TLHH DC Project: The Great Eye - Concepts & Discussion

[Sam, Great Elf Warrior]

Hmm...I prefer culture love over culture hate. Culture love you can build decks around; culture hate is only useful if the set is so unbalanced that a single culture dominates the meta, and tends to turn the game into a rock-scissors-paper guessing game.

Also, the second sentence is too powerful against Whirling Strike/ Red Wrath wounding decks. I really dislike single cards that kill decks (again, it creates the rock-scissors-paper phenomenon above).

I like the concept, though. Just remove the second sentence with another booster (or even another culture). Ideally, instead of just saying "while you can spot an something," add game text that boosts the joint strengths of the cultures. Basically, think about what sort of deck provides a good symbiosis between the two cultures, and figure out a way to make it better. For example:

•Ranger of Fornost
Companion • Man
Str: 6
Vit: 3
Res: 6
Ranger.
While you can spot a unique companion in your starting fellowship, this companion's twilight cost is -1.
Each time another or companion exerts during the manuever, archery, or skirmish phases, you may exert this companion to place no token for that exertion (limit once).
The survivors of Arnor long remembered their ancient friendship with the elves.
R

This sort of symbiosis-mindedness is especially important with shadow cards, where the impermanence of minions makes multi-cultural decks weaker.

[simplegarak]

Each time another or companion exerts during the manuever, archery, or skirmish phases, you may exert this companion to place no token for that exertion (limit once).
The survivors of Arnor long remembered their ancient friendship with the elves.
R

Wait, what does the "limit once" even mean?  Once per phase?  Once per companion?  Also, for consistency, his ability should be a Response: action.  I'd definitely take out the archery phase there (otherwise Greenleaf gets sick) and maybe maneuver. (otherwise think Fellowship Aragorn)

[simplegarak]

And obviously an extension of Sam's idea above is to have guys like:

Númenorean Descendant
Companion • Man
Str: 7
Vit: 3
Res: 6
While you can spot an companion, ~ is resistance +2.
While skirmishing a or minion, ~ cannot take wounds.

ie. culture love and culture hate, allowing you to have effects that you would not normally have in a particular culture.

Change to "cannot take more than 1 wound".  Flat out invincibility hoses two entire cultures, especially as a gondor player might stock 4 of them and, if he's facing those shadows, drop them all in his fellowship.  Then you're only hope of getting the ring-bearer is a swarm.

[simplegarak]

Another card game has had this issue and it was dealt with as follows:

If a card is two cultures at the same time .. say and then the card is both cultures at the same time. It burns us will spot 2 cultures which provides a negative to the obvious advantage of using a much larger card base to support this companion. There are other cards that make this a negative as well.

However, it has been mentioned before that companions that are two cultures simultaneously may lead to issues with culture bleed and may become OP. Perhaps the negatives will balance out some of the positives but allowing a companion to use cards from two cultures increases the chance of a broken combination of cards.

I prefer that cards switch cultures. I also prefer that you have to work to make a companion change cultures. For example - Aragorn is but if you want him to be you will have to work for it by deploying X Elves. He then switches (is no longer ) to . If you lose too many Elves he reverts back to . This attaches a risk to uses an Aragorn because if you start to lose, he will lose the cards that support him. A good deck designer could perhaps work out a way to change the number of Elves in play, so Aragorn reverts from to in the same time to take advantage of a larger pool of cards. You could take this concept further, rather than spotting a culture, you could spot a named companion:

* While you can spot three companions, this companion (Aragorn) becomes
* While you can spot Arwen, this companion (Aragorn) becomes

I have mentioned this idea a few times but it seems to have little support. Is this because it might be a little weak as a concept and perhaps not used very much? Or is it messy to keep track of? Or am i overlooking something more obvious?

Forgive my ramblings a moment...

The Rohan Aragorn was one moment I really, REALLY geeked out.  As soon as I saw him I wished they had done something similar with the alternate ring-bearers.  I mean, gimli being an RB makes no sense!  Why not just have a dwarf culture Bilbo? (referencing the Hobbit)

How about instead of worrying about changing cultures and all that, you just simplify it to "old cards in new clothes" sort of thing?  Try to put as many people into cultures they have never been in before.

As for shadow cultures, either slap two culture icons in the top right, or just fill in their text boxes.  i.e. "You may exert this minion to pay for cards."

[simplegarak]

1) fellowship draw, mountain, conditions, mill, pumps, recursion, damage, tales, *valiant*
2) underground, search, foresight, tokens, maneuver wounding, maneuver draw, possessions
3) healing, choke, archery, pipeweed, discarding Shadow cards, regroup wounding, artifacts

I'd say possession should actually be in 1 and "post fellowship" drawing should be in 3.  Well, the way the game is, not what I think it should be.

1) forest, sanctuary, events, direct wounding, adding threats for effects, shrinking minions, healing, stealth, tale, archery, foresight
2) river, artifacts, revealing, burden removal, liberating sites, spells, rangers, culture tokens, alliances, resistance, maneuver condition discard
3) conditions, discard from hand, moving, choke, twilight, The Ring, cancel skirmishes

You forgot that elves gained "post fellowship" drawing as a #2 from Kings onward.  Spells should also be ** as is cancel skirmishes.  I'd probably put rangers in #3.

1) battleground, events, adding burdens for effect, pumping, shrinking, sites, flood the pool, spells, alliances, condition discard, resistance
2) dwelling, mountain, followers, revealing, threats, healing, discarding minions, search, pipeweed, culture tokens, skirmish/maneuver wounding
3) underground, fetch, bounce, tales, foresight, burden removal, moving

i.e. Jack of all trades.  :hey:

1) marsh, events, skirmish wounding, burdens, threats, pumps, sites, moving, choke, search, stealth, *traitor*, Ring-bound, regroup actions, resistance, The Ring
2) revealing, fetch, recursion, healing, *ambush*, cancel skirmishes, cancel events/abilities
3) mountain, character discard, follower discard, twilight, possessions (for Shelob), Shadow/Free Peoples interaction

Not bad.

1) battleground, possessions, maneuver wounding, healing, sites, regroup choke, defender, ranger/knight, culture tokens, fortifications
2) conditions, threat removal, cancel skirmishes, liberating, moving, damage, *valiant*, alliances, pumps, stealth
3) sanctuary, artifacts, fetch, archery, tales, pipeweed, Ring-bound/unbound

Gondor canceling skirmishes?  Since when?  If I assume moving to be +1 move limit, then it should be under 3 and artifacts should be in #2.

1) battleground, events, condition discard, exerting, damage, search, spell, tracker, *besieger*, *traitor*, *engine*
2) conditions, revealing, mill, site control, bounce, archery, weather, foresight, The Ring, alliances, wound prevention
3) *dwelling*, discard, fierce, *pipeweed*, culture hate

Don't forget the regroup phase. (probably #2)

1) plains, events, skirmish wounding, threats, *fetch*, ambush, archery, *search*, raider keywords, *traitor*, culture tokens
2) battleground, possessions, pumps, site control, fierce, stealth, possession discard, mounts
3) *sanctuary*, damage, *engines*, resistance, *follower discard*, alliances

Evil men culture does seem a natural for anti-follower tech doesn't it?  maybe even "stealing" followers to represent their corrupting influence?

1) underground, conditions, adding burdens, shrinking companions, recursion, flood pool, stealth, *besieger*, *engine*, swarm, condition discard
2) battleground, possessions, skirmish wounding, mill, damage, tracker, search, resistance
3) adding threats, sites, moving, archery, mounts

Shadow side needs more mount love! 

1) plains, possessions, events, liberation, moving, valiant, villagers, culture tokens, possession discard
2) battleground, healing, bounce, defender, *knight*, fortification, alliances, fetching
3) followers, regroup draw, discard, sites, direct wounding

I can't help but salivate at the idea of an Eowyn knight...

1) *battleground*, conditions, discard from hand, direct wounding, burdens, mill, shrinking, site control, search, tracker, besieger, The Ring, *resistance*
2) *river*, events, shadow draw, fierce, *spells*, *traitor*, engine, swarm, condition discard
3) recursion, twilight, archery, revealing, assignment

I'd just like to say... I HATED the culture and always thought Sauron should have never been removed from the game.

1) dwelling, followers, removing burdens, cancel skirmishes, healing, stealth, pipeweed, *villagers*, Ring-bound, The Ring, resistance
2) forest, removing threats, fetch, choke, tales, *valiant*, culture tokens, alliances, events
3) recursion, sites, twilight, revealing, assignment

Not much was ever done with the "villager" keyword.  It would be interesting to see it on Hobbits.

1) battleground, conditions, wounds, site control, healing, damage, *search*, *trackers*, assignment, wound prevention
2) shadow draw, adding threats, mill, pumps, fierce, *besieger*, resistance
3) possessions, *engines*, culture tokens, follower discard

Eh, moving on.

1) forest, conditions, burdens, sites, fierce, search, stealth, twilight, The Ring, resistance, follower discard
2) *marsh*, threats, recursion, healing, spell, Ring-bound, assignment, possession discard
3) artifacts, Shadow draw, *weather*, foresight

Why "marsh"?  I know a Nazgul flew over one during TTT but... Dwelling seems more their style than any other (didn't some dwelling sites gives Nazgul their biggest boost?).

Hmm... I was thinking what if as a balancing mechanic, some cards got weaker at certain sites?  i.e. Some Nazgul is strength -2 at a river.  Hobbit exerts at a mountain.  etc etc  They had some of that in the past (mounts discarded at underground, or adding twilight when moving from something).

[Thranduil]

I'd say possession should actually be in 1 and "post fellowship" drawing should be in 3.  Well, the way the game is, not what I think it should be.

Well I put possessions after conditions, but you can make the argument to make possessions 1.

You forgot that elves gained "post fellowship" drawing as a #2 from Kings onward.  Spells should also be ** as is cancel skirmishes.  I'd probably put rangers in #3.

All fair. But skirmish cancelling actually is in the Elven culture as in Voice of Nimrodel.

Gondor canceling skirmishes?  Since when?  If I assume moving to be +1 move limit, then it should be under 3 and artifacts should be in #2.

There is a card from Towers but I can't remember what it was. Curse Them?

Why "marsh"?  I know a Nazgul flew over one during TTT but... Dwelling seems more their style than any other (didn't some dwelling sites gives Nazgul their biggest boost?).

I put marsh sites on for the Barrow-Wights.

I will make some changes to the reference in a bit.

Hmm... I was thinking what if as a balancing mechanic, some cards got weaker at certain sites?  i.e. Some Nazgul is strength -2 at a river.  Hobbit exerts at a mountain.  etc etc  They had some of that in the past (mounts discarded at underground, or adding twilight when moving from something).

Yeah definitely worth considering.

Change to "cannot take more than 1 wound".  Flat out invincibility hoses two entire cultures, especially as a gondor player might stock 4 of them and, if he's facing those shadows, drop them all in his fellowship.  Then you're only hope of getting the ring-bearer is a swarm.

Good call. We'll get on to card details later - right now we should be caring mainly about concepts.

Hmm...I prefer culture love over culture hate. Culture love you can build decks around; culture hate is only useful if the set is so unbalanced that a single culture dominates the meta, and tends to turn the game into a rock-scissors-paper guessing game.

Great stuff. You need some culture hate, especially in a culture matters set. What I would say is that most cards should have some utility anyway with some extra power against a particular culture.

Also, the second sentence is too powerful against Whirling Strike/ Red Wrath wounding decks. I really dislike single cards that kill decks (again, it creates the rock-scissors-paper phenomenon above).

Also, magic bullets are an important tool in card design. You should be careful about them, but in MTG there are always hosers that destroy decks (like removing graveyards from the game against dredge strategies).

I like the concept, though. Just remove the second sentence with another booster (or even another culture). Ideally, instead of just saying "while you can spot an something," add game text that boosts the joint strengths of the cultures. Basically, think about what sort of deck provides a good symbiosis between the two cultures, and figure out a way to make it better. For example:

•Ranger of Fornost
Companion • Man
Str: 6
Vit: 3
Res: 6
Ranger.
While you can spot a unique companion in your starting fellowship, this companion's twilight cost is -1.
Each time another or companion exerts during the manuever, archery, or skirmish phases, you may exert this companion to place no token for that exertion (limit once).
The survivors of Arnor long remembered their ancient friendship with the elves.
R

This sort of symbiosis-mindedness is especially important with shadow cards, where the impermanence of minions makes multi-cultural decks weaker.

Yeah, great thoughts! We should keep this stuff in mind.

[simplegarak]

All fair. But skirmish cancelling actually is in the Elven culture as in Voice of Nimrodel.

There is a card from Towers but I can't remember what it was. Curse Them?

See?  Told you I was rusty.

Hmmm... part of me thinks maybe the list should be divided into what cultures SHOULD have and things they were given which should be forgotten.  Like canceling in Gondor - nononononono.  I dunno, may be part of me is misreading it all there.  I'd say if we were going to make a new set we'd have to decide:
1) Will it or will it not rotate?
2) Are there any strategies we can beef up and explore more before we go throwing more new ones out there?

[Thranduil]

1) Will it or will it not rotate?

Nothing is going to rotate. One of the main reasons the culture-matters theme emerged was to help the set act as glue between Movie and standard.

[Thranduil]

Check out the first draft of the design skeleton!

[Witchkingx5]

This died somehow... or is there any progress?

[Cw0rk]

This died somehow... or is there any progress?

I think that it died or it is in a coma. It's sad but it's what happen with at least 80% of all DC sets.

[chompers]

we could try again if Thranduil is interested but the idea was to get the community involved and by the end there was not many people posting ideas or comment regularly.

[Thranduil]

we could try again if Thranduil is interested but the idea was to get the community involved and by the end there was not many people posting ideas or comment regularly.

I'm still interested. I became very busy soon after I started it, unfortunately, and I can't guarantee that I'll have enough time to run it now. But essentially there was a lack of flowing ideas.

I will think on this and probably make a reboot at some point. Though any of you could attempt the same sort of project!

Thranduil