Shadowplay

[Elessar's Socks]

I've thought that if game text is triggered, then the text is resolved (via the action procedure) regardless of whether the card is still in play. This would explain how the Marauder can be ordered like Toldea and yet still discard possessions. However it seems that the example with Cave Troll's Chain shoots this down.

So under what conditions, if any, can actions be resolved even if the originating card is no longer in play? How about costs: if Enquea exerts (exhausting himself) and Unheeded responds to kill him, is the wound from Enquea still placed?

[Elgar]

I've thought that if game text is triggered, then the text is resolved (via the action procedure) regardless of whether the card is still in play. This would explain how the Marauder can be ordered like Toldea and yet still discard possessions. However it seems that the example with Cave Troll's Chain shoots this down.

There's some abiguity (or semantics take your pick) in how we've been arguing, but this is my understanding. 

A card being "triggered" just means that its condition for use has been met.  Manditory actions that are triggered are then performed by the FP.  Then, using normal action procedure, optional actions are taken.  All of these actions can change the game state, causing other triggers to happen or remove cards with said trigger from play.

For example, say the FP has a card that say "at the start of skirmish, you may discard this card to discard a minon assigned to bearer."  and a minion with another "at the start of the skirmish" optional action.  The FP can choose to have his action to happen first, and then the action on the minion can't happen because the minion with the action is no longer in play at a time when the SP can use the action.

So under what conditions, if any, can actions be resolved even if the originating card is no longer in play? How about costs: if Enquea exerts (exhausting himself) and Unheeded responds to kill him, is the wound from Enquea still placed?

Yes.  Becasue the action was started, you must finish the action.  (additionally (and sligtly unrelated) the cost was payed, so the effect happens.)

[ephen]

What happens is Shagrat, CoCU is wounded and killed, he has lost the skirmish but is he not in play to place the wound?

[ephen]

It seems that if the LoM example works that the cave troll's would too.

[Elrohir]

What happens is Shagrat, CoCU is wounded and killed, he has lost the skirmish but is he not in play to place the wound?

He places the exertion before wounds of loosing skirmishes are placed. Treebeard, Enraged Shepherd exerts minions too, before wounds caused by winning a skirmish are placed.

[Elessar's Socks]

For example, say the FP has a card that say "at the start of skirmish, you may discard this card to discard a minon assigned to bearer."  and a minion with another "at the start of the skirmish" optional action.  The FP can choose to have his action to happen first, and then the action on the minion can't happen because the minion with the action is no longer in play at a time when the SP can use the action.

To clarify this further, are the cards triggering at the same time, but resolved at different times, or actually triggering at different times? See, I've been thinking it was the former, so "action triggered -> action resolved" sounded a lot like "costs paid -> effects resolved."

Anyway, however the details of that are nailed down, that still seems to leave the issue with the Marauder. I would order it the same as Toldea, which means he can be killed before his text resolves--but his text should resolve anyway. I am pretty weirded out.

[ephen]

What happens if Shagrat, CoCU is killed by LoI or something like that, is what I meant Eowyn would have won the skirmish and Shagrat lost it, but does he not get to place his exertion?

[HawkeyeSPF]

Before cards are placed in the discard pile (due to being killed in a skirmish), you check for triggers to either winning or losing the skirmish - first mandatory, then optional if any still exist.

Shagrat's text is an optional triggered response to losing a skirmish, so unless something blanks his gametext, he will be able to exert a character before being placed in the discard pile.

[Elgar]

Before cards are placed in the discard pile (due to being killed in a skirmish), you check for triggers to either winning or losing the skirmish - first mandatory, then optional if any still exist.

Shagrat's text is an optional triggered response to losing a skirmish, so unless something blanks his gametext, he will be able to exert a character before being placed in the discard pile.

If he were to be killed by a wound because he lost his skirmish I would agree with you.  The determination of winning or losing a skirmish (based off of strength) happens before wounds are assigned.

However, I disagree with this specific example, because Shagrat is removed (killed) from the skirmish before the skirmish is resolved.  In this case, (where Eowyn wounds and kills the minions before skirmish resolution) Eowyn would be the winning character, and there would be no losing characters.

Edit: Looking at the comp rule book, I was wrong about the no losing characters.
"Also, any character removed during his or her skirmish is a losing character, even if that character's side eventually wins. That character is not wounded (or overwhelmed) when the skirmish resolves."

In this case, I would amend my initial post.  I still don't think that Shagrat would exert a character, in the same sense that he is dead before his optional triggered action can be taken (similar to the cave troll with chain ruling)

[ephen]

Seems hard to understand that there would be no losing character. If Gleaming Spires Will Crumble is in play does LoI killing minions not discard it?

[Elessar's Socks]

Any character removed during his skirmish is a losing character, even if that side eventually ends up winning. If LoI kills Shagrat with her ability, then Shagrat is a losing character; likewise if she kills your Orc, then GSWC will be discarded.

In the specific case of a character being killed before strength has been totaled, I would think that actions triggered by a character being killed happen before actions triggered by winning/losing the skirmish (otherwise you'd be responding to the effect before the cause). But this also leaves the awkward situation of Shagrat needing to trigger before he hits the discard pile. So does he wait for all the "kill" triggers to resolve first, respond with his "losing" trigger before any "kill" triggers, or something else?

[jdizzy001]

I think his text would be null and void because he was sent to the discard pile before the skirmish was resolved. 

[ephen]

Seems to me that either I get to exert with Shagrat and lose the GSWC or neither happens. Just doesn't seem like that cave troll's chain ruling is correct.

[Elessar's Socks]

How about this:

If an effect has a trigger, its source card must be in play for the effect to resolve.
Exception: If a card has an effect that triggers when it is discarded (or in the case of a character, when he or she is discarded or killed), the effect still resolves, following the action procedure.

Example 1: Cave Troll's Chain. If an exhausted Cave Troll bearing Cave Troll's Chain takes its last wound during the archery phase, the Chain cannot be used to wound an archer companion because the Chain is discarded before its effect would resolve.

Example 2: Corsair Marauder. Same result as above. If the Marauder is killed before his effect resolves, the effect would not resolve.

There seems to be a contradiction in the 8/13/07 CRD between the "playing a card" and "void" entries. The "void" entry says a non-site card remains in the void until all of its effects have resolved, and then it's placed in play (or in the discard pile if it's an event). The "playing a card" entry says a non-event card is placed in play (step 3) before responses to the playing of the card happen (step 4). While the card is in the void, the entry also limits actions to examining the card, meeting requirements, and paying costs (steps 1, 2, and 3, respectively). Since the "playing a card" entry is more detailed that's what I went with.

However, if the Marauder is to work like Decipher intended, then an additional step can be created between steps 3 and 4:

3.1. If The Card has game text on it that triggers "When you play..." The Card, it happens now.

Note that other responses or triggered actions that respond to the playing of The Card still happen in step 4.

Example 3: Shagrat, Captain of Cirith Ungol. Same result as above. If Shagrat is killed during a skirmish before strength has been totaled, his effect would not resolve.

[jdizzy001]

How about this:


Example 3: Shagrat, Captain of Cirith Ungol. Same result as above. If Shagrat is removed during a skirmish before strength has been totaled, his effect would not resolve.

that makes sense