Hobbit Game on Gemp - Current Status and Bugs

[daisukeman]

cool!
while we are fixing stuff..this one is a bit silly but should be easy to adjust (caught in a sack's final text):

[Dictionary]

Thranduil participates in Archery Fire and Skirmishes (according to his in-game data), rather than just skirmishes.
Tauriel lets the shadow player choose which minion is returned.

I would like to clarify that The Evil Becomes Stronger affects all allies (I know non-archers were already mentioned) - was this completely fixed when the code was changed?

http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=Dictionary$ga2k6xlglnkonols

[daisukeman]

Same game as above, "different perspective"   : http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=daisukeman$6r7wipg912zpqipn.

But, this time I'm reporting that site 2 didn't let me play a troll knife.
Site 2 fails to often for me as a shadow player, so it's not only with the troll knife. I've come to the conclusion that this fails whenever the fps has more than 1 "at the start of maneuver" action and performs them both.
Seems like the bug is counting that 2 actions were already done so no more "at the start of maneuver" should happen.
Whereas I also think (correct me if I'm wrong) that such "at the start" timing should be intertwined, between fps and shadow (first fps choose one action, then shadow, then fps, etc).

Also, I've got this question:
Is it OK/intended that site 5 doesn't prevent gandalf/elven allies from skirmishing fierce rounds? The site says "a skirmish" so I'm unsure...

Thanks!

[daisukeman]

hey, we're getting much closer now! good job!
still have a few things to report:


1. (old thrush): apparently his maneuver ability can't be used unless his aid cost is paid. is this intended/ok?

2. (old thrush + battle fury): gives a +4 bonus even though the event demands a dwarven follower.

3. (minor label bug): this was from last time, not sure if it was fixed. see image:



link: http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=daisukeman$i7tf7g5m8lj5oag9

[Chrispy77]

http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=LlamaHero$c960wujkn0ti9rps

Another bug discovered- Nori's ability should only apply to manuever phase, but in the game above you can see Nori's ability is used at site 7 during a skirmish phase

[Durin's Heir]

I'm sorry for this delay, been busy and tired. Here goes:


@Chrispy77: Added Nori to the Bugs list.

@Dictionary: The Evil Becomes Stronger was fixed by MarcinS and Phallen. Tauriel apparently was copied from Elven Rope, while Thranduil's problem* comes from the lack of a Gemp function to allow an ally only to participate in skirmishes (without archery); added them to the list.

* I recall dmaz saying there was no such function, when fixing a bug with Dunlending Ravager: the Ravager didn't really allow the ally to participate in assignment actions, but merely assigned the ally to himself (the bug was detected 'cause Bill Ferny could NOT join the fight). Dmaz used then the function of Horn of Boromir (which includes Archery phase, but being past-Archery that's simply ignored), and so he fixed the Ravager. But that's not enough for Thranduil (and "Former Herald" Roäc in the next Extension). And is totally intentional that Thranduil can fight but NOT take arrows.


@daisukeman: Post #1: Forest River lasts only during the phase it was used, so is totally ok that Thranduil & Army were able to defend at the fierce assignment.

Post #2: 1) Yes, Old Thrush works only when attached. That's how Decipher ruled for followers: "While your follower is in your support area, it has no effect on the game... When your follower is borne by a companion, that follower will provide an ongoing effect or a special ability that may then be used." (Hunters Starter Rulebook)

2) Battle Fury's slightly bugged then. Added to the list.

3) Hmm, that wasn't fixed...

...site 2 didn't let me play a Troll Knife...  I've come to the conclusion that this fails whenever the FP has more than 1 "at the start of maneuver" action and performs them both...

Interesting theory! I believe the same now that you mention so.

Whereas I also think (correct me if I'm wrong) that such "at the start" timing should be intertwined, between fps and shadow (first fps choose one action, then shadow, then fps, etc).

You're right, optional actions are always intercalated, being 1st the FP player (while required actions' order is decided solely by the FP player).



Thank you all for your collaboration.

[daisukeman]

Thanks a lot!

@daisukeman: Post #1: Forest River lasts only during the phase it was used, so Thranduil & Son should have been able to defend at the fierce assignment. Added to the list.

Understood, so exerting two times (at different stages of assignment phases), will not allow Gandalf to fight any skirmish, right?

Post #2: 1) Yes, Old Thrush works only when attached. That's how Decipher ruled for followers: "While your follower is in your support area, it has no effect on the game... When your follower is borne by a companion, that follower will provide an ongoing effect or a special ability that may then be used." (Hunters Starter Rulebook)

Still learning, more so about followers which were post-shadows.
I guess other followers were not ambiguous because they usually have an ability related to their "bearer", so there's no room for misinterpretation.

[Durin's Heir]

Understood, so exerting two times (at different stages of assignment phases), will not allow Gandalf to fight any skirmish, right?

Yes, once per each assignment phase you want to unable that eligible character.

Still learning, more so about followers which were post-shadows.
I guess other followers were not ambiguous because they usually have an ability related to their "bearer", so there's no room for misinterpretation.

True, all Decipher followers refer to "bearer", or to "when/each time you attach/transfer this follower" so they don't need additional coding to block them from working from support area... except only for Celebring, who has a "when you play" trigger.

Röac will need too to be coded to work only when borne.

[Durin's Heir]

Creator just reported this (thanks mate!):

"[Nov 27 03:32:27*] Creator: Bug Report: Underground Lake only lets Shadow player play a condition from Discard pile, not Draw Deck."

* Server time.

[-Enola-]

The Restrited list seems a bit too complicated for new players. I don't know if it will be balanced but here's a proposition to make the format rules simpler:

Each main deck card in 4x and all Shadow cards in Swarm Pack and Beatdown Pack in 4x

R-list:
Bilbo (+restriction by name)
Gandalf (+restriction by name)
each Dwarf companion
each Dwarf follower
Elrond
Bard
The One Ring
Glamdring
Orcrist
Sting
Smaug
all cards from Supplementary packs (ex: Ridlles in the Dark, Beorn,....)

[Not a Zombie]

It would be simple to figure out if the quantities that show up in the collection for each card line up with the max allowed per deck.

[Durin's Heir]

It would be simple to figure out if the quantities that show up in the collection for each card line up with the max allowed per deck.

Great idea. That'd need to be fixed in All Cards to be easier to correct later if needed. Currently Gemp does that with sites in All Cards, so perhaps is not so hard to do for Draw Deck cards in the Hobbit.

The Restrited list seems a bit too complicated for new players.

What I've found is that people don't really want to play a simulation-of-Draft format... they just want the freedom of Constructed. Let Draft be a format by itself (like a Sealed league, or MarcinS' idea of Heathstone's drafting) and give more freedom to players. But still, restricting some cards is really important to balance the format. So this is what I'd do, as a first experiment:

* Most things as Enola says:
   - R-list: Smaug; Bilbo and Gandalf (by name); each Dwarf companion and follower; each Main Deck artifact.
   - each other Main Deck card (all FP events and all other Shadow cards) max 4x.
   - each card in Shadow Packs 4x.

* Differences:
   1.- Main Deck allies 4x
   2.- All cards in Supplementary packs 2x.

1.- Restricting those 2 allies makes little sense to me. They will have AWINL so it's the same as happens with LOTR TCG decks with heavy character presence: they tend to use only 1x of each ally, while packing 3x or 4x AWINL. Bard would get some discard-to-heal potential (and Elrond, but doesn't need it).

2.- Restricting the cards in Supplementary Packs to 1x is too much. 6 are FP and only 2 Shadow in each, and thus those FP cards have the important role of countering the Shadow's power (of the now totally unleashed Shadow Packs). So 2x to all them.

Also, having 1x only of a card makes often ureliable to build a deck around it. Some cards can be fetched, but you simply cannot base your deck around Skillful Negociator or Burglar's Contract, if everything depends on drawing that solitary copy. Possessions and events are the most crippled by that restriction, as there's nothing to fetch events, while only 1 possession weapon can be searched by Site 2 (but at the expense of not playing an artifact weapon). Also, a 2nd copy of an ally will allow some degree of healing.


Just saying.

[Phallen Cassidy]

Fixed Nori, Battle Fury, and Tauriel. Attempted fix for Beorn. Got some ideas on a few of the others, but it'll be a while before I can look at them with much scrutiny.

Are you certain about Underground Lake? The same function which plays The One Ring from the draw deck is used to play conditions from the draw deck, and I think I've had no problem playing conditions from the draw deck myself using that card. Is there a replay available?

[-Enola-]

* Differences:
   1.- Main Deck allies 4x
   2.- All cards in Supplementary packs 2x.

1.- Restricting those 2 allies makes little sense to me. They will have AWINL so it's the same as happens with LOTR TCG decks with heavy character presence: they tend to use only 1x of each ally, while packing 3x or 4x AWINL. Bard would get some discard-to-heal potential (and Elrond, but doesn't need it).

2.- Restricting the cards in Supplementary Packs to 1x is too much. 6 are FP and only 2 Shadow in each, and thus those FP cards have the important role of countering the Shadow's power (of the now totally unleashed Shadow Packs). So 2x to all them.

Also, having 1x only of a card makes often ureliable to build a deck around it. Some cards can be fetched, but you simply cannot base your deck around Skillful Negociator or Burglar's Contract, if everything depends on drawing that solitary copy. Possessions and events are the most crippled by that restriction, as there's nothing to fetch events, while only 1 possession weapon can be searched by Site 2 (but at the expense of not playing an artifact weapon). Also, a 2nd copy of an ally will allow some degree of healing.

I think it would be easier to make:
Smaug + all FP cards from main deck (except events)  -> R-list

Moreover, we haven't use the Esgaroth pack yet, but it will make Bard wery strong (with a lot of healing for him). And Elrond will have soon his pack.


Don't know if 2x or 1x would be better:
- 1x only one R-list no other number of copies restriction
- 2x many different FP strategies

The second option could make some FP part very strong:
- 2x Acorn + 2x Old Trush -> Moria swarm will easily lost all its conditions.
- 2x Beorn + 2x Egles Are Coming + 2x His Wrath Was Redoubled   + Gandalf The Grey + a lot of events....


Thanks a lot to all contributors.

[daisukeman]

Hi All,
I just thought I'd report the silly bugs as well since we seem to have moved past the really major ones.

1. This one needs confirmation, and for the moment is more like an anecdote.
I was browsing the cards and wondered about "Dwarven song". So began to look for possible followers' costs and noticed that Bofur seems to be listed as if it costs 1 twilight.
So this one is about a potential bug with this card when used by Dwarven song.



2. This one is probably not even worth fixing, but maybe just mentioning it.
The chat's log prompts about added burdens while this format uses "doubts". I sense the code reuses the burden stuff so I'd leave it as it is, unless you guys want this to match 100% with the text on cards..



---
At this point I am also wondering if someone has explicitly validated that dwarves (either followers or companions) are not actually spotted to reduced the cost of Smaug when stacked on "The Arkenstone" artifact.
About the current discussion, my two cents on An Acorn from Beorn's house is that the card by itself is highly powerful, so maybe it should be unique so that stacking 2 copies to wipe conditions in any given moment in a same turn isn't possible.


Best regards,