Printable proxies

[chompers]

One of the biggest problems actually getting new players to play the game is out-of-print sets. I would like to run a tournament, but where do you start when each playing format of the game has large chunks of cards that are hard to get, or worse still, simply unavailable.

Allowing new players to print and play with proxy cards may assist in reviving the game using real cards.  Bringing new players to the game should increase the demand for cards which will increase the value of your collections, but more importantly, give you more people to play against and if we are really lucky some sort of organised play.

Printable proxies can be achieved in many different ways, but it seems logical to start with FoTR block since this is about new players. Here are some ways that i can think of.
1) Print the preconstructed starter decks from FoTR block (if you can't get access to any).
2) Print selected cards from RotEL (Out-Of-Print) to support FoTR block (such as all sites and common cards).
3) Print selected cards from FoTR block (such as all sites and common cards).

Star Trek CCG is currently allowing the printing of some cards, and the impact is mostly positive, as the player base continues to expand.

If you feel inclined, vote in the poll. If there is not a response that suits you, post your ideas here.

[Kenddrick]

I voted for "Print proxies for the starter-decks".

Ranofer has done a pretty good job with the starter deck pdfs. Pity he has only got one made. Let me see if I can upload it for you guys to download and take a look.

To me, starter decks are the best way to introduce the game to new players. Plus, now that there are printable proxies, we can actually give them the "starter decks".

[sharkey]

Print Proxies galore is my vote. We need to get tons of people playing!

[HawkeyeSPF]

I would like to go on record as "not being for" printed proxies, until which time Decipher gives a green light.

If/when that ever happens, I'm torn, to be honest. The cards are out there (more for some sets than others), it's just a matter of finding them. Once we get more people playing the game, availability in the secondary market is bound to pick up and make it easier to find whatever you're looking for.

[sharkey]

But we have to make it accesable and cheap for new players... second-hand market costs a lot. I think about 1/2 of the amount of cards that existed at the Age's End expansion are here today.

[Dogbert]

I would like to go on record as "not being for" printed proxies, until which time Decipher gives a green light.

That won't happen. LotR is a defunct game as far as Decipher is concerned.

[sharkey]

Umm... they have said otherwise, I believe?

[Kenddrick]

Big D has said they will consider the LotR TCG PC. Which could mean funds, templates for us to use. Let's hope it comes true.

[sharkey]

Fingers crossed! I know lots of upcoming new players, so there is a future!

[Ranofer]

Just saw this post.  I swear you guys are weird   almost a week goes by without anything new and then bam like 8 new topics and a bunch of stuff to talk about

As for what Kenddrick said, I did indeed do the Aragorn starter.  I took the original copy of the "free" starters that Decipher put out at the beginning and got better scans.

http://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B_TJdQjMZa1kNzJhMTFkZDYtNGZjZS00ZWFlLThiOGQtMzIxMjAxOWJjM2Y1&hl=en

Download that PDF and you'll see what I mean.  Throw it in a color printer, or better even a Laser printer, and you have a demo deck you can use to show people how to play.

I like the idea of proxies in moderation or non-tournament play.  The cards are out there, and people that want the fancy foil, or the tengwal script cards will have to go find the real ones.  I actually don't even approve of doing EVERY starter deck.  I think the starters from Fellowship, Towers, and Return, is all I think needs to be done.  We're giving them a taste, not a complete game

[Kenddrick]

Cheers for Ranofer! Let's hope he does the starters from Fellowship, Towers, and Return!

[sharkey]

Awesome!

[Dogbert]

Umm... they have said otherwise, I believe?

Considering allowing a PC is basically functionally turning over all decisions, including decisions like tournament-legal proxies, to the PC. i.e., the PC would make that decision, not Decipher.

[HawkeyeSPF]

The PC would make that decision WITH Decipher, not alone. The game is still their property, after all.

[Kenddrick]

So it appears we are using proxied FotR starters? Can we form a committee to do this "officially"...or do we even need to?

[Cw0rk]

I voted "other" and here is my explanation...

I don't care about playing real card games anymore so printing cards would be useless for me. Playing games on GCCG is what I like to do and if you think this would bring more people into the game and eventually on GCCG, go ahead. I think there are easier ways to bring new people online and investing time into printing cards may not be the best way to do it. How do you plan to print those cards? If you don't use a high quality printing technique, new players will look at how the cards look and will have a negative perception of the game right from the start.

Otherwise, printing the cards can be useful only on a local or regional level for beginners. If you want more people to play real-life games that may be an OKAY thing to do. But like ketthejet wrote in another topic (correct me if I'm wrong), why not lend some cards or just give some of the commons or uncommons or rare you don't need?

By the way... these choices are biased.

I don't want new players - I like to play by myself
No proxies - my common cards and sites are too valuable

[chompers]

Wow - i didn't think i'd get much response on this topic.

Making pdfs from images on this site is pretty easy. I do it all the time for Star Trek. I print using 280gsm A4 photo paper (i get about 70 sheets for $30 AUD), and 9 cards per sheet. The resolution of the final print is marginally less than a high-res pdf. The text on the card is very easy to read.

In the end, you probably don't want the printable cards to look too good, because you probably want to encourage new players to make an effort to find real versions of them.

The issue is creating an organised play circuit that is accessable to new players. Movie block might work, but there are large chunks of cards that are very hard to obtain, making an unfair playing field. As for FoTR block, it is just one set RotEL that they need to get, and if we can help with printable proxies, it may aid new players getting into the game.

I suggest that movie block is left for advance players, with no printable proxies. Printable proxies could be allowed for FotR block only, and for whatever cards (be it starter decks, or selected cards from RotEL or whatever).

I will make up a pdf from images on this site and get it to you kenddrick for the website.

As for legalities ?? Ideally it would be nice to obtain permission from Decipher, but we are not having too much success moving forward with this. I don't think random players printing proxies if going to incur the wrath of Decipher - how will they track it?

[chompers]

I voted "other" and here is my explanation...
I don't care about playing real card games anymore so printing cards would be useless for me. Playing games on GCCG is what I like to do and if you think this would bring more people into the game and eventually on GCCG, go ahead.  

This is about new players, as an existing player you could ask yourself:
* Will this benefit me in the long run (then you may vote yes to proxies)
* Will it affect me in a negative way (then you may vote no for proxies)
* Will it have no effect on me (then you may vote yes for proxies)

How do you plan to print those cards? If you don't use a high quality printing technique, new players will look at how the cards look and will have a negative perception of the game right from the start.

The cards I print look great, almost like the real thing– but it does cost a few dollars (maybe 10-15 cents AUD each). A professional printer can print an entire deck for about $10 AUD, which is about $8 USD. The expectation is that new players once they get into the game will print their own cards at their own cost (unless they have an excessively rich tournament director.

Otherwise, printing the cards can be useful only on a local or regional level for beginners. If you want more people to play real-life games that may be an OKAY thing to do. But like ketthejet wrote in another topic (correct me if I'm wrong), why not lend some cards or just give some of the commons or uncommons or rare you don't need?

Lending is great, if you have access. Stupid me sold all my excess cards and kept my collections only. I have every card released (give or take a few – but lack the cards to hand out or lend unfortunately). Realm of the Elf Lords is the big head-ache for me getting a tournament happening. Different people face different problems, this is about giving them options.

By the way... these choices are biased.
I don't want new players - I like to play by myself
No proxies - my common cards and sites are too valuable

Fixed

[ket_the_jet]

The cards I print look great, almost like the real thing– but it does cost a few dollars (maybe 10-15 cents AUD each). A professional printer can print an entire deck for about $10 AUD, which is about $8 USD.

You know what is cheaper than $8 USD for a printed starter deck? A real starter deck.
-wtk

[sharkey]

Ket has a point.

However, those are in limited production, as in none.

[chompers]

If the cards are available - buy them of course. If not and you have to spend a bomb for a starter on that rare occasion it comes on Ebay - then i think $8USD is cheaper. You can of course print cheaper - and glue (shudder) to your excess site and one ring and hobbit sword cards (this is the standard practice in Star Trek).

Its nice when the cards look good (that way they don't look too out of place next to real cards) - and you can produce similar quality for cheaper than the real thing assuming the cards are out-of-print. 9 cards per A4 page for around $1USD. I wouldn't start printing hobbit swords but for a common out-of-print from RotEL that allows you to play the game - #$&*@! yeah i would.

This is not about printing every card ever released. It is getting out-of-print cards into new players hands so they can play the game.

[chompers]

I have made a pdf file for the legolas starter from realms of the elf lords. The file is 1.25meg so too big for me to send in one chunk. I will split it in half. If anyone wants to have a look and give me feedback - send me a pm and i will email it.

[Kenddrick]

Chompers has done a brilliant job! I propose we use the starter decks, and release them the same time as the PC.

[legolas3333]

Ket has a point.

However, those are in limited production, as in none.

those are not in limited production,
last time i was in a card shop i saw at least 15 unopened starter deck boxes from sets 1-12 along with 1 opened  box from each set, all of which had like 4-5 decks left in them. Hills wholesale gaming sells them for like 3 bucks and they wouldn't do that if they were in limited quantities.

[sharkey]

I said limited Production, not limited sale or supply.

[Jerba]

I'd be against proxies in general. However, I would support a rule about limiting the number of proxies in a deck to 10-30% of the deck or something like that. I want people to be able to play, but they do need to make some effort and we don't want to ruin the market for the sellers of the game either.

That is why I would support a limited proxy solution. Make all the cards available to proxy but only allow a certain number in the tournament legal deck itself (you can do whatever you want in your group I suppose). I feel that would be a decent solution.

[Smeagollum]

I voted other. I think if you want to have new players in they should be able to use all the cards. The only way is to reprint them. Maybe it's an idea to make reprints with a different backside so that people know that it are proxies and that they don't have the value of normal cards.

Besides that I think that if you gonna use printable proxies then they also should have the gametext of the errata if there is one.

[chompers]

When i put the Legolas Starter from RotEL together as a pdf i noticed that at least two cards have errata in Far Seeing Eyes and Gimli Dwarf of Erebor. It is probably not good practice to provide cards intended for newbies with incorrect game text. It would be pretty east to fix Far Seeing Eyes and make it unique, but altering Gimli DOE is another issue. I have yet to manage to alter a cards text and make it look similar.

Then there is the problem of issuing errata cards without Deciphers permission (and maybe also issuing a pdf to print without their permission). Decipher has indicated that they are willing to talk to us - so in the long run this may not be an issue.

As for printable proxies - my opinion remains - selected cards could be printed for use with FoTR block only (from RotEL). The format is intended to support new players. Once they build their collection they can venture out into more advanced formats and play with real cards (no proxies). This way we have a dedicated format that is easily accessible for newbies.

As for access to cards in hobby stores - there are only two hobby stores left in the greater Sydney area that stock LOTR to my knowledge. They are selling what little they have left at about 50% off which is generally more expensive than Ebay. And what they have for sale is incomplete (not overly usable for newbies). Remember, access for different players all over the world to cards will vary - and RotEL (along with other sets) remains out-of-print and hard to find for many of us.

[Smeagollum]

Well, I'll hear tomorrow from a source if I can find some boxes Fotr, Rotk, Bloodlines, Shadows, Mount Doom, Sog (those I;m actually sure) and maybe some Rotel and Mom, TT (if i didn't bought his last box), Bohd and eof. Each 30 euro with about 7 euro port.

[chompers]

I have finished a complete printable pdf for the legolas starter from RotEL with errata on the cards that needed it (thanks to members for help with errata). It is 8 pages long and will cost about $8USD to print in high quality. So there is no money to be saved here over real cards, unless you print on the cheap. But you will end up with a good looking product, with altered game text on cards that need it, and access to out-of-print cards (granted they are currently available on Ebay less the p-cards, but it will cost over $100 to put this starter together using that method). This should be helpful for new players once it is sanctioned by Decipher.

[Kenddrick]

Great work chompers. Now get the starters from FOTR, TTT and ROTK done!