ISU04	Event			spell/weather			condition discard
ISR01	Minion			Saruman
ISR02	Minion			Uruk/Orc			general, search
ISR03	Artifact			Palantír of Orthanc
ISR04	Event			weather
MEC01	Minion			Dunland
MEC02	Minion			Corsair
MEC03	Minion			Southron
MEC04	Minion			Easterling			army
MEC05	Possession			weapon
MEC05	Condition			engine			resistance
MEC07	Event			search			pump
MEU01	Minion			Dunland			army
MEU02	Minion			Bree
MEU03	Minion			Southron
MEU04	Minion			Easterling
MEU05	Possession			ship?
MEU01	Event
MER01	Minion			Corsair			army
MER02	Minion			Southron
MER03	Minion			Easterling
MER04	Condition
MER06	Event
ORC01	Minion			Moria			army
ORC02	Minion			Moria
ORC03	Minion			Isengard
ORC04	Minion			Mordor
ORC05	Possession			weapon
ORC06	Condition			search			resistance
ORC07	Event			search			resistance
ORU01	Minion			Moria
ORU02	Minion			Isengard			army
ORU03	Minion			Mordor
ORU04	Minion			Mordor
ORU04	Condition			engine
ORU06	Condition
ORU07	Event			Like Hate?
ORR01	Minion			Moria			Balrog? Troll?
ORR02	Minion			Mordor			army
ORR03	Minion			Mordor			general
ORR04	Possession			support area			culture tokens
ORR05	Condition			Like Goblin Armories?
ORR06	Event
ROC01	Companion			Éomer
ROC02	Companion
ROC03	Companion
ROC04	Possession			weapon
ROC05	Possession			horse
ROC06	Condition			fortification			resistance
ROC07	Event						pump
ROU01	Companion			Gamling?
ROU02	Companion
ROU03	Companion
ROU04	Possession			javelin/helm
ROU05	Condition
ROU06	Event						possession discard
ROR01	Companion			Théoden
ROR02	Companion
ROR03	Possession			Herugrim? Firefoot?
ROR04	Condition						culture tokens
ROR05	Event						move limit
ROR06	Event			search			fetching
ROS01	Companion			Éomer			Starter
SAC01	Minion			Orc
SAC02	Minion			Orc
SAC01	Minion			Uruk
SAC04	Minion			Troll/Orc			army
SAC05	Condition			engine			resistance
SAC06	Event			spell			pump
SAU01	Minion			Orc
SAU02	Minion			Troll
SAU03	Minion			Man			search/Ring
SAU04	Condition
SAC05	Event
SAR01	Minion			Man/Troll			Ring?
SAR02	Minion			Sauron, The Great Eye			Ring
SAR03	Condition						culture tokens
SAR04	Event
SHC01	Companion			Frodo
SHC01	Companion			Sam
SHC03	Companion
SHC04	Possession			Like Hobbit Sword
SHC05	Condition			tale			resistance
SHC06	Event			stealth			pump
SHU01	Companion			Merry
SHU02	Companion			Pippin
SHU03	Condition
SHU04	Event			stealth			reveal
SHU05	Event			twilight			Ring
SHR01	Companion			Frodo
SHR02	Companion			Sam
SHR03	Condition						culture tokens
SHR04	Event
UHC01	Minion			tracker
UHC02	Minion			tracker			army
UHC03	Minion			besieger
UHC04	Possession			weapon
UHC05	Condition			search			resistance
UHC05	Event			search			pump
UHU01	Minion			besieger			army
UHU02	Minion			besieger
UHU03	Minion			tracker
UHU04	Condition
UHU05	Event
UHR01	Minion			tracker
UHR02	Minion			besieger
UHR03	Possession
UHR04	Condition						culture tokens
UHR05	Event						mass discard
WAC01	Minion			Witch-King
WAC02	Minion			Lemenya
WAC03	Minion			Nelya
WAC04	Minion			Nertëa
WAC05	Condition
WAC06	Condition			spell			resistance, MEGA BREATH!
WAC07	Event			search
WAU01	Minion			Otsëa			twilight love
WAU02	Minion			Cantëa
WAU03	Minion			Enquëa			Enquea, Ringwraith in Twilight?
WAU04	Minion			Toldëa			assignment
WAU05	Condition						search/His Terrible Servants?
WAU06	Event			twilight			Ring
WAU07	Event			search
WAR01	Minion			Witch-King, Lord of the Twilight			Return to Its Master on a stick
WAR02	Minion			Attëa
WAR03	Possession			Like Fell Beast			or should this be the army slot (Dol Guldur?)
WAR04	Artifact			Ithil Stone
WAR05	Condition			weather?			culture tokens
WAR06	Event
XSC01
XSC02
XSC03
XSC04
XSU01
XSU02
XSU03
XSU04
XSU05
XSR01
XSS01
XSS02
XSS03
XSS04
XSS05
XSS06
XSS07
XSS08

[Thranduil]

Some points to make on the design skeleton:

CODE
You may have noticed the code is 2 letters, followed by a letter, followed by 2 digits. This works like:

2 letters        letter           2 digits
Culture          rarity          no. of card in that culture at that rarity

I'm using *R for so that it always appears at the top, and similarly XS for sites to be at the end.

The other abbreviations are as follows:

DW -
EL -
GA -
GF - [gollum] FP
GS - [gollum] SH
GO -
IS -
ME -
OR -
RO -
SA -
SH -
UH -
WA -


and for the 1 letter:

C - common
U - uncommon
R - rare
S - starter


SUMMARY OF SET
• There are 250 cards. 10S, 90C, 80U, 70R.

• The percentage of characters is ~ 50%, slightly under for FP and slightly over for SH (notable exception being the culture for obvious reasons).

• I have left off allies/followers. I kind of decided we didn't need to go into that murky depth here.

• I have not included any dual culture cards as a separate entry. For the moment, we've been talking about not changing the template, and so they will be in their template entries.




HOW TO USE THIS SKELETON
Step 1 - Filling in the Skeleton
The first job is to fill out as much of the skeleton as possible with vague ideas on what the card in that slot is going to look like. In general, what I've done is:

• notes #1: type (or Shadow number for sites)
• notes #2: sub-type/keyword/title
• notes #3: content

so keeping roughly to that makes it very clear.

Of course, while we are filling out the skeleton, it is the job of all us designers to also do step 2.


Step 2 - Submitting the cards
We can all submit cards in this thread. When you submit a card, you should make sure to do the following:

1) identify its card ID.
2) post your idea
3) everyone reviews the idea (it's important to not retain too much of an ownership of card you design - this is a GROUP project after all, and so you have to be much more prepared to listen to other people than you might be in your own set (this is a lesson I have to learn most of all! )).
4) if it passes design, it gets submitted to the "file" at which point I will add its details to the skeleton so we can keep track of what's going on.


At first, card title and lore are not so important. Focus on overall concept and flavour.

Titles, lore and balance will be sorted out in a second wave of reviewing.





INFORMATION
In the other thread, I posted a list of each culture's strengths in a 3 tiered system. The design skeleton is to help us make sure that the strengths of a particular culture are emphasised enough.


We also need to bear in mind the sets themes. They are (succinctly):

1) search/stealth (and to an extent, trackers and rangers, besiegers and knights)

2) twilight

3) The One Ring

4) culture matters (culture love, culture hate)

5) alliances (multiculture strategies, including dual culture cards - I think we're using culture keywords, and possibly the alliance keyword which you can also check out & discuss in the other thread)

6) burdens & resistance



Any more information about how this is going to work I'll post when I think of it! It is quite late now...

Any questions, just post below or ask me by PM. When I'm more awake, I'll also post some card ideas!

[Cw0rk]

I think that there is too many companion cards. I do not think that we need to have 50% of characters for FP cards. If we really stick to 50%, there should be allies and/or followers.

There will be FP search cards? Did you get the idea from me or is it your original idea ?

I've also seen a Ringwraith weather card. Sounds fun.

[chompers]

No allies or followers?

Perhaps too many free people companions.

I had a look at dwarves breakdown:
15 cards - 7 companions (2 of which are Gimli), 3 cond, 3 event, 2 possessions).

FOTR breakdown whilst a bigger set was:
26 cards - 11 events, 4 companions, 4 possessions, 5 conditions and 2 allies.

I would drop a few companions and add ... perhaps ...
3 companions, 4 cond, 5 events, 3 possessions - no need for followers or allies or artifacts.

3 companions including:
* a new Gimli linked to Elves or Legolas
* a new non-unique dwarf

A new weapon for Gimli (perhaps linked to Elves or Legolas)

[chompers]

I like your changes to Gimli, particularly using the Alliance keyword. I worry about making cards too powerful. Is adding two tokens instead of one - every time you add a or token too powerful? This can add up - parfticularly in an Elven token deck.

Also can you explain recursion to me as listed in the design skeleton next to the common Gimli?

As for your Sauron - i worry that combat using resistance for the ringbearer and strength for a minion will lead to an easy auto win. Use Flames Within or Rank and File with Sauron to get him to strength 20 for auto Frodo overwhelm (provided he wears the One Ring). Even easier to overwhelm alternate ringbearers. Use Resistance Becomes Unbearable gets the Ringbearer to wear the One Ring. Perhaps this is a deck concept, but it seems pretty easy to full off. It definately fits the cross-culture theme with two or three cultures needed to get it to work.

[Thranduil]

I like your changes to Gimli, particularly using the Alliance keyword. I worry about making cards too powerful. Is adding two tokens instead of one - every time you add a or token too powerful? This can add up - parfticularly in an Elven token deck.

Yeah it could be good. Probably could come with another cost, like a resistance requirement?

Also can you explain recursion to me as listed in the design skeleton next to the common Gimli?

Yeah sorry. Recursion means getting stuff back from the discard pile like Defending the Keep

As for your Sauron - i worry that combat using resistance for the ringbearer and strength for a minion will lead to an easy auto win. Use Flames Within or Rank and File with Sauron to get him to strength 20 for auto Frodo overwhelm (provided he wears the One Ring). Even easier to overwhelm alternate ringbearers. Use Resistance Becomes Unbearable gets the Ringbearer to wear the One Ring. Perhaps this is a deck concept, but it seems pretty easy to full off. It definately fits the cross-culture theme with two or three cultures needed to get it to work.

Yeah indeed. The question we have to decide is whether the flavour is cool enough to try hard to make the card work in a balanced way, or whether we should do something else.

Thranduil

[legolas3333]

I would change the "seeker" subtitles on all your wraiths, cause it makes them sound like they're from harry potter or something

[simplegarak]

I would change the "seeker" subtitles on all your wraiths, cause it makes them sound like they're from harry potter or something

Well I meant it as a joke shout out to:
http://www.agonybooth.com/recaps/The_Seeker__The_Dark_is_Rising_2007.aspx

Think I should just call them "_th tracker"?  I almost did "_th hunter" until I remember previous sets.

Hmm... looking at:
http://thesaurus.com/browse/hunt

Oooo!  Inquisitor!  Then we can all say "Nobody expects the Nazgul inquisition!"

This also edits the response action to make it more comparable to A Dark Shape Sprang.

By the way, how about this for a Pathfinder-like event:
Hidden Paths
Event • Regroup
Stealth. Exert a ranger (or spot 3 rangers) to play the Fellowship's next site (except a dwelling or battleground site). If that site is a forest or river site, its shadow number is -2.
"'Strider will take them on paths seldom trodden.'"
COU07

This would also be useful in a joint - deck.

Maybe make it -1 just to keep choke decks from getting too horrible.

[Thranduil]

As I was trying to fit on All Veils Removed, I just remembered the argument I made to myself about reprints. If nothing is going to rotate, do we need to reprint cards?

Also updated the skeleton somewhat. Mainly I've fit in a Fell Beast for WAR03 instead of the Dol Guldur army. Maybe we could make a Dead Marshes army in instead?

I will deal with companion reduction another time.

[Not a Zombie]

one suggestion: put each culture in its own thread, otherwise we will never get the cards reviewed enough to finalize

[chompers]

I am struggling to keep up - either put each culture in its own thread or perhaps not make it all in on the whole set.

Perhaps we should talk or whatever first - discuss what we want to achieve as far as strengths, strategies, combos, culture links, culture sticks or whatever. Then throw out some card ideas. It is too much when we post 15 cards at once. And even harder when we hit three cultures (so far) at once.

Just my 2cents.

[simplegarak]

I like seeking the 1 you posted there Thrandril.

Hang on, making some topics.  Does everyone want to copy/paste their thoughts in the new threads?

[Thranduil]

If you want to make some new topics, let me transfer it all (Mod powers ftw!). I'll post some links here in a bit.

[Thranduil]

Okay, so right now we have:





[men]




And I think that's enough for now.

[chompers]

agree - we don't have to tackle everything so quickly - it is hard to keep up - but it is keeping my interest