Author Topic: Other Ring-bearers (Read 10647 times)

Tempest123 · « **on:** January 30, 2009, 03:58:50 PM »

Boromir Bearer of Council text ,as you al know , ...at start of each skirmish add 3 burdens or wound him twice .
Anyway my question is if he has for example ring of rings can he put 2 burdens instead of those 2 wounds .

I tried to say to some ppl as far as I know that it can't be done cos adding 3 b or 2 w is the requirment that needs to be fulfilled but anyway I'm writing this just to double check .

TheJord · « **Reply #1 on:** January 30, 2009, 05:53:13 PM »

There is another thread regarding prevention with optional effects.

Basically, if you prevent one effect you must perform the other. Preventing his wounds with burdens would mean taking 2 burdens, then having to take the 3 burdens anyway.

Gil-Estel · « **Reply #2 on:** January 31, 2009, 01:33:25 AM »

But you're not preventing, not directly, it is just taking instead. I'd say this is allowed, but I'm not sure.

King89 · « **Reply #3 on:** January 31, 2009, 03:32:56 AM »

TJ is right.

Elrohir · « **Reply #4 on:** January 31, 2009, 03:41:38 AM »

If The Sapling prevents a wound of Boromirs drawback, you have to take burdens. Crazy...

But why do we have to take three burdens if we use the ring of rings?

King89 · « **Reply #5 on:** January 31, 2009, 03:54:45 AM »

Quote from: Elrohir on January 31, 2009, 03:41:38 AM

If The Sapling prevents a wound of Boromirs drawback, you have to take burdens. Crazy...

But why do we have to take three burdens if we use the ring of rings?

because, as thejord said, if you prevent one effect, you have to perform the other. and if you pull on the ring, you DO prevent an effect. it exactly the same with e.g. morgul brute: if the fp player decides to take the wound and prevents this wound, he or she has to take a burden.

i think there is somewhere a ruling in the rule book... but forgot where

TheJord · « **Reply #6 on:** January 31, 2009, 04:02:05 AM »

K89, you pretty much said it anyway, the ruling about optional effects and preventing one means doing the other, they use the Morgul Brute / Sapling of the White Tree example

Elrohir · « **Reply #7 on:** January 31, 2009, 04:04:15 AM »

Yes, but the one ring does not prevent anything.

FM · « **Reply #8 on:** January 31, 2009, 05:45:12 AM »

I'm still not very happy with the explanation they give, I think it's a huge flaw. For isntance, if the Ring-bearer CANNOT take wounds for any reason, THEN it'd work, you can't "choose" that option, it's not given to you. However, I fail to see why can't you choose an option and circunvent it. The Ring, for instance. You are not PREVENTING the wounds, you're actually TRANSFORMING them, you ARE taking the wounds, you just take them in the form of burdens. This ruligs is really really weird.

Elessar's Socks · « **Reply #9 on:** January 31, 2009, 06:02:54 AM »

Socks too has lost his orientation. Someone stop the spin cycle.

Quote

Some responses are performed when a described situation is "about to" happen. Typically, only one such response can be performed in a given situation, because its effect will "prevent" that situation or replace it with another effect "instead."

I think "instead" is not equivalent to "prevent." Otherwise, why not just write The Ring of Rings as "...add a burden to prevent this"? If the Ring-bearer is soaking up archery at Steward's Tomb, I think the Ring can still do its trick. The Ring isn't "preventing" (in game context) wounds... more like, converting them.

Here's the Morgul Destroyer / Sapling of the White Tree example that was brought up:

Quote

If something happens to prevent one effect which in turn would have prevented a second effect, the second effect is performed.

Morgul Destroyer is played.("When you play this minion, you may spot a Nazgûl to add 2 threats. The Free Peoples player may wound the Ring-bearer to prevent this.") The Free Peoples player wounds the Ring-bearer to prevent the threats from being added. The Free Peoples player then discards Sapling of the White Tree. ("Response: If a Man is about to take a wound, discard this artifact to prevent that.") Because Sapling has prevented the effect (a wound) that would have prevented Morgul Destroyer's effect, the threats are now added.

You could argue that "prevent" here is being used as a general term... but if you look at Morgul Destroyer, it all matches up perfectly with the game term. The Destroyer does NOT say "The Free Peoples player may wound the Ring-bearer instead."

Maybe there are other things to consider. But I don't think the Destroyer example proves that Boromir has to take the other 3 burdens. If anything, it seems that The Ring of Rings offers him a way out with only 2 burdens, converted from the 2 wounds.

Gil-Estel · « **Reply #10 on:** January 31, 2009, 06:08:19 AM »

Thank you...my point exactly

Kralik · « **Reply #11 on:** January 31, 2009, 08:20:28 AM »

Similarly... can Faramir, BoQ use the Ring of Rings for his wound gametext?

Gil-Estel · « **Reply #12 on:** January 31, 2009, 08:27:58 AM »

I don't see why not?

Elf_Lvr · « **Reply #13 on:** January 31, 2009, 08:32:12 AM »

I think the "instead" text is different than the "prevent" text. In that, for costs, a prevention causes the cost not to be paid, but doing something "instead" still pays the cost.

Thranduil · « **Reply #14 on:** February 02, 2009, 01:56:34 AM »

Quote from: Kralik on January 31, 2009, 08:20:28 AM

Similarly... can Faramir, BoQ use the Ring of Rings for his wound gametext?

That's a different issue which is not Morgul Brute related. If he's wearing the ring, then he HAS to take a burden instead of the wound.

Also, I think the Boromir case is different from Morgul Brute because the case of preventing one action and being forced to do the other only applies in the specific case of "Do X. You may do Y to prevent X." Bearer of Council does not have that, it's simply "Do X or Y". Similarly, if you had Ulaire Toldea, Winged Sentry winning a skirmish, the Free Peoples player can choose to exert a companion and play Strength of Spirit: this does not mean that the burden is added instead, because the exertion is not "preventing" anything. If, however, Winged Sentry was worded "... add a burden. The Free Peoples player may exert a companion to prevent that." then playing Strength of Spirit adds the burden because the exertion was to prevent the burden and if you haven't exerted, you haven't prevented anything.

Thranduil

Pepin The Breve · « **Reply #15 on:** February 02, 2009, 08:19:12 AM »

In fact the word add "X instead" is not equal to prevent. From the rulebook: "When a card uses the phrase "instead" or "instead of", the stated effect is replaced with a different effect. This does not mean that the original effect is prevented. If the second effect cannot happen for any reason, then the original effect occurs.".

So i guess it won´t fall in the "preventing" issue, and yes, you can add 2 burdens instead of 3.

leokula · « **Reply #16 on:** February 02, 2009, 08:26:53 AM »

Quote from: Thranduil on February 02, 2009, 01:56:34 AM

Quote from: Kralik on January 31, 2009, 08:20:28 AM
Similarly... can Faramir, BoQ use the Ring of Rings for his wound gametext?
That's a different issue which is not Morgul Brute related. If he's wearing the ring, then he HAS to take a burden instead of the wound.

Also, I think the Boromir case is different from Morgul Brute because the case of preventing one action and being forced to do the other only applies in the specific case of "Do X. You may do Y to prevent X." Bearer of Council does not have that, it's simply "Do X or Y". Similarly, if you had Ulaire Toldea, Winged Sentry winning a skirmish, the Free Peoples player can choose to exert a companion and play Strength of Spirit: this does not mean that the burden is added instead, because the exertion is not "preventing" anything. If, however, Winged Sentry was worded "... add a burden. The Free Peoples player may exert a companion to prevent that." then playing Strength of Spirit adds the burden because the exertion was to prevent the burden and if you haven't exerted, you haven't prevented anything.

Thranduil

That's not how strength of spirit works, otherwise you couldn't use it with Legolas, Greenleaf, Aragorn's Bow or Trust me as you once did. It merely says ur not placing any token for the exertion, it doesn't mean ur character didn't exert.

Thranduil · « **Reply #17 on:** February 02, 2009, 09:51:06 AM »

Quote from: leokula on February 02, 2009, 08:26:53 AM

Quote from: Thranduil on February 02, 2009, 01:56:34 AM
Quote from: Kralik on January 31, 2009, 08:20:28 AM
Similarly... can Faramir, BoQ use the Ring of Rings for his wound gametext?
That's a different issue which is not Morgul Brute related. If he's wearing the ring, then he HAS to take a burden instead of the wound.

Also, I think the Boromir case is different from Morgul Brute because the case of preventing one action and being forced to do the other only applies in the specific case of "Do X. You may do Y to prevent X." Bearer of Council does not have that, it's simply "Do X or Y". Similarly, if you had Ulaire Toldea, Winged Sentry winning a skirmish, the Free Peoples player can choose to exert a companion and play Strength of Spirit: this does not mean that the burden is added instead, because the exertion is not "preventing" anything. If, however, Winged Sentry was worded "... add a burden. The Free Peoples player may exert a companion to prevent that." then playing Strength of Spirit adds the burden because the exertion was to prevent the burden and if you haven't exerted, you haven't prevented anything.

Thranduil

That's not how strength of spirit works, otherwise you couldn't use it with Legolas, Greenleaf, Aragorn's Bow or Trust me as you once did. It merely says ur not placing any token for the exertion, it doesn't mean ur character didn't exert.

You're right.

Assume when I use the term Strength of Spirit, I mean a card that says "If a companion is about to exert, prevent that".

Thranduil

Gerontius · « **Reply #18 on:** February 03, 2009, 06:37:14 PM »

So if you have Armor on Boromir you have to add burdens?

Elessar's Socks · « **Reply #19 on:** February 03, 2009, 08:18:06 PM »

Quote from: The Old Took on February 03, 2009, 06:37:14 PM

So if you have Armour on Borimer you have to add burdens?

Yes. That's covered by a separate rule that says if an effect requires you to choose one of several actions, you have to choose the one you can fully perform, if possible. BoC with Armor cannot take wounds, so you'd have to add burdens. A very dangerous combination!

Tempest123 · « **Reply #20 on:** February 07, 2009, 06:12:30 AM »

All in all there is a diffrence with preventing with cards like sappling and not placing a token with intimidate or strength of spirit .
Anyway the big conclusion here is I think that decipher sux

Imrahil · « **Reply #21 on:** February 07, 2009, 08:59:39 AM »

So if I were to say, start Boromir, BoC with Arwen, Elven Rider, then equip him with Armor...could I assign him to a skirmish, prevent the first wound with Arwen's text, take the second wound, and thereby render him unable to take wounds until the end of the skirmish?

HawkeyeSPF · « **Reply #22 on:** February 07, 2009, 09:33:34 AM »

No; simply by bearing the Armor, Boromir must now take burdens instead of wounds at the start of the skirmish. Arwen's text could still apply if he were to be the target of Whirling Strike or if he lost the skirmish though.

Thranduil · « **Reply #23 on:** February 07, 2009, 10:25:20 AM »

Quote from: Tempest on February 07, 2009, 06:12:30 AM

All in all there is a diffrence with preventing with cards like sappling and not placing a token with intimidate or strength of spirit .
Anyway the big conclusion here is I think that decipher sux

Not quite. Intimidate "prevents" the wound. "Strength of Spirit" only prevents the placement of the exertion. The reason for the subtle difference is that if Strength of Spirit said "If a companion is about to exert, prevent that exertion" then you couldn't use it in conjunction with a special ability (like Greenleaf) because the cost will not have been paid (because it was prevented).

Thranduil

MuadDib85 · « **Reply #24 on:** October 21, 2009, 06:35:28 PM »

Interesting debate.

Doesn't the fact that the ring of rings gametext is a response have something to with the original question?

'At the start of each skirmish involving Boromir add three burdens or wound him twice'..

Choose to wound him twice, then as all responses are optional you should either be able to leave the 2 wounds or take 2 burdens instead or take 1 burden and 1 wound..
This is the way I would read it anyway..

On another note: If 2 saplings were in play couldn't you just discard them both to prevent any wounds at all?