Rule Query - 11S138 - Skulking Goblin

[ScottieB]

Just a quick query on 11S138 - Skulking Goblin: 

The card text states that the "Fellowship's current site gains underground".  Now I know that "gains" is in "addition too", but the effect doesn't appear to have a limit.  The site gains the additional keyword, but it doesn't state that it is removed at re-group or end-of-turn ...

Does this keyword stay for the entire game?  Can it be spotted if you use 11S112 - Conquered Halls even if both players are two sites passed it ?  If your opponent captures a site, and you liberate it, does it still apply?

[MuadDib85]

'The fellowship's current site' is the key part.

Skulking Goblin will always be at the same site as the fellowship and the text is only active while Skulking Goblin is alive. As soon as he dies the site is no longer underground.

[ScottieB]

Hrm ... it's interesting wording.  Usually cards have a "while" statement in there, such as "while you can spot x, this minion is str +x"; but as soon as state changes, the "while" statement ceases to be true.

I would have expected Decipher to write something like "While the fellowship are at the current site, it gains underground", or "Until the fellowship moves from the current site, it gains underground". 

It just seems vague, especially since "Moves from" and "while" are words used consistently elsewhere.

My local area have assumed that it's persistent for a while now (we usually just place a discarded minion on the site to indicate it's also an underground).

As a follow up question, since the site "loses" underground when the fellowship stops, Goblin Hordes wouldn't key on the fellowships next turn would it?

[MuadDib85]

No, Goblin Hordes will not work the next turn. Skulking Goblin's text is only active while he is in play.

[Tbiesty]

No, Goblin Hordes will not work the next turn. Skulking Goblin's text is only active while he is in play.

Correct.

[ScottieB]

Thanks for clearing that up !

[Elessar's Socks]

I'm not sure if the rulebook actually covers when effects turn off when the effect isn't coming from a phase action. I'd play it though so that the keyword gain lasts only while Skulking Goblin is active, and is applied only to the fellowship's current site (even if the fellowship has moved more than once).

Maybe something like Gondor Bow could serve as an analogy. The strength +1 bonus doesn't stick around if the Bow is discarded, and it doesn't apply to the original bearer after the Bow is transferred.

[Gil-Estel]

If I remember correctly, only movelimit is modified even after the source has been discarded

[ScottieB]

So, you're suggesting that the keyword would be removed if Skulking Goblin was killed in a skirmish ?  It wouldn't even last until regroup or end-of-turn ?

I find the wording of the card to be most odd - To me, when played, it just adds the keyword to the current site.  There's no "until the regroup phase" or "while goblin is not discarded" or any other limitation. 

The whole move limit thing, as pointed out by Gil-Estel, is a good example of a similar issue - but there is a ruling on that.  This card just seems vague ! (and it's not like they didn't have enough room to put in more text!!!!!)

[ket_the_jet]

So, you're suggesting that the keyword would be removed if Skulking Goblin was killed in a skirmish ?  It wouldn't even last until regroup or end-of-turn ?

It is not being suggested; it is being said.

His text is only active so long as he is alive.
-wtk

[ScottieB]

It is not being suggested; it is being said.

His text is only active so long as he is alive.
-wtk

Ok ... settle down!

When someone replies with "I'm not sure if the rulebook actually covers when effects turn off ..."  and "I'd play it though so that ..." then I believe it's being suggested.

Obviously, you're stating... and I thank you for your definitive response...

[Elessar's Socks]

I find the wording of the card to be most odd - To me, when played, it just adds the keyword to the current site.  There's no "until the regroup phase" or "while goblin is not discarded" or any other limitation.

This goes back to the Gondor Bow example in my post you quoted. Effects that don't give a limit (and don't result from phase actions) are fairly common. They stop affecting the game when the card becomes inactive (e.g. Skulking Goblin being killed). The reason move limit modifications needed an entry is because they don't follow normal behavior.

[ScottieB]

@Elessar's Socks

Not that I want to be argumentative (Seriously!!!), but I don't see the correlation with this and the Gondow Bow.  The Gondor Bow has two clear limits -

- The card must have a Gondor bearer in order to be active (If the culture is magically changed, or if it is discarded, it no longer meets this criteria, and can no longer do anything)
- The bearer MUST be a knight for the modifier to apply (if there was some magic card that could remove the "Knight" keyword, then when checking str values in a skirmish, it would no longer apply)

Skulking Goblin appears to have no defined limit; There is no -
- Until the end of the turn
- Until the end/start of the regroup phase
- While you can spot
- While the fellowship is at the current site
- etc

Heck, it doesn't even say "WHEN YOU PLAY SKULKING GOBLIN, the current site gains underground"; so why doesn't it apply to the next site if the fellowship double moves and it's still on the table?

This game has been dead for a few years now, and you guys have been playing many more games than myself, so I totally accept the consensus here, but this card seems poorly defined and horribly lazy to me. 

Only a few extra words would have made this absolutely clear.  I don't consider myself horribly bad with rules, but this one has totally confused me, and my local area.  Imagine a new player?

Appreciate the feedback.

:-(

[ket_the_jet]

I thought the Gondor Bow example was perfect. You play it on a strength six companion. Now the companion is strength seven. The Bow gets discarded, the companion is strength six again.

The text is only active while the card is in play. The only modifiers that last even after a card is discarded are move limit modifiers.
-wtk

[Zurcamos]

@ ScottieB: I think I see where the problem is.  You said, "Why doesn't it apply to the next site if the fellowship double move and it's still on the table?"  The text DOES apply to the second site of the double move, if both the fellowship and Skulking Goblin are there and active.  Now, any site(S) the fellowship moved from or will move to at some point in the turn are not underground, only the "current site."  If it only applied to the first move, I could see it being confusing.  As it stands though, I think the text is perfect, neither poorly designed, nor horribly lazy.