So Fair, So Desperate

[Kralik]

So Fair, So Desperate...

Can you play this card if you start with 4 cards in hand?

[Thranduil]

Actually I think this falls under the same category as cards like They Are Coming about the independence of cost and effect. But the answer is the same - no you can't!

[Elessar's Socks]

I'm inclined to say yes. When you play a card, it enters the void before you meet requirements to play it. Therefore if you are the FP player and the requirement is for you to have initiative, the card doesn't count--at this point it's not in your hand.

SFSD though requires that the Shadow have initiative. If you being with four cards in hand and SFSD is sent to the void, then I think you'd meet that requirement.

[TheJord]

From the CRD - playing the card

Part 1 - "You cannot count The Card for initiative."

Part 3 - "Pay costs to play The Card. This includes both twilight costs and other costs included in game text."

Part 6 - "If initiative is a requirement for an effect, you cannot count The Card."

I would suggest you can play it.

[TheJord]

I think step 6 makes me think that when the card's effects are played, it is not counted for initiative.

[Alazzar]

Jord's right, the sequence on playing a card specifically states that the card being played can't count towards initiative.  Thus, only the other three cards in your hand count, and if you've only got 3, Shadow has initiative.

Another step in the sequence to quote (if people aren't yet convinced) is step 2:

"2. Meet requirements to play The Card. If you are the Free Peoples player and initiative is a requirement for playing The Card, you must have four cards in your hand not counting The Card."

That's saying that if you have an initiative-requiring card, you MUST have a total of 5 cards (or more) in hand to play it, because the one you're playing doesn't count.  This just serves to reinforce what Jord said:  the card you're playing isn't taken into account when it comes to determining initiative.

[Thranduil]

Yeah, fair enough indeed.

[legolas3333]

Ket: it's like all save one, if it's the fourth card in your hand and you play it you don't have initiative