another loop

[Mc Tono]

Hello there,
feel free to move this topic around to where it belongs. I don`t no for sure if I`m @ the right place here for this discussion. But hey, it`s a tricky one.

In my search to beating my opponents I`m (of course) allways searching to find new ways to controll the game. Mainly my own game and most of the times my opponents one.
Setting up the game can take some time and be effective, but when certain cards hit the table, the opponent knows what he`s dealing with. (most of the time)
Thus--> my quest--> find new loops. It`s fun and effective
Here`s the catch:
I think I`ve found one (a card search-loop) that I`ve never read about here on this site, but my problem is: If I post it here, I won`t be able to use it. I play Gil Estel and Mad Goblin quite regularly and it would spoil the fun. So my question is: Which ones are allready known? And I`m not talking about open-loops.

Btw I`m Dutch so my English will lack the proper grammar. Please forgive me and then mercifully correct me where I`m wrong.

[Mc Tono]

I already know of the threat-fortification KING thing, and the Horn-follower thing.

[SomeRandomDude]

NappyKorn just recently uncovered a new loop. The Bilbo RB loop. You play Red Book of Westmarch with Bilbo, Bearer of Things Burgled and A Light In His Mind. That enables you to play free tales in the regroup phase to draw a card, and since there's no rule of 4, you can play your deck.

In expanded, 3 copies of Demoralized combo quite nicely with Rapid Reload. Also, Demoralized combos with Mountain Troll and Rallying Orc to play free orc lurkers from your discard pile until the fellowship is exhausted.

Then, of course, there's all the open format loops, like Fiend, Fruit Loops, Infi Gandy, etc.

[macheteman]

i'm curious, about the bilbo tales, what happens when your hand jams with shadow cards? like, i see how you can cycle through a good portion of your deck, but to go through the whole thing, wouldn't you need a draw deck completely filtered of shadow cards?

[NappyKorn]

it's not infinite, but with only tales and 3 SFtF for the freeps left in your deck after you burn a hobbit with saved from the fire to play the non-tales you can cycle pretty well and with those odds you can set up a very punishing shadow fast .

[macheteman]

ok, thats how i though that it worked, (you can basically guarantee a completely shadow hand) but NB's wording confusilated me!

thanks,

-mm

oh, and there's always Nazzy auto-corrupt!!!

[Mc Tono]

Thanx, I already read about this tale-loop and I think it`s a great way to clearing your drawdeck. I personally think that with so many tales on the table it would be fun to combine it with so far so desperate and twofoot.  (but that would be open I think)

But I`m talking about infinite card-playing, like the Gondorian Captain threat combo. Anyone seen something like that in a none-open format?

Of course I will post my loop soon (after playing Gil Estel)

I must say I`m pretty exited....


btw what`s Nazzy autocorrupt...

[SomeRandomDude]

No, actually, So Fair, So Desperate isn't open. Neither is twofoot.

And also, Pippin, Steadfast Friend is a sweet card for the tales.

Nazzie Auto-Corrupt was piloted by me and mm (though he wrote the article) in which Gates of the Dead City were used in conjunction with Dark Fell About Him and an exhausted fellowship to heal a companion, add the burdens, and force him to be immediately exerted again with Gates of the Dead City. Lingering Shadow accelerates the process and can take a completely intact fellowship to a blasted to pieces fellowship/auto-corrupted fellowship.

If you can't quite pull off the auto-corrupt, you can always play Shotgun Enquea/Ring of Rancor to blast the fellowship to pieces next turn. That's how my version plays.

[Mc Tono]

I will probably play Gil-Estel on SDA Sunday, after that I`ll post the deck.

I`m starting to think I`m (as we say in Holland) looking (something) over its head. (forgetting something important)
Maybe a rule or a clog or a catch or something.

We`ll see this weekend...

[macheteman]

remember the rule of 4. you may only draw 4 cards during your fellowship phase. other than that, you should be fine. there aren't many other cycling prohibitions.

[SomeRandomDude]

Yeah...this may be the Denethor loop with Houses of Healing and Guarded City that doesn't work.

[Mc Tono]

G-E`s computer died. NBarden is too afraid to lose ;p
Anyone else want to play against my new-found loopdeck on SDA this week?
If my assumptions are right, this deck will change LOTR as we know it....(maybe slightly exaggerated)
The rock-paper-scissors-principal" will be cut down to "paper-fire" if I`m correct.

Remember I`m from Holland (Central European Time) if you want to play against me.

[SomeRandomDude]

What? Dude, I didn't even have SdA on the computer you wanted to play me on.

I'm more than willing to play you when I get a chance.

[Mc Tono]

Didn`t mean to offend you, really!! It was a ini mini joke. In Holland ;p means with the blink of an eye, and tounge out. (whitch creates a eye-blinking/tounge sticking out smilie) Meaning: it isn`t true.

For the Record: Nbarden did not, I repeat NOT try to chicken out on the auto-loss-game he was facing.

I beg your Barden!!

[Mc Tono]

BTW I know I`m quite a newbe here so I`m sorry if`y `all didn`t caught my drift, but you must know: G-E and I. We are like (to use a Dutch proverb) four hands on one belly!

I know Gil Estel has earned some respect here and in Europe (being voted MFP at he European Championship). Ask him.

Enough feathes in my #ss. (as we say in Holland)
I can come up with one good reason to dislike me: after you played my new loopdeck....

[macheteman]

can we see your loop deck?

[Mc Tono]

after I play it. Wanna try on SDA? You`ll be the first.

[TheJord]

Will SOMEONE please just play the man!? 

[macheteman]

if you can host sure. i can't host on sda. but if you can host i'll play. haha

[Mc Tono]

I can using Hamaci or whatever you call it. Only problem is: CET is 9 hours earlier than the American time. I`m off next Saturday. Anyone else also? Or Friday night after 8pm CET.

Will SOMEONE please just play the man!? 

Don`t be angry. I`m sure you understand my position. I`ve come up with the greatest deck in my entire 5 years of play, and I haven`t had the opportunity to play it. 

[Gil-Estel]

Yeah, me and Mc Tono, we are great friends. He is very creative, builds great decks, so I'm very anxious to see this new deck..is it standard or expanded though? I will play him in 2 weeks, than it will be out in the open, maybe earlier when I get my PC back and download SDA and hamachi once again.

[SomeRandomDude]

For the Record: Nbarden did not, I repeat NOT try to chicken out on the auto-loss-game he was facing.

Auto loss? Who says I wasn't gonna play my horn/troll swarm kill you at site 2 deck? I've got loops too man...

I beg your Barden!!

*groan*

I'm up for a game whenever I have....

1. Time.
2. Access to a computer with SdA.

[Mc Tono]

I`ll refrain from telling jokes:-[. Your taking this too literally. It will be no autowin. I`m convinced that I`ll lose against a horn/troll deck. You`ll see.
greets

[SomeRandomDude]

(I'm just teasing ya back man. )

[Mc Tono]

Beat Gil-Estel this evening: my task was done.
Here`s my loop-post:

Wouldn`t it be nice to fire 12 arrows every step taking 3 steps every turn removing all burdens and all threats every turn + every step a +14 strength bonus +discarding all shadows conditions?

Here`s how it goes:
Bid 0
Cycle like crazy until you have the following setup:

In play:
Gil Galad
2 token conditions with at least 2 tokens on each. (namarie or/and uncertain future)
Leaving forever in play or discard pile
Careful study in hand or drawdeck

Survive!
Then during the regroup:
Remove a token to play leaving forever
Discard leaving forever to draw 2 cards
Remove a token to play leaving forever
Discard leaving forever to discard the empty tokencard
Remove a token to play a token condition with 3 tokens
Remove a token to play another condition (like focus) from your discardpile
Repeat this until your hand is filled with your drawdeck

Then:
Play careful study discarding all but 8 of the following cards that are not yet in play:

-Radagast
-shadowfax
-bows
-woodhall elf
-3 x Watcher
-Still needed (also playable with gil and a threat)
(- when facing extreme conditiondiscardal: 1 or 2 copies of uncertain future)
(maybe an extra Gil for healing)

Then:
Play the rest of the discarded conditions with Gil.
Discard all shadow conditions the same way using leaving forever.

Move if possible (should work with a bunch of arrows)

- Next fellowshipphase: play fellowship-cards, remove burdens and run.
-Play still needed (place on top of deck)
-Regroup: do the Gil thing all over and use Still needed/into the west-combo to remove all threats.

The shadow is pretty self-explainatory:
-Uruk for drawal and cycle
-Tentacles for overwhelming when opponent is ahead and/or double-moves

Sites for various reasons:
-a cycling one
-2 companion getting ones
-5 marshes
-mount doom keeps marsh in the (probably last) region.

So, that`s my first deck on this forum, what do you think…..




Fellowship: (37)
Starting:
11R1 1 Ring *The One Ring, The Ring of Rings
9R+14 1 *Galadriel, Bearer of Wisdom (RB)
15R19 1 FellowShip *Legolas, Of The Woodland Realm Companion
17S11 1 FellowShip *Orophin, Silvan Elf Companion

7R24 4 FellowShip Leaving Forever Condition
11U26 4 FellowShip *Uncertain Future Condition
18R12 4 FellowShip *Gil-Galad, High King of the Noldor Companion
18C17 1 FellowShip *Woodhall Elf Follower
17U10 4 FellowShip Namarie Condition
15C15 2 FellowShip Focus Condition
7C23 1 FellowShip Into the West Condition
11R17 4 FellowShip Elven Marksmanship Condition
15R24 2 FellowShip Spied from Afar Condition
13R26 1 FellowShip Take Up the Bow Condition
4U62 3 FellowShip Elven Bow Possession
17R24 1 FellowShip *Shadowfax, Greatest of the Mearas Possession
9R+26 1 FellowShip *Radagast, The Brown Companion
7C29 1 FellowShip Still Needed Event
15R55 1 FellowShip *Aragorn, Thorongil Companion
7U19 1 FellowShip Careful Study Event

Shadow: (37)
19P21 3 Shadow *Watcher in the Water, Many-Tentacled Creature Minion
19P19 4 Shadow Reaching Tentacle Minion
19P20 4 Shadow Strong Tentacle Minion
12C146 4 Shadow Strange Device Event
12C137 4 Shadow Breeding Pit Conscript Minion
11C195 4 Shadow Murderous Uruk Minion
11U197 4 Shadow Overpowering Uruk Minion
11R181 2 Shadow Determined Uruk Minion
12U148 4 Shadow Tempest of War Condition
13U177 4 Shadow Weapons of Control Condition

Sites:
13U190 1 Site Doors of Durin Site
11S254 1 Site (1) Pelennor Flat Site
11S238 1 Site (1) Expanding Marshland Site
11S249 1 Site (1) Neekerbeekers' Bog Site
11U246 1 Site (2) Mere of Dead Faces Site
11S256 1 Site (3) The Prancing Pony Site
11U235 1 Site (3) Dammed Gate-stream Site
11S255 1 Site (3) Pinnacle of Zirakzigil Site
15R193 1 Site (3) Mount Doom Site

[TheJord]

This seems a faster variation of the original deck posted when Gil-galad, HKotN was spoiled. It used Secluded Homestead and Agility but this is better.

[sickofpalantirs]

how do you get 12 archery?

[SomeRandomDude]

Methinks it has to do with Elven Marksmanship x 4 getting played back with Gil-Galad.

[Mc Tono]

This seems a faster variation of the original deck posted when Gil-galad, HKotN was spoiled. It used Secluded Homestead and Agility but this is better.

`
Your right,
Of course this my deck is based on other ideas. btw I did not now exactly of Gil`s errata until last week.  With Gil`s errata you`ll need leaving forever. Nowadays when agility is empty then what? You`ll have to reinforce before that with cards you`ll hope to draw. That`s no loop. This way you can still clear your entire drawdeck using carefull study.
And this is standard of course.

and
homestead needs forests and rivers, also a possibility of course but in my opinion weaker. it takes a lot of cards to keep the sites river or forrest or you`ll have to bid high to let the opponent start.

how do you get 12 archery?

8 from the elven marksmanship
3 from the bows
1 from lego

[Elessar's Socks]

The Leaving Forever loop has been sitting here collecting dust, but this is the first I've heard of a deck that implements it fully, complete with a kill method (mass archery), and a Shadow that can survive the mass discard. Hat's off to you, Mc Tono!

Out of curiosity, what site were you able to pull this off?

[Mc Tono]

I

The Leaving Forever loop has been sitting here collecting dust, but this is the first I've heard of a deck that implements it fully, complete with a kill method (mass archery), and a Shadow that can survive the mass discard. Hat's off to you, Mc Tono!

Out of curiosity, what site were you able to pull this off?

Ah there it is!
I couldn`t find it. Searched far and wide. Great!
A few weeks ago I started playing Standard and saw Gil Galad. I heard about his ability and figured this one out. I couldn`t believe that no-one had seen this before.

I tried this deck about 4 times and pulled it off all 4 times. two times site 5 one time 6 and one time 4. Depending on the opponents deck.
Yesterday I played Gil-Estel. He played a siteswapping manuever-and-archery-skipping gandalf balrog deck. And I won. (although that balrog is the worst minion against this deck) Pulled it off at site 5 regroup-moved to 6. Healed next fellowship, played fellowshipcards in hand (radagast/shadowfax)  removed burdens and ran 3 steps firing at will.

[SomeRandomDude]

This deck is sweet. Out of curiosity, do you have any way of making it infinite? Like, some way of adding tokens in the regroup?

Methinks that Hearth and Hall might accelerate the process.

[Mc Tono]

what do you mean by infinite? this way there is an infinite loop. Infinite tokens means reinforcing and that`s not an option I think.

Hearth and hall should reinforce quickly and let you draw quicker with leaving forever when the loop is not yet complete, after that it doesn`t matter.

There are other ways of course, I have also the option of starting Gandalf and burning glorfindle. Sets up pretty fast also. (including his hat removing the twilight in the regroup  )

[SomeRandomDude]

I'm missing the infinite part. I'd think that infinite would require...

1: Regroup token reinforcement.
2: Ability to discard token conditions in the regroup phase.

[Elf_Lvr]

Leaving Forever could discard your token conditions.

Not sure about reinforcement, though.

[SomeRandomDude]

There's the infinite! Sweet!

[Elessar's Socks]

You get infinite tokens by replaying the token conditions (not by reinforcement). Ideally you'd have at least two token conditions that can discard themselves in the regroup phase (one helping Gil-galad replay the other before discarding itself), but only Secluded Homestead does that, and it's unique. So the workaround is to use Leaving Forever to discard the conditions. To make the loop generic, with one token condition in play (with at least 3 tokens) and the target condition in the discard pile:

1. Remove the first token (2 left) to play the target condition from your discard pile.
2. Remove the second token (1 left) to play Leaving Forever from your discard pile.
3. Remove the third token (0 left) to play the second token condition (with at least 3 tokens).
4. Discard Leaving Forever to discard the first token condition.
5. Repeat for the rest of the conditions you want to play.

For the drawing engine, the target condition would be Leaving Forever itself, which would be discarded immediately to draw 2.

It is pretty sweet. The mere fact that it's a loop might mean it'd be kicked from Standard/Expanded eventually, but it'd be interesting to see how it holds up against other decktypes, and how far it can be honed.

[Gil-Estel]

It was a great deck, but in this game he has been extremely lucky. I had just the deck for crushing him. But at site 9 he had only seen 1 balrog and 3x gollum, though they are a major part of my deck. I didn't draw captured, and the only balrog came with Sudden Strike. Nevertheless, it was awesome to see him discard all his conditions in the regroup, then simply playing them back with Gil-Galad.
I'm curious about this deck vs others, for example massive archery decks. I guess it would be in some trouble. The advantages:

-massive drawing
-massive archery
-a few strong companions
-some strength adders which come back

Disadvantages:

-no healing
-it generates quite some twilight

[Mc Tono]

Massive archery is allways a problem, (maybe a single copy of lorien`s blessing would do the trick, replay it with gil and a threat). 2 healings with focus on aragorn is little healing indeed. I don`t care about twilight in the regroup, normally 12 arrows and no conditions for the shadow would do the trick (especially with take up the bow) I`ll post my Gandalf's hat version soon..

[Milo]

Hello.
My first post on this message board Well, I've been thinking about such a version of elves from some time and that's what I've made - in this new so called 'Austria' format.

9R+ Galadriel + 11R the One Ring, RoR
Orophin 17S
Rumil 17S
Smeagol 19P

Gil-galad 18R x4
Leaving Forever 7R x4
Elven Marksmanship 11R x4
Something Slimy 15U x4
Uncertian Future 11U x4
Namarie 17U x4
Safe Passage 11R x2
One Good Turn Deserves Another 11U x1

Shadow:
All Veils removerd 1R x2
Morgul Gates 1R
Black Breath 1U
Not Easily Destroyed 1U x2
Return to its master 1R x3
Wraith World 2R x3
Nelya 2R x2
Enquea 2U x2
Resistance Becomes Unbereable 2U x4
His Terrible Servants 2R x3
Helpless 2U
Ring of Asperity 9R
Ring of Rancor 9R
Gollum 9R+
All Blade Perished 1U x3
How FP should be played was described precisely some posts ago so there's no need to write it again I've just made the deck less "vital' but it cycle far faster. And it's ok, because it's a killing version, not running one. After Leaving forever combo you should gather 8 cards you need to kill opponent. For example on 'strength' deck with Isildur + RoR you should have: Nazgul+Resistance Becomes Unbereable+Gollum+His Terrible Servants+3x Wraith World or Retur to its master + All Veils Removed+ Something For Hobbits with RoD (the most difficult one I think, along with Denethoring) you need Enquea+Helpless+Return to its master+ring of asperity+3x Resistance becomes unbereable + Gollum. And so on... With that amount of cards and that cycling it's very possible, you will be able to do this on 2-nd or 3-rd site.
Smeagol gives you pool removal, a bit of site control and faster cycling (Something Slimmy). All you need is bid high and play Damned Gate-Stream first. You don't care about burdens, after 2-3 sites usualy is game over - you kill or you can surrender

[SomeRandomDude]

The problem is that you need to run. Because you deck yourself out on the shadow which gives the freeps a free ride if you fizzle with the attack.

I think you should perhaps play Out of Sight and Shot, Hatred Stirred, stuff that nabs from discard and stuff that shuffles stuff into your deck in order to make a viable shadow.

But yeah. The deck looks unreliable and I think you need to make it more stable.