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Author Topic: Mount Doom  (Read 8421 times)

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July 06, 2009, 07:55:34 AM
Reply #15

Thranduil

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Re: Mount Doom
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2009, 07:55:34 AM »
Sites on the adventure path (and support areas) are active--good thing too, or cards like Lost in the Woods won't have as many keywords to spot. I guess the part I find strange is that Steward's Tomb and Mount Doom are both active, but "Tomb rules" are in effect only while the fellowship is there, while "Mount Doom rules" are in effect even if the fellowship never sets foot upon it. However, "You cannot replace Mount Doom - EVER!" (...or any other sites in the same region) is a whole lot cleaner than the alternative.
The reason is because the default for sites is "only happens when the fellowship is here". But, Mount Doom says "Until the end of the game" which is why it is always in effect, because it specifies.

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July 07, 2009, 03:29:03 AM
Reply #16

Olorin

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Re: Mount Doom
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2009, 03:29:03 AM »
thanxxx!

Yeah, Mount Doom is a very interesting card indeed.
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July 09, 2009, 04:50:43 PM
Reply #17

jdizzy001

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Re: Mount Doom
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2009, 04:50:43 PM »
So, barring steward's tomb or the site that wounds your characters when you move to it, what good does restricting site replacement do?  I never understood the value of Mount Doom.
Well, apart from the fact of being a mountain underground battleground, which is a very powerful combination of keywords, it also prevents your opponent from doing silly things like Neekerbreekers' and such things. If you see that your opponent is continually replaying these annoying sites like Caras Galadhon or Crags of Emyn Muil, then you can put Mount Doom on the table to stop them doing it.

Thranduil

I thought you had to play 9 different sites?  How can someone play the same site twice?
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July 09, 2009, 05:05:40 PM
Reply #18

ephen

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Re: Mount Doom
« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2009, 05:05:40 PM »
when the fellowship moves you place a site like neekerbreekers' bog and they have to exert, then you use something like ulaire nelya, totnr to replace the site with another one of your sites, putting neekerbreekers' bog back in your adventure deck so you can place it next time they move.

July 09, 2009, 05:10:29 PM
Reply #19

jdizzy001

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Re: Mount Doom
« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2009, 05:10:29 PM »
So when you replace a site, you stick the previous site back in your adventure deck?!  How did I miss that ruling.  THAT IS SO AWESOME!
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July 09, 2009, 05:23:12 PM
Reply #20

Elessar's Socks

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Re: Mount Doom
« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2009, 05:23:12 PM »
Too awesome. :P I've always thought it's kind of funny that such an iconic location became a counter card, but at least it's a good one.

July 09, 2009, 05:24:41 PM
Reply #21

jdizzy001

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Re: Mount Doom
« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2009, 05:24:41 PM »
By the way, where can I find that ruling.  Is it in the officail rules thread?
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July 09, 2009, 08:14:12 PM
Reply #22

Elessar's Socks

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Re: Mount Doom
« Reply #22 on: July 09, 2009, 08:14:12 PM »
You mean for site manipulation?

Quote from: site
Some cards allow a player to play the next site on the adventure path at times when the fellowship is not moving. These may be used even when the next site is already there. In such cases, the new site replaces the old one; put the old site back in its owner's adventure deck. The new site takes the same site number the old site had, so that there is always only one site 1 in play, one site 2, and so on. When a site is replaced, all cards played on or stacked on the old site are moved to the new site.
Nelya TotNR switches the fellowship's current site but the principle is the same; the replaced site goes back in its owner's adventure deck.

July 10, 2009, 12:41:06 PM
Reply #23

jdizzy001

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Re: Mount Doom
« Reply #23 on: July 10, 2009, 12:41:06 PM »
I found what i was looking for, thanks.
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April 01, 2021, 07:57:23 PM
Reply #24

Phallen Cassidy

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Re: Mount Doom
« Reply #24 on: April 01, 2021, 07:57:23 PM »
Looking through the forums, this is the closest thing to a conclusive discussion about Mount Doom that I could find. Unfortunately, I think they landed on the wrong spot -- Elessar's Socks had it right the first time. Clocking in at almost 12 years this is, without a doubt, my greatest necromancy feat. Beat that, Sauron! Here's my understanding of how the card works:

Quote from: Comprehensive Rules 4.0
active
During your turn, only these cards in play are active:

    sites on the adventure path,
    sites in any player's support area,
    your Free Peoples cards,
    your copy of The One Ring, and
    your opponents' Shadow cards.

...

Sites are always active. A site's game text cannot be used unless the fellowship is there, although some cards may copy and use that game text.

While Mount Doom is always active, until its game text is used (the fellowship is there) sites in the region *can* be replaced. This means if all players are at site 3, you can't use Traveled Leader to put Mount Doom at sites 1 or 2 and lock the rest of the region in place. Likewise, if a player uses Pathfinder to play Mount Doom in the regroup phase and doesn't move to it, the next player can still replace it (and any other site in the region) until a fellowship is there.

The Steward's Tomb example is a good one. We all know that it would be insane if that game text was active all the time, but there's nothing in the rules that makes an exception for Mount Doom. After all, it doesn't say "While the Fellowship is at this site..." (although Streets of Bree does, for no reason at all). That Mount Doom says "Until the end of the game" specifies how long the text applies after it has been used, the same as any other game text. Relatedly, this is why Harrowdale's text still applies if the Free Peoples begins their turn on it and moves to another site: it was used when the Fellowship started their turn at Harrowdale. It would not apply if the Shadow player uses Ulaire Toldea, Eight of the Nine Riders and played Harrowdale as the next site (for whatever reason) because no Free Peoples would be there to use the text.

Sites are unique in that it's possible for them to be in play without their text being used. If the sites themselves weren't always active then you wouldn't be able to spot any site other than the current one. A lot of good Lost in the Woods would do then! But that doesn't mean the game text is always active.

April 02, 2021, 07:10:51 AM
Reply #25

Tbiesty

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Re: Mount Doom
« Reply #25 on: April 02, 2021, 07:10:51 AM »
That all makes sense, and I agree.
If we don't question the intent the card designer meant to have the cards do, and interpret them strictly "as written", then yes, this is correct.

In later sets, there were some cases where intent vs rules were not matched up and had to be address via clarification/CRD. (e.g.  Nurn).
That's why, for me, Harrowdale just feels like it was a wording oddball. As worded, does the card designer really intend for this site to have a persistent triggering effect after the fellowship moves from it? That would be brand new territory. I just don't know. All other cards that cause a minion to be unable to gain fierce until the regroup phase, refer to "until the regroup phase" as how long the minion cannot gain fierce.  By putting, "Until the regroup phase,..." on Harrowdale, did the designer intentionally mean that the persistent effect of causing a minion to lose fierce and being unable to gain fierce until the regroup phase should also persist? This would be the only time a site does something like that. But maybe it actually was intentional, and that is precisely why it was worded that way.

My view on this is based on whether we think the card was worded exactly according to the intent.
1) Yes, the designer worded it "Until the regroup phase, each minion skirmishing a [Rohan] companion loses fierce and cannot gain fierce." because he or she explicitly wanted both the effect and the inability to gain fierce to persist until the regroup phase.
2) No, the designer actually meant "Each minion skirmishing a [Rohan] companion loses fierce and cannot gain fierce until the regroup phase." and the existing wording was written up and proofed without realizing the difference. Oversights happen.

I personally think that #2 is more likely and fits with how all the other previously created sites worked.  However, we don't have the evidence, only speculation, so if we want to go with #1 in the absence of that evidence, that is fine. That's one of those things a PC could decide on, and provide its reasons for doing so.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2021, 07:27:03 AM by Tbiesty »

April 02, 2021, 01:09:41 PM
Reply #26

TelTura

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Re: Mount Doom
« Reply #26 on: April 02, 2021, 01:09:41 PM »
Either way, all cards with such a dichotomy between their wording and their "intent" should have their game text (and implementation) altered to match one or the other.  There's no reason in this day and age to play musical semantics. 
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April 03, 2021, 06:04:05 AM
Reply #27

Phallen Cassidy

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Re: Mount Doom
« Reply #27 on: April 03, 2021, 06:04:05 AM »
I don't see any dichotomy between the wording and intent of Harrowdale, I think that #1 is the way to read the card and the way it was intended. It's not the only one either: in addition to Mount Doom, Steps of Edoras persists (as well as the phase action on Rohirrim Road). Why is so outlandish for a site to negatively affect minions for an extended duration as opposed to positively affect companions or other sites in the region?

There are many cards that do something unique. Some people think (or perhaps just wish) that Birthday Present wasn't intended to work with only one event in the discard pile, or that Savagery to Match Their Numbers wasn't intended to carry the strength boost to the regroup phase, or that Neekerbreekers' Bog wasn't intended to exert minions. Birthday Present in particular shows that Decipher was more than willing to lean into their rules to achieve certain effects and the 11th hour errata in the last CRD shows that Decipher was still capable of changing cards to line up with the intent behind them.

This, along with the fact that the card is from set 11 and not set 17, makes it seem unlikely to me that there is any divide between intent and effect. Where I can say there may be a divide is when looking at edge cases; Decipher intended for Corsair Marauder's text to be usable if he gets killed upon being played, but gave it up when they saw that doing so broke the rules. Swiftly and Softly may be intended to prevent all wounds if the Hobbit took one before the event was played, but that's not how the card is worded. Arguing that Decipher intended this card to work differently in mainstream use is more of an uphill battle from where I stand.