French X-List

[Enola]

In Standard Format, the 11R1   • The One Ring, The Ring of Rings is the most played ring.
So burdens come easily.

I don't think Gothmog is a good idea,
the set of Ambushers and Spearman has a low cost and you can toil the Witch-King with it .
Threats come fastly with Captured by the Ring+• Úlairë Lemenya, Eternally Threatening+• Úlairë Cantëa, Faster Than Winds.

[SomeRandomDude]

Really? I find the Great Ring to be vastly favored, but then again, that gives burdens aplenty too. But still, meta calls may be okay in some circumstances, but this is overextending, I think.

[Enola]

Sorry, Frenchs have their own X-list, so the meta in Standard is really more interessant :

- Steadfast Champion 7U49
- Aggression 8C1
- Memories Of Darkness 10U2
- Galadriel, Lady Redeemed 10R11
- Mordor Fiend 10C91
- Final Account 11C31
- Strange-Looking Men 11R100
- Demoralized 11U114
- New Chapter 13U154
- Madril, Defender of Osgiliath 15R64
- Bill Ferny, Agent Of Saruman 15R72
- Mountain-Troll 15R112
- Shadowfax, Greatest of the Mearas 17R24
- Orkish Lackey 17C80
- Prized Lagan 18U110
- Doorway to Doom 18U134
- Mithlond 18U136
- Steward's Tomb 18U139
- The One Ring, The Great Ring 19P1
- Ulaire Nertea, Dark Horseman 19P38

Courtyard Parapet & Orkish Smith are autorized.


Conditions in Standard don't survive for a long time , & 4 Brute is better than 4 Spearman or 4 Ambushers .

[TheJord]

That is a horrible X-list... Nertea, Dark Horseman is not X-list worthy, neither is Orkish Lackey, the 3 sites or Prized Lagan.

For Lackey, you said conditions dont last long in Standard, so why ban him!?

Prized Lagan is meta-specific and hurts Forestguls most, but they still hurt! And most of the time they add threats.

The sites I cant understand why you would X them.

Nertea, Dark Horseman is meta-specific and Bill Ferny is shutdown by LOADS of decks, anyone running Thorongil can end him.

Sorry, I'm really struggling to hide my frustration at this list

[Thranduil]

It's an interesting choice, actually. I disagree with the sites and a few others, but it's interesting to see how different places go for different things. How official is that X-list?

Thranduil

[Gate Troll]

Agent of Saruman? X-listed? Madness! Same with the Great Ring. And those X-listed sites? Why?
Sites hurt both players so X-listing seems unnecessary. 

[Enola]

This x-list is the actual official Standard French x-list.



Calm down people ,


Orkish Lackey : Because Orkish Smith is autorized, you could wound so easily any unbound companion in Maneuver  .

Prized Lagan could be played in every culture, so Forestzguls, Uruk Hunters, Wargs are broken.


By redundancy in Pathfinding,
-> Mithlond, who wants to play mass wounds ?? -> out of meta

-> Doorway to Doom + Steward's Tomb : Evil Men archery works now so well, we have to x-list them


Nertea could be assigned directly on Ring-Bearer,
in fact this minion rules too good in Forest Zguls or Sense of Obligation deck.


You're wrong Aragorn doesn't keep the Ring-Bearer safe, Bold Easterling & Courageous Easterling could get the job .


The Great Ring : too easy with burden removal like Hobbits.




Some cards could be changed but I think this kind of x-list is necessary.

[Thranduil]

Same with the Great Ring.

The Great Ring is obviously broken and should be X-ed or have errata.

And those X-listed sites? Why?
Sites hurt both players so X-listing seems unnecessary. 

The problem with those sites is that they don't hurt both players. You can make sure, for example, that Doorway to Doom always hits a fellowship on their first move and that your fellowship never moves to it (Third of the Nine Riders, for example) so that it hits their fellowship each time for 2 wounds and nothing else. Those 3 sites are all rather good, but I'm not sure I would have X-ed them...

Thranduil

[TheJord]

The X-list is for preventing unstoppable combo's, look at Expanded it stops Fruit Loops, Fiend, Infinite Gandalf... real harsh decks.

X'ing poxy cards like Dark Horseman is what has screwed this game over.

Lackey shouldnt be banned, unless Hate was banned. Hate seems easier to pull off to me. And Orkish Smith is X'd!

AND THE FREAKING POINT OF FERNY, AOS IS TO GET HIM ON THE RB!!!!

I would just not bother with Hunters block altogether

EDIT: Sorry enola I'm not angry at you! Keep posting...

[SomeRandomDude]

Ferny is NOT broken for crying out loud. Any deck that packs good condition removal wipes out half the deck. And hello, Ferny only slaughters decks that deal strictly with strength, which all suck anyways. Other decks, you need to slip a Ferny through whatever they've got, read, not that easy.

This seems top be a "Ban everything that kills Gondor" format. I, for one, was glad that Gondor didn't slaughter everything any more.

[Enola]

No, the x-list is the for making the meta balanced and preventing NPE.

We try to have the best diversity of decks in this format.


The x-list is voted before each big tournament when it is necessary to stop some killing-meta deck.


We autorize Orkish Smith, so Lackey is really dangerous (a minion with 2 vita & which is able to direct wound easily in Maneuver, it's broken).
Hate is an event and you can't take it from your discard pile.



In the FC 2006, some players were over all decks with a Ferny kill, it could be a real NPE in too many cases.

Ferny is NOT broken for crying out loud.
This seems top be a "Ban everything that kills Gondor" format. I, for one, was glad that Gondor didn't slaughter everything any more.

You're wrong, the easiest way to tank Ferny is Gondor with Footman's armor or Spirit of the White Tree.

[Gil-Estel]

but why then ban Ferny...he is a nice challenge to almost every deck

[TheJord]

If everyone was playing Ferny kill decks why werent you preparing for them...? Ferny is too easy to stop, I had to completely rethink Ferny by pairing him with Coldly Still and Driven from the Plains as everyone prepares for his beatdown aspect.

A few other players and myself find this behaviour very detrimental to the game. I admit Decipher lost the plot at the end ie Frenzy of Arrows, but I think they left the game in the best way to make it challenging. The only thing I dont agree with is R-listing Orkish Smith in Open, seems pointless

And WHY THE F has Mountain-troll and Shadowfax, GotM been X-d!?

[Enola]

We try to find a new stability in this format.


If we autorize Orkish Smith, we have to x-list Mountain-Troll & Lackey (it's a choice ).

Shadowfax, GotM ??  -> you really wanna play corrupt?


The problem with Ferny isn't that we can't prevent him, but the diversity of decks is going to take a real blow .

[Gate Troll]

The problem with Ferny isn't that we can't prevent him, but the diversity of decks is going to take a real blow .

How does it affect diversity?

[TheJord]

Mountain-troll got X-d because of Rallying Orc/Demoralized, and Demoralized hit the X-list for it. Mountain-troll is lot less effective now, I cant see him being X-list worthy

Shadowfax is shut down by threat decks, possession discard

I am gonna stop posting about this... needless to say I feel several of those choices are a joke, I hope you take no offence Enola, but whoever makes these decisions in France needs to enjoy the game, not break its back.

[Enola]

Gondor would be omnipresent if Ferny stays....


Are you really playing possession discard in your Corruption deck  ?? I don't think so...


Try to have a format which has a real stability and no auto-win deck, and you see how easy it is....

It's not a joke, people spent a long time on it and you can enjoy the game easier if you don't have any NPE.


Think about it,

[NappyKorn]

Their are other cultures that can handle Ferny not just Gondor. I won't go into it. Like TheJord, I think some of these x-listing are a bit sad. Glad I don't play in France and if a PC gets going and the French own the decisions I guess I will be forced to burn all my cards and play Pokemon .

[Gate Troll]

Gondor would be omnipresent if Ferny stays....


Are you really playing possession discard in your Corruption deck  ?? I don't think so...


Try to have a format which has a real stability and no auto-win deck, and you see how easy it is....

It's not a joke, people spent a long time on it and you can enjoy the game easier if you don't have any NPE.


Think about it,

So, basically you want a vanilla-style game with no perks and no strategies that are remotely hard to counter.
By the same token all [men] archery should go down the drain, along with countless other strategies. 

Also, you keep saying you autorized Orkish Smith. What does 'autorize' mean?

[Enola]

Glad I don't play in France...blabla...

Very intelligent post. Thanks .

So, basically you want a vanilla-style game with no perks and no strategies that are remotely hard to counter.
By the same token all [men] archery should go down the drain, along with countless other strategies. 

Also, you keep saying you autorized Orkish Smith. What does 'autorize' mean?

Not at all, there are still really big decks, but we try to limit the condition :"all against one deck because this deck rules too good in the actual meta".

Decipher doesn't communicate any x-list after TD and Age's End, we have to do something....


Autorize (it's French sorry ) = legal

[TheJord]

Decipher doesn't communicate any x-list after TD and Age's End, we have to do something....

Erm T&D cards got errata... Frenzy of Arrows, Gothmog etc

[SomeRandomDude]

Glad I don't play in France...blabla...

Very intelligent post. Thanks .

Misquoting a small excerpt from somebody's post to make them look like an idiot is not called for. He makes legit points.

So, basically you want a vanilla-style game with no perks and no strategies that are remotely hard to counter.
By the same token all [men] archery should go down the drain, along with countless other strategies. 

Also, you keep saying you autorized Orkish Smith. What does 'autorize' mean?

Not at all, there are still really big decks, but we try to limit the condition :"all against one deck because this deck rules too good in the actual meta".

Hello? Ferny is perhaps one of the least played decks in standard! (I mean real standard, not this fake standard). Why? Because he's easy to counter! Sure, he's a rock, paper, scissors type of deck. Some decks he'll mutilate, chop up and spit out. Others, its a free walk to 9 on the adventure path. He's unpredictable and unreliable, but he's a blast.

If someone figures out the meta where they play and builds a ferny deck, good for them! Don't ban Ferny because your decks suck. Decipher expanded quite drastically on how the game was played, initiative, flat-out minion discarding, site revolution, enhanced wounding strategies, etc. If you don't like it, play fellowship block, don't try to make standard into something its not.

Decipher doesn't communicate any x-list after TD and Age's End, we have to do something....


Autorize (it's French sorry ) = legal

[Enola]

Sorry but your posts seem to be more and more aggressive  .


Ban Ferny was a difficult choice. I see that he has a real fan club here  , but this choice was voted by few people. I democratically support this ban, while knowing it's debatable.


This X-list is constantly changing to find a new stability.

T&D cards got errata... Frenzy of Arrows, Gothmog etc

Yeah, by the way the Frenzy of Arrows errata was really well thought...

Errata doesn't keep the game well structured, you autorize :
- New Chapter & Erkenbrand's Horn, taking out all cards in first site isn't Lotr game
- The Great Ring, explain me how you swarm the RB ??
...

[macheteman]

ok guys, you've given enola enough crap already, so just shut up and let the french do whatever the heck they want. i would hate to see a contributing memeber like enola leave just because you aren't a fan of his x-list.

[Mc Tono]

let the french do whatever the heck they want.

My thoughts exactly, as I mentioned earlier somewhere else on this forum: from now on every gathering will have their own rules. I say: the one who organises (a tournament) decides. Don`t like the format?--> don`t play it.
This way many new formats will be invented, which makes the game even more interesting I think.

I can hardly wait to play G-E in a capture the flag game "par example" (that`s french)

[SomeRandomDude]

ok guys, you've given enola enough crap already, so just shut up and let the french do whatever the heck they want. i would hate to see a contributing memeber like enola leave just because you aren't a fan of his x-list.

Legit point. Apologies.

[Gate Troll]

ok guys, you've given enola enough crap already, so just shut up and let the french do whatever the heck they want. i would hate to see a contributing memeber like enola leave just because you aren't a fan of his x-list.

True. Its not like Enola wrote the X-list anyway...

[Gil-Estel]

McTono...will you join me in a flag-capturing journey next week? I would be honored.....

[Enola]

Thanks for stopping this dialogue of the deaf,

we just have two different points of view about the control of the meta.


It wasn't really easy with my poor English .

"par example" (that`s french) ??

You're close , for example = par exemple

[FM]

And for the first time, I split the Topic after it was split from another one! The "language" bit is now on the Council of Cobra.

[lem0nhead]

Ok to chip in my 2 cents, well where do i begin...

Ferny does not need x-ing if your concern is fights with the RB. However i agree Nertea does. He stupid and requires no effort whereas Bill does.

Lackey does not need x-ing though i understand why you have done. The Jords argument of xing Hate in that case isnt valid as there are very few if not none at all ways of recursing sauron events whereas there are loads of ways of recursing lackey in many broken ways which leads me to say i cant believe you have taken the smith off the list. Thats mental. If i had to campaign for just one card in the entire of LOTR TCG to be x-ed id pick MD galadriel or orcish smith.

Prize lagan is one of the stupidest most broken cards D made. Absoutely no thought went into it at all let alone enough attention to actually be culturally enforced or limited. Its power is broken beyond belief and should be x-ed purely because D f-ed it up let alone its ability.

The sites. Well, they dont bother me either way so no comment.

I would, finally, agree with Thran as the Great Ring is the daftest ring created. So abusable.

[alehaak]

ok guys, you've given enola enough crap already, so just shut up and let the french do whatever the heck they want. i would hate to see a contributing memeber like enola leave just because you aren't a fan of his x-list.

You got a point.

Their are other cultures that can handle Ferny not just Gondor. I won't go into it. Like TheJord, I think some of these x-listing are a bit sad. Glad I don't play in France and if a PC gets going and the French own the decisions I guess I will be forced to burn all my cards and play Pokemon .

And you got a point too!
Totally agreed.

[Braindamagedcarebearsrock]

Our play group has own x-list but i would like to say couple things about this.

Bill ferny is not necesary since it doesnt kill  ringebearer with ring of doom or players who use ring of rings ringbearer should be strong enough. shadowplay is really cheap way to get rid of ferny. no travellers in this land aragorn, thorongil , or even legolas, woodland or emisary exerts him (legolas makes exert before archery phase begins)

Mountain-troll: unban it and ban smith. since standard has lots of condition hate and mountain-troll is only good answer against it.

Why the faithful stone is not in x-list ? it basicly kills evilman, and orc shadows +it can be played in multiple freeps like rohan,gondor and gandalf ? errata didn't make it less powerful since now shadow needs pool to get minions through = less minions. and its not unique.

[Elessar's Socks]

At least they were able to settle on something and get some hard data out of it.

In Expanded, I guess at the minimum I'd:

- Weaken Ithilien Blade decks. Probably just boot Madril, Defender of Osgiliath.

- Weaken Troll swarm decks. Probably errata the Keeper, if neither the Keeper nor the Wargs deserve to be X'ed by themselves, and combo banning isn't an option (not too sure about the idea myself).

- Ban the Erkenbrand's Horn / New Chapter combo. Somehow.

Though even with that said, it's only the last I'm really sure about, because there are so many things wrong with emptying the deck of Free Peoples cards, at site 2, using a loop. For the others, it'd be great to see what decks have actually been winning high-level tournaments.

[FingolfinFinwe]

This is good discussion.. Makes me start thinking that we should get the PC stuff going again.

[leokula]

Although I don't play in France, I'd be OK with most of the list. Think lackey is indeed ridiculous, I'd have no problems with seeing him banned.

The only ever banned card i really didn't accept or agreed was demoralized... it was so OK before mountain troll and rapid reload, and then all of a sudden it was broken... very sad. I'd easily ban rapid reload and mountain troll since no decks rely on them, while rallying orc and orc lurkers became plain useless without demoralized. I'd be ok with banning of combos like rapid reload + demoralized or new wargs + keyward too. Although it's not common with cardgames, it's not common that the producer of the game screws up in the end either.

Apart from that I think it's ok... shadowfax is indeed a bit crazy and I don't miss ferny a tiny bit. Prized legan is ridiculously worded, so it's a shame, cause not that bad of a card.

[Tonio]

Hello everyone (this is my first post here!)

Actually this X-list has been designed by a small group of experienced players (including Enola and myself) for the French LOTR Championship 2007. I wouldn't say it is the best, but we just tried to prevent NPE'S and overpowered cards. All players in the team didn't agree on all cards, and we had to vote to decide! (I remember Bill Ferny almost got off this list)

Making an X-list is quite difficult, but we thought we had to do it as Decipher gave up LOTR all of a sudden, leaving the game in a f*** mess with their 2 last extensions!

One last thing : Doorway to Doom and Steward's Tomb were added after the 2007 tournament, as the  archery deck seemed way too powerful (and almost a NPE). Right now, after the 2008 tournament, we are thinking about X-listing Courtyard Parapet too...

I will explain the reasons for X-listing some cards, feel free to post any comments so we can change our mind! (but i must confess that our group allready talked about it for a loooooong time )

Cheers,

Tonio

[Elrohir]

Hi,
I hate x-listed card, because you can do nothing with them. If a card is unsuitable, the text should be changed, like erratas. This may confuse players, so I suggested, Decipher should take back these missprinted copies, and distribute new one to those, who had send cards in. This would be fair.

I do not like doctoring on lists and cards, unless we have not forged an international comitee, which would work great with the most important nations.

I have to agree, that "Frenzy of Arrows" need an additional errata! But it should be accepted by everyone. For example: cost 1. Add one to minion archery total, +1 additional for each follower...

[Tonio]

But why the #$&*@! did French People X-List... 

Moutain-Troll : its ability to get as many minions as you want from the discard pile (provided that you have enough pool) was very dangerous. We had experienced a deck focused on this card and everyone agreed it was overpowered.

Bill-Ferny : him + 2 * Gathering Strength can kill many RB at very early sites, wich we thought was a NPE

The One Ring 19R : such a good protection against swarms! We thought everyone would play it and that it would kill swarming decks.

At last, we chose to ban lackey and make orkish smith legal in order to see more decks, as we thought that without the orkish smith the culture got crappy.

Tonio

[Tonio]

If a card is unsuitable, the text should be changed, like erratas.

Actually, the first choice we had to make was "X-listing or errating?". Both could work, but we thought it was simpler to make a X-list  :
- People could be unaware of our erratas ("but this is written on my card...")
- Designing the new texts can take a very long time...

Tonio

[TheJord]

I am amused you banned Ferny because he can overwhelm the RB, and then ban the Ring that could stop Ferny haha.

[Elrohir]

That is, why it is so difficult to work together. My opinion is, although the ring is very powerful, cards like cavern entrance prevent using it. Bye, bye, ringbearer...

But I am happy, there are still people, who want to make the game better! Do not stop!! 

Elrohir

[Gil-Estel]

But I really think these things should be arranged at a local level. I mean be honest, when do you play? Maybe online, but also with friends. If you play on a regular base, come to an agreement with your friends about certain cards. In my case, our common interest in playing makes the game balanced. What fun is it to have such a OP deck and win time after time....Playing lotr is all about creativity and spending quality time with friends for all I care