.....

[DáinIronfoot]

To repost what I already posted elsewhere....

Aren't we, as Christians, called to hope for every man's salvation? To wish they would find Christ before they die? If nothing else, I think the probability that Jackson didn't is cause for grief, even if you thought he was a completely lost cause.

You and I are no better than Jackson, NB. There but by the grace of God go us. We are as black inside as he or anyone else, and if you think differently, then you don't know your scripture, my friend. We're good at seeing specks in other people's eyes and missing the telephone poles jammed in ours.

Again, I think the good old "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" really says it all, as does the story that spawned the phrase. If not that, then perhaps: "Deserves death! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement."

Were someone as vile as bin Laden to be brought to justice, then yes, I would likely post mostly positive things about it. But I would still lament he and his ilk and how lost they are. Their entire belief system built on lies and deceit. Even someone like bin Laden could still be saved. Paul was no worse, and look at how God turned HIS life around.

It has nothing to do with Jackson being famous, at least not to me.

[Kralik]

Thanks for the perspective, Dain.

[turin08]

Well done Dain thats great Theology. I'm glad at least one of the Christians here knows there own religion.

[Gil-Estel]

Amen, Dain.The murderer at the cross wasn't condemned by Jesus, he was welcomed in paradise for he saw who Jesus was.
And for the legal aspect, I can't recall Jackson being convicted for the allegations. But that is the least interesting part. Never let evil be the response in regards to evil, for that way evil always win. Let love love conquer evil.

[turin08]

Exactly. Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty. He was declared innocent of all charges.

[FM]

If the topic was about the perpetrator of 9/11 or the OKC bombing guy, then nobody would have had a problem with saying he deserved death. Or if Bin Laden had a heart attack, nobody would object to saying that he deserved it. Or if some other random person was raping kids and died, nobody would object to it.

But Michael Jackson's famous, so that somehow means that he's different from all the other child molesters and rapists out there?

Ahem, excuse me, but I, for one, would. And I couldn't care LESS about the sheer number of north-americans on the boards, I WOULD lock and delete innaproppriate posts. 9/11 was horrible, OKC was horrible, the CHARGES Michael Jackson had against him WERE horrible. Then again, from the three events cited, MJ is the only one that has been proven INNOCENT, cleared of all charges. And even if he had NOT been so, well, before wishing death to someone (or celebrating it), think about all the people who died that deserved to live (like, say, in Hiroshima?). Can you give them life? Then don't give death to the other half of the coin. Justice. Equallity. You know, the kind of stuff you'll need to learn going through Law School.

[sickofpalantirs]

Wait, they teach justice and equality in law school? They must not teach it very well

((apologies I couldn't resist FM ))


as for the actualy topic on hand michael jackson not equal to OKC, or 9/11.
Why, for, as FM said, the simple reason that he was ruled innocent.  If someone who had raped/molested children and had been convicted died, I would be a lot less likely to judge people for saying thank God he's dead.

[Elrohir]

Wait, they teach justice and equality in law school? They must not teach it very well

I agree, SOP. And I understand now why people reacted in the former topic so extremely. But Raping and to be juged innocent are two different things... Thank you all for reestablishing tranquilness.

Elrohir

[SomeRandomDude]

MJ is the only one that has been proven INNOCENT, cleared of all charges. And even if he had NOT been so, well, before wishing death to someone (or celebrating it), think about all the people who died that deserved to live (like, say, in Hiroshima?). Can you give them life? Then don't give death to the other half of the coin. Justice. Equallity. You know, the kind of stuff you'll need to learn going through Law School.

You put stock in what the American justice system says after Michael Jackson ADMITTED to having little boys sleep in his bed?

I know Scripture very well, having been in the church since birth, and I know that God is a God of justice as well as mercy, one thing that most Christians today have forgotten. There are harsh penalties for certain crimes in Scripture, especially when it comes to children. Does anyone remember Scripture about it being better for a millstone to be hung around your neck and to be thrown into the sea than to cause a child to stumble? Millstone, heart attack, they do the same thing.

I have absolutely no sympathy for child molesters. Knowing several people who were molested and seeing the damage it did to them, I stand by my opinion that every single person who molests a child deserves death and that child molestation is the most despicable and heinous crime, not excepting murder, and I think Michael Jackson's case shows that if the government will not mete out justice, God will.

[Gil-Estel]

I do understand your point NB, I really do. But remember the scripture as it is. Jesus said: "it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea." It were better. Not thou shall st hang a millstone round his neck. God is the judge, not we. I think earthly punishment should be about protection, setting an example, trying to bring people back on the right track, but not revenge.
Don't get me wrong, Childmolesters don't have my sympathy. If MJ would have had taken advantage of these children, he will be accounted responsible for it.

[SomeRandomDude]

And I was saying that he has been. I was also saying that it is government's responsibility not to show mercy, but to be just, and when government fails in its task, God will ensure justice is served.

[Kralik]

NB, I think it would best be careful to proclaim that MJ's death was a specific act of God's judgment. You can't speak for God, nor do you know with certainty all that is happening 'behind the scenes.'

There are cases when terrible things happen to good people, for example: the story of Job. His "friends" kept on accusing him of committing some heinous sin, yet it was not the case. And then we have passages such as Psalm 73 where Asaph laments, "Why do the wicked prosper, have such easy lives and not face judgment?" (quick summary - but Asaph eventually realizes that God will judge in the end) So remember Ecclesiastes 8:14 (NIV, pick your translation of choice):

There is something else meaningless that occurs on earth: righteous men who get what the wicked deserve, and wicked men who get what the righteous deserve. This too, I say, is meaningless.

I'm not at all saying that MJ was innocent, nor am I much concerned with US pop culture. But keep in mind that a humble spirit does not gloat at the downfall of another person, wicked though they may be.

17 Do not gloat when your enemy falls;
       when he stumbles, do not let your heart rejoice,
18 or the LORD will see and disapprove
       and turn his wrath away from him.

Job's assurance of his integrity:

29 "If I have rejoiced at my enemy's misfortune
       or gloated over the trouble that came to him-
30 I have not allowed my mouth to sin
       by invoking a curse against his life-

A few other passages along this theme that I could look up if you would like.

I think as Christians we must be humble and remember (thanks for the quote Dain), "but for the grace of God, there go I." It's not that we are better people than any of the evil people around us, but God has shown us grace to call us and change our hearts, undeserving though we are.

[sickofpalantirs]

Ah using Scripture Kralik, a quite-often forgotten part of Christian debate.