Archery Question

[Gwaihir]

I have a question about how things work in the archery phase, particularly what happens if all minions are killed by archery actions.  I have been on both sides of this situation now, and want a clear answer.

Say there is one minion and he performs an action to add to the archery total.  For example an uruk-hai uses weapons of isengard, or a southron uses rapid fire.  After this, the free player kills the minion, with Legolas, Greenleaf or something.  Since the last minion has been killed, do you go imediately to the regroup phase, or do you assign archery wounds.

Relevant parts of the rules:  "When all archery wounds have been assigned, proceed to the assignment phase.  If there are no minions left after the archery phase, then skip directly to the regroup phase." 
"• Perform archery actions
• Determine archery totals for each side.
• Free Peoples player assigns archery wounds to his companions (and participating allies).
• Free Peoples player chooses one Shadow player.
• That Shadow player assigns archery wounds to his minions."

My take is that if all minions are eleminated, you still have to determine archery totals and assign wounds before going to the regroup phase.

[ket_the_jet]

If you kill all minions, there is no archery total.
-wtk

[ket_the_jet]

Just to elaborate, you perform archery actions before you determine the archery total. So even if you add five to the archery total, the archery total is not set until all archery actions have taken place.
-wtk

[legolas3333]

So If your opponent has 3x Orc Bowmen in his support area and an Orc Ambusher in play, you can kill the Ambusher with archery actions (Greenleaf, Aragorn's Bow) and there will be no minion archery total.

[Elgar]

If you kill all minions, there is no archery total.
-wtk

Not true.  There are many things that add to the archery total, and that archery total can be non-zero even if all minions are killed/discarded before the end of the archery phase.
Assuming you got to the aarchery phase, you would still have to assign wounds based on the minion archery total.

[Gwaihir]

Legolas3333, your example does not apply here.  Orc Bowmen activates in the determine archery totals step.  If all orcs are killed before that, it can't spot and can't activate.  This is different from a situation where an archery action has already occured before the minion is removed.

I suggested weapons of isengard as an example.  It is an archery action and doesn't even need to spot a minion to go off.  The rules do not say that once all minions are eliminated, skip directly to the regroup phase.  As I read them, you perform each step and only skip to regroup if all minions are gone once the phase is done.  The phase isn't done until each step is performed.

So lets say there is an uruk-hai archer, a copy of weapons of isengard and legolas greenleaf.  Legolas exerts and wounds him.  The shadow player uses weapons of isengard.  Legolas kills the uruk-hai.  At this point, there are no minions, but that +2 to the minion archery total is still hanging there.  Both players pass and then you move to the step "determine archery totals".  The rules do not say you need a minion to have an archery total.  So that +2 minion archery should be added to the total.

[Elessar's Socks]

So lets say there is an uruk-hai archer, a copy of weapons of isengard and legolas greenleaf.  Legolas exerts and wounds him.  The shadow player uses weapons of isengard.  Legolas kills the uruk-hai.  At this point, there are no minions, but that +2 to the minion archery total is still hanging there.  Both players pass and then you move to the step "determine archery totals".  The rules do not say you need a minion to have an archery total.  So that +2 minion archery should be added to the total.

Yes. You do not need a minion around in order to "conduct archery fire."

[Thranduil]

So lets say there is an uruk-hai archer, a copy of weapons of isengard and legolas greenleaf.  Legolas exerts and wounds him.  The shadow player uses weapons of isengard.  Legolas kills the uruk-hai.  At this point, there are no minions, but that +2 to the minion archery total is still hanging there.  Both players pass and then you move to the step "determine archery totals".  The rules do not say you need a minion to have an archery total.  So that +2 minion archery should be added to the total.

Yes. You do not need a minion around in order to "conduct archery fire."

But in the case when there are no minions at the start of the archery phase, is it clear from the rules that you skip straight to the regroup phase and don't get a chance to perform archery actions like Weapons of Isengard? I just want a rule here that tells us exactly when you check to see if there are minions so that you can do the phase.

[Elessar's Socks]

The check comes at the end of the phases, i.e.:

"If there are no minions in play at the end of the final Shadow phase, then skip directly to the regroup phase."
"If there are no minions left after the maneuver phase, then skip directly to the regroup phase."
"If there are no minions left after the archery phase, then skip directly to the regroup phase."

[Thranduil]

The check comes at the end of the phases, i.e.:

"If there are no minions in play at the end of the final Shadow phase, then skip directly to the regroup phase."
"If there are no minions left after the maneuver phase, then skip directly to the regroup phase."
"If there are no minions left after the archery phase, then skip directly to the regroup phase."

Gotcha! Thanks.

[ket_the_jet]

I'm content with ES's explanation.
-wtk

[ket_the_jet]

http://lotrtcgwiki.com/forums/index.php/topic,3572.msg43241.html#msg43241
-wtk

[Gwaihir]

Yes, orc bowmen needs to spot an orc during the part of the archery phase when archery totals are counted.  Some other cards, like weapons of isengard, don't have to spot anything to add to the archery total.