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[leokula]

That being said, I'm really jazzed that they've got another game in the oven. If you enjoyed LotR - or SWCCG, or ST1E or 2E, or ANY of their not-Beyblade games - then you should be chomping at the bit for FK. This is the same core group of designers that brought you each of those games and this new product looks to be delivering the same great product.

Totally agree. No matter what, it's the company that made us cheer with LOTR so why not have a look at it?

BTW, LOTR wouldn't go very far anyway... there were already a hundred versions of each character and things were already repeating themselves like warg riders, rangers, pipeweeds, ents, trackers... we have to remember that LOTR had a limited pool of story and characters to draw from... it's not like MTG that has absolutely no limit for the designer's creativity.

If you ask me, they could have ended LOTR sooner, and get LOTR fans hooked with something else, but I'm no marketing expert nor cardgame designer, that's just my 2 cents

[FingolfinFinwe]

But then we wouldn't have gems such as Rapid Reload, Prized Lagan, The Faithful Stone, Namarie, Frenzy of Arrows...    ...but really I'm glad the game went as far as it did.

As far as Fight Klub is concerned.. I just don't care for the cards so far, or for the marketing plan.  I'll most likely pass.

[FM]

That being said, I'm really jazzed that they've got another game in the oven. If you enjoyed LotR - or SWCCG, or ST1E or 2E, or ANY of their not-Beyblade games - then you should be chomping at the bit for FK. This is the same core group of designers that brought you each of those games and this new product looks to be delivering the same great product.

Totally agree. No matter what, it's the company that made us cheer with LOTR so why not have a look at it?

BTW, LOTR wouldn't go very far anyway... there were already a hundred versions of each character and things were already repeating themselves like warg riders, rangers, pipeweeds, ents, trackers... we have to remember that LOTR had a limited pool of story and characters to draw from... it's not like MTG that has absolutely no limit for the designer's creativity.

If you ask me, they could have ended LOTR sooner, and get LOTR fans hooked with something else, but I'm no marketing expert nor cardgame designer, that's just my 2 cents

I was actually discussing this with some friends today and a local MtG Judge made the exact same remark, there were a bilion versions... of Frodo. It was STILL Frodo, though. This DOES kill some of the design space, although they COULD have gotten around to it and expanded the concepts. A lot of playes would not cross over to another product anyway, since we have TCG players that play LotR and we have Tolkien fans that play LotR, and these latter most likely wouldn't migrate.
As for Fight Klub, so far, I'm not impressed. Perhaps gameplay will be fun, and since it "seems" to follow in the footsteps of Anachronism a bit, it might be awesome, I like the idea of a limited pool, which means basically anyone can get anything, so playing skill and deckbuilding is what really matters.

[leokula]

I think they did get around it LOL that's when the War of the Ring block came out.

After Mount Doom, the trilogy was covered, all the main stuff was in the game and then War of the Ring came and then you had another uruk deck, another hobbit deck, another ranger deck, another uruk tracker deck, another archers deck, another orc swarm deck... they managed to release two blocks after the pool had ended.

After T&D I really think it would be so #$&*@! hard to continue, even tho they had planned up until Shelob's Lair I guess, which would bring new shelobs, new gollums and stuff LOL more repetition...

[menace64]

But that's not to say that Decipher wasn't wholly repeating their own steps by Shadows. Going back through a second time allowed them to pick up the Extended Edition segments, and I personally loved seeing those Extended Middle-earth cards.

If I had been in charge of set design post-Mount Doom, I would have done things very differently. It was dumb to stick to a linear process of release, covering mainly FotR for three sets and TTT for the next three, with plans to work through RotK after that; it was dumber still to put into play "brand new" cultures that were simply watered-down versions of their old counterparts.

I would have started with the War of the Ring block, nixing the entire hunters keyword crap (or changing it so it didn't suck and make all other previously-released characters suck worse) and focusing on elements of all three movies. The old cultures would have remained and the entire block would have been about the big battles of LotR. It would have been an epic three sets and could have kept interest stocked in the game.

After that? I dunno. More character-driven stuff, I suppose. But I know I wouldn't have written ridiculous cards like Prized Lagan and The Great Ring.

EDIT: Oh look, we're talking about LotR in the FK forum. Stop doing that, you people.

[leokula]

... block would have been about the big battles of LotR. It would have been an epic three sets and could have kept interest stocked in the game.

By that you mean you'd release more uruk berserkers, more besiegers, more valiant guys and more knights? LOL In case you don't remember there's a set called Mines of Moria, another one called Battle of Helm's Deep and yet another one called Siege of Gondor... rings a bell? LOL Sounds like you'd just do EXACTLY what they did with the war of the ring block.

See my point? There was no way out of repetition for Decipher. Don't get me wrong, I really like the stuff after War of the Ring, I'm just saying that the game wouldn't go far even if the designers were cardgame genious.

[DáinIronfoot]

As I would hope I and others have been showing with our dream card sets, there is still TONS of untapped material, and that's just from the novels and films themselves! They just got boring an unimaginative as they bled off their talent. Yes, they may have had one or two designers still working their guts out right to the end, but it seems they were surrounded by a bunch of typing monkeys. With a couple fingers missing. There is NOT excuse for the blatant spelling and grammatical errors--not to mention the sheer brokenness of cards--near the end of LOTR TCG's run.

THAT is why I am not interested in being part of this "gaming revolution" known as Fight Klub. I have to see proof Decipher is capable of not ramming good ideas into the ground and substituting them with trash BEFORE I trust them with my time and interest again. There is no benefit of the doubt with me.

[leokula]

LOL I hope you're kidding about DC's right?  I mean, it's funny and stuff, but 99.9% of the stuff in that forum is just plain crazy and would never make it to release. 

It's nowhere near the professional card designing process. And don't forget the cardgame is based on the movie, not the novels... specially because of the pictures. Making one card of a guy that's not in the movies is cool, like Glorfindel or Grimbeorn, makes people curious, but try printing a whole set out of anonimous dwarves nobody gives two &$%# about and see if anyone will buy it LMAO

DCing is one thing, but once you have money involved, you can't just "dream" and do whatever you want, and rings with different stats and different activation costs. That's where you separate boys from men Anyone can write a super wicked awesome hyper Witch King in a set with 500 cards with awesome abilities and tokens and stuff, but would it work in the real world? Probably not.

[Elf_Lvr]

I think you're wrong about DC's - they're certainly not for humor. And although I know we're not "professional" card designers, but I think that the best people to design a game are people that, you know, PLAY THE GAME. Sure, there'd have to be playtesting involved - something that's hard to do without being able to physically make cards - but hey, we've got more people checking the balance of these cards than Decipher did at the end.

Perhaps you'd market a card game to people who play only because they're LotR Movie fanboys. I'd market the game to people who enjoyed the game. So yes, they would give "two &$%#" about new cards, based off the books alone - heck, I would.

And hey - why wouldn't you want "super wicked awesome" cards with "awesome" abilities in a game? If by that you mean overpowered stuff, I could agree, but seriously, the "craziness" of it is what makes me love it. Like I said, it'd take playtesting to make sure it wouldn't be TOO out there, but inventiveness keeps a game alive, not just reprinting the same old stuff, like you said.

Economics is too much about sheer profit and too little about dreams anymore, IMO. But that's off-topic, I know.

Anyways, I'm just not interested in the whole idea of "Fight Klub"... besides the fact that I could throw Decipher's game development staff farther than I trust 'em.

[HawkeyeSPF]

On the topic of LotR DC's and movie vs non-movie material, I enjoyed the game just as much if not more than I enjoyed the movies, but I really don't care AT ALL for the LotR universe books like the Silmarillion and such, so I for one would not at all want a lot of the DC's to be real cards. It really would ruin the game for me.

[leokula]

On the topic of LotR DC's and movie vs non-movie material, I enjoyed the game just as much if not more than I enjoyed the movies, but I really don't care AT ALL for the LotR universe books like the Silmarillion and such, so I for one would not at all want a lot of the DC's to be real cards. It really would ruin the game for me.

Same here. Believe me, we're the devastating majority.

[DáinIronfoot]

I take pride in my DCs, and I put a lot of time and research into getting them right, all the way down to the lore I choose. I would pit my DCs against the last couple Decipher sets any time. Do I get paid for it? Heck no. But I try to be "professional" about it. Have you bothered to look through my cards, or just blown them off as "plain crazy" by the simple fact that they're "dream" cards?

You want to diss DCs, that's fine. But keep this in mind...what's one the coolest versions of Gandalf out there? I think a lot of people would rank Gandalf, Returned right near the top of their lists. Guess what? That card was created not by Decipher's staff, but by our own Menace64. Gandalf Returned is a "dream" card.

Give a few of us DCers the keys to LOTR TCG and I think it'd still be thriving today. I firmly believe that.

You say most DCs wouldn't make it to release? I'm still wondering how cards like Frenzy of Arrows, Prized Lagan, Destroyers and Usurpers, Erkenbrand's Shield, Vile Pit, and Orkish Warg-master ever got released...and I could go on and on. Let's face it: the mistakes and overpowered cards in those sets was nothing short of pathetic. "Professional card designing process" my butt. Nevermind his mistake-ridden text: the Warg-master has "Argh!!" as his lore, for crying out loud! You call that "professional"?! I call it an absolute joke.

Decipher lost its creativity and imagination near the end of LOTR TCG's run. They still had a good idea every now and then, yes, but their people became blinded by the almighty dollar and the perceived gullibility of their fanbase, and their product clearly showed it. They become disinterested in being truly creative anymore, as long as their product was selling. They lost the passion for the story and the game that we DCers have. That is the biggest difference, I think.

Boys and men? I feel confident in where I stand. I think the flurry of activity on the X-list and revision list with the last few sets indicates otherwise for Decipher's typing monkeys.

[leokula]

Well I think Gandalf, Returned sucks tbh anyway, he must have been playtested, they didn't just read it and say "wow, nice, let's release it".

No matter what you say, the truth is DCing means nothing, it's a bunch of cards that are not printed, nobody plays with them, nobody playtests them. People just read them and GUESS, that's it they GUESS if it's balanced 'cause they don't play them, and the ONLY, I mean ONLY way to know if a card is good for playing and is balanced is PLAYING with it, and I haven't seen anybody playing with none of the DC's. And in any of your topics I've seen information as to how your DC's play. That's why they're just dreeeaaamm cards, cause u dream u could play with it, but you don't so, ur about a thousand miles away from writing real cards.

When you start playtesting your DC's, I might give them some credibility. Until then mate, it's just a bunch of gametext for me

[DáinIronfoot]

Fair enough. I DO intend to playtest a few of my favorites using a program like Lackey, I just haven't gotten around to it yet. I'd be curious to see, however, the playtesting process that allowed, say, Frenzy of Arrows to hit the gaming scene.

Ultimately, you're right: DCs are just a bunch of text and hypotheticals. We can't print them because we don't have the means, and it's difficult (at best) to playtest them all. It's certainly nearly impossible to get OTHERS to play with them due to those constraints. But I don't think that means they should be immediately dismissed as illegitimate ideas unworthy of printing were circumstances different.

I can't explain why I make cards I know will almost certainly never see play by others. I'm just passionate about--in my own mind, at least--proving that LOTR TCG didn't have to be run into the ground like it did, but that it could have thrived had Decipher invested even minimal (for them with their resources) time and effort into doing so. The game is still great, and could be even greater with some fresh eyes and minds working at it. For me, the game lives on not only by playing it, but through the DCs I make. It's hard to explain, I guess.

[leokula]

I don't blame you for writing DC's at all man, I'm just saying that just cause there are tons of DC's, doesn't mean there'd be a lot more for comercial LOTR TCG.

By the way, frenzy of arrows is not bad in my opinion. It's an usual follower hate card like there were ally hate cards once. The problem lies with the Saruman follower, cause that's where anti follower cards started being abused, cause you could use them and benefit from them by having a shadow follower. Take out Saruman and then frenzy of arrows and whisper in the dark become just normal cards to reduce follower abuse in the scene.

Decipher made mistakes. They screwed up about 3 sets out of 19 (actually just very few cards in these sets, but...). What about the other 16? I say there were excelently designed, but all you guys seem to talk about is prized legan, frenzy of &$*$%] arrows and erkenbrand's shield. That's 3 cards out of about 2.000 released. Let's say they did 50 stupid ridiculous miserable cards out of 2.000. I think that is less than 3% compared to 97% well designed balanced cards that made us stay in the game for so long and still play it after it's gone.

You say you would like to know the play testing involved to release Frenzy of Arrows... how about the playtesting involved to release threats? or resistance?

So is Decipher an overall good cardgame designer or what?