Durin's Secret Society of Dear Friends

[Kralik]

So what, in your opinion, counts as broken?

I've been testing a new deck on GCCG that is fairly fragile for the first few sites. Some of you may have seen it. I don't want to give it away yet, but it runs 9 companions and is usually completely set up by site 4. It kept losing until I switched up the Shadow and got better at strategy. Now it is winning.

Once it is rolling at site 3/4, here's what it can do each turn:

-Take 7 Freeps cards of your choice from the deck into hand (yes, I know Rule of 4... but I do it a different way)
-Remove essentially unlimited burdens (20+ I suppose, with Sam SoH and next point)
-Heal up to 32 wounds (20 Fellowship and 12 Regroup, or 16F/4Sk/12R)
-Deal 14 wounds of direct damage (8 from Slaked Thirsts, 6 from Directed Archery, 1 Normal Arch) before using Eowyn, LoI. With regroup healing of 12 Slaked is reusable and Eowyn LoI and co are healed.
-Make any surviving minions up to strength -20 or so in increments of -2 (thanks for the tip Pepin).
-Triple, Quadruple, or... you name it! Up to six moves a turn. Realistically doesn't need to do more than Triple often.

And then I have a bunch of Freeps cards that I can take out if needed such as Deep in Thought. I find that if I can survive the setup, and if I'm not facing one of its few weaknesses (such as hand discard) I'm pretty much invincible.

So... what do you think? Clever or broken?
I think this may even rival Broken Tokens from Standard.

Sites:
Site 1: Dunharrow Plateau
Site 2: King's Tent
Site 3: Beacon of Minas Tirith
Site 4: Osgiliath Fallen
Site 5: City Gates
Site 6: Minas Tirith First Circle
Site 7: Osgiliath Crossing
Site 8: Northern Ithilien (kinda random)
Site 9: Dagorlad

Freeps (35):
Ringbearer: Frodo, Master of the Precious
Ring: Answer to All Riddles

1x Smeagol, Poor Creature (starting)
1x Gimli, Feared Axeman (starting)
1x Sam, Son of Hamfast (starting)
1x Legolas, Greenleaf (P)
1x Eowyn, Lady of Ithilien
1x Gandalf, Greyhame
1x Aragorn, Ranger of the North (P)
1x Durin III, Dwarven Lord

4x Birthday Present
3x Dear Friends
1x No Help for It
1x A Light In His Mind
4x The Shire Countryside

1x Pathfinder*
1x Durin's Secret
1x Deep in Thought
1x Roll of Thunder

1x Aragorn's Bow
1x Gandalf's Staff
1x Aiglos

1x Ever My Heart Rises
1x Not the First Halfling
1x Preparations
4x Slaked Thirsts

Shadow (35):

Shadow has a few options. This deck originally started as a LttG setup deck, with multiple Preparations and Dwaves for the Freeps instead of Durin's Secret. It worked well as such. My current Shadow is:

2x Gollum, Old Villain
1x Gollum, Plotting Deceiver
4x Evil-smelling Fens
2x Let Her Deal With Them
4x Captured by the Ring

4x Constantly Threatening
4x Dunlending Rampager
4x Dunlending Renegade
3x Wild Men of the Hills
3x Hides

1x Mumak Chieftain
1x Mumakil

1x Shelob, Last Child of Ungoliant (P)
1x Sauron, The Lord of the Rings (P)

Freeps Strategy:
Bid high to start. You want one of 9 Freeps cards in hand: Birthday Present (best), Dear Friends or Bilbo, Retired Adventurer. If not, perhaps mulligan. However, it can pay off to wait until site 2 for the action if you can get your opponent to stop there with Shadow. Sometimes I get Birthday Present in first draw but don't use it until site 2. Play Beneath the Mountains Ever My Heart Rises from Dunharrow Plateau. When ready...

Discard *most* of your draw deck! If you have Birthday Present, you might discard all... if you have Dear Friends or Bilbo, leave some cards and stick Birthday Present and A Light In His Mind in the deck. Now for each Freeps turn:

-Bring back Smeagol with Frodo or Greyhame, then use Birthday Present to draw 1x No Help for It and 3x Dear Friends. Do this one card at a time and manipulate initiative by playing other cards from your hand (NOT Dear Friends unless your opponent let you have No Help for It already). Remember Rule of 4 with Birthday Present.
-Stick 6 Freeps cards of your choice under your draw deck by exerting Smeagol or Legolas. Heal exerts with the Shire Countryside and A Light in His Mind. Prioritize which ones to get first... Preparations FOR SURE, The Shire Countryside, and Legolas are usually my first choices. However, Greyhame lets you play a companion each turn, giving you essentially 7 cards, so you might want him.
-Remove all burdens and add them again with Answer to All Riddles the turn you use No Help for It. Any extra exerts are for Not the First Halfling, but make sure to start every turn with a fully healed Fellowship.
-Get your stuff ready to run! Massive healing with No Help for It in regroup gives you exerts for Preparations and Slaked Thirsts.

Shadow strategy:
Use Old Villain to cycle if you need it to get your Freeps cards.

Try to see if you can play stuff like Constantly Threatening or Evil-smelling Fens before decking yourself. Constantly Threatening lets you play the cheap Dunland minions and might discourage your opponent from doubling. If they lose initiative by discarding cards, you can play Gollum, Plotting Deceiver, use Evil-smelling Fens to grab a minion of choice, and maybe even Let Her Deal With Them. With lots of twilight, play Sauron (dmg+3), with less, play Mumak Chieftain (Str. 14, Fierce, Dmg+2). Quite often your opponent will not have initiative because they cleared out their Freeps cards from hand to try to cycle for their upcoming Shadow.

Or... if your Freeps is in good shape, play nothing so their hand will clog and give you an easier run.

Choosing which cards to grab with Dear Friends is the key strategy here... It's not a bad idea to grab a Durin's Secret early in case you suddenly have to use it. Or an extra Birthday Present to keep in hand in case the first one is discarded. If your opponent is forewarned, they may start by running immediately from site 1-3, 3-5, etc. However, many will pause because for fear of Dunland at site 3. Be careful in your initial sites, and keep key Shadow cards in hand before decking yourself if possible.

Update: Slimmed the deck down to 35/35 to help with starting draws.

[Cw0rk]

It sounds pretty clever and it looks broken. I'd have to see it before I can confirm its brokeness.

[Kralik]

For fun, see if you can guess the companions. I will post the full list later.

I've given you two:

Eowyn, Lady of Ithilien
Sam, Son of Hamfast

[Kralik]

It sounds pretty clever and it looks broken. I'd have to see it before I can confirm its brokeness.

You were always my inspiration for crazy decks like this.

[Cw0rk]

I'm pretty sure your deck also includes The Shire Countryside and A Light in his mind. It's pretty easy to guess a lot of the cards. The main question is how do you procede to win and lose initiative?

[ket_the_jet]

Gandalf, Manager of Wizards and Echoes of Valinor are my guess.

So what is the easiest way to bring cards out of the discard pile? Because I'm thinking that Ever My Heart Rises discarding the whole deck has something to do with it!
-wtk

[Kralik]

Yes to c10ckw0rk (it's a given), but no to ket. Try a different Gandy.

Most turns I don't bother to win/lose initiative during Fellowship, as I rarely have that many wounds to heal. Maybe a few. The way to get all the Freeps cards I need... now that, my dear friends, is a secret.

[ket_the_jet]

Yes to c10ckw0rk (it's a given), but no to ket. Try a different Gandy.

Most turns I don't bother to win/lose initiative during Fellowship, as I rarely have that many wounds to heal. Maybe a few. The way to get all the Freeps cards I need... now that, my dear friends, is a secret.

Well, my second guess would have been Gandalf, the Grey Pilgrim, but I can see Leader of Men having his place as well.

Also, Dear Friends is clearly in this deck. You have to love Kralik's Oscar Wilde-like wordplay.
-wtk

[Cw0rk]

Dear Friends with birthday present, yes!

[ket_the_jet]

So what this really is would be a longer set-up pipeweed deck.
-wtk

[Kralik]

Nailed it c10ckw0rk!

That's a large part of it. I'll change the deck title to what I use for myself and update the card list.

So what this really is would be a longer set-up pipeweed deck.

Actually, setup is rather fast. Freeps are usually decent by site 3 Fellowship, very strong by site 4 Fellowship.

[ket_the_jet]

Gandalf, Friend of the Shirefolk

Frodo, Son of Drogo

Aragorn, Elessar Telcontar

Legolas, Greenleaf

Gimli, Feared Axeman

Gandalf's Pipe
Aragorn's Pipe
Frodo's Pipe
Gimli's Pipe
The Gaffer's Pipe

Longbottom Leaf
Old Toby

Where do those fit in?
-wtk

[Kralik]

Greenleaf and Feared Axeman, check.

Pipeweed, nope.

[ket_the_jet]

Ever My Heart Rises, Slaked Thirsts.

Dunharrow Plateau.

Gandalf, Leader of Men.

Merry, Friend to Sam.

Faramir, Son of Denethor.

Some Gondor Bowmen, I figure.
-wtk

[sharkey]

Well, directed archery pretty much has to be Aragorn's bow and Legolas GL.

[Kralik]

ket, you got the site. Now name the condition!

shakey, correct as well. Which Gorn?

Hope you all don't mind the guessing game.
It's actually not an invincible deck, but I just like to think it is.
A large threat is being outrun by, say, Ents with Radagast or Gondor Men with Elendil + artifacts or Last Throw.

[ket_the_jet]

Well, if not Ever My Heart Rises, then perhaps Beneath The Mountains or Realm of Dwarrowdelf.
-wtk

[Kralik]

I am not waiting until the skirmish phase for action.

[Cw0rk]

Aiglos for legolas.
Ket said Echoes of Valinor, is it there?
Your RB is a hobbit and you use the Binding Ring to grab the vitality +1 dwarf ring.
Preparations.

[Kralik]

Aiglos, yes.
Echoes, no.
Preparations x1.

Dwarf vitality ring seemed like a good idea, but I bid high, so it's not really worth it. So not the Binding Ring. RB is indeed a hobbit though.

Just played vs. Gwaihir and tripled from 3-6 and then from 6-9. I played about 10 minions for his site 7.

I moved: 1-2, 2-3, 3-6, 6-9.
He moved: 1-3, 3-5, 5-7.

Best scenario for me is if opponent stops at site 2. Gwaihir didn't, and got hit with Sauron, but was fine nonetheless.

[Cw0rk]

In the first topic you say hand discard is a weakess. If you don't use Frodo, Courteous Halfing it means your RB is Bilbo?

[Gil-Estel]

I have seen it..... I was in awe! It had greatness written all over it!

[legolas3333]

make haste to bounce sam into hand?

[Witchkingx5]

Durin's Secret
What Are We Waiting For?
Change of Plans
Out of the High Airs

[Kralik]

Ha, WK

I did have those cards in there, but removed all but the first. Durin's Secret x3.
Not Bilbo, but I need a different Frodo than Courteous Halfling. After I get Gandalf, Frodo can be sacrificed (though I've yet to need to do that).

[ket_the_jet]

Interesting then. I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest Frodo, Master of the Precious.

Seems like Smeagol is right up this deck's alley. Maybe a copy of Follow Smeagol to control the site-path and I'm going to guess Smeagol, Old Noser for the simple sake of that one never being used.
-wtk

[Gil-Estel]

Asnwer to all riddles ;-) = Grima CC + Saruman's Power + Greed, haha...sorry Kralik, but actually my point is: not broken, just hard to break ;-)

As if it is not there......

[ket_the_jet]

Asnwer to all riddles ;-) = Grima CC + Saruman's Power + Greed, haha...sorry Kralik, but actually my point is: not broken, just hard to break ;-)

Damnit, Heije, I was going to play a Saruman's Power deck against him and see how it worked.
-wtk

[Kralik]

Grima CC is OK because of Slaked Thirsts.

Saruman's Power is a pain, but I have a backup plan to get conditions back.
Deep in Thought for Greed.

But check on Frodo! Smeagol doesn't stay around enough for Follow Smeagol to be useful. Instead, Pathfinder for site 7 (only one that matters much...). Guess which site 7 I use?

[Kralik]

ket, do you really care that much if I post the full list before you get a chance to see it on GCCG?

sorry Kralik, but actually my point is: not broken, just hard to break ;-)

Then I suppose I will keep playing it. But it seems to me that it is somewhat annoying for my opponent when my Fellowship phases take as long as they do.

[legolas3333]

site 7 is the only one that won't hurt you, Osgiliath Channel, your aragorn I think is King in Exile or Driven By Need, if it is driven by need then you must use never to get rid of threats and maybe Pippin, sworn to service to add them. You obviously remove burdens in skirmish due to your comment at the beginning, so i would say 1x NFFATROD, your gandalf might be mithrandir, probably is if you can heal 30 wounds every turn... thats all the guessing I'm doing now

EDIT: changed my mind, there's no way you would do something as crazy as what i mentioned above, therefore i stick with Gandalf, Mithrandir and Aragorn, King In Exile

[ket_the_jet]

Go ahead and post it. I am curious enough.
-wtk

[Kralik]

You are right about Site 7. NFFATROD ruins my plans for Birthday Present, since there is one other Shire event in the deck I need each turn besides Dear Friends. Mithrandir sounds fun, but I don't really need a strong skirmish companion... and there is still a better option.

Almost all Gorns are useful, so I'll just reveal him as Ranger of the North (P).

[Kralik]

Go ahead and post it. I am curious enough.

Okey dokey.

[legolas3333]

WAIT! do you use not the first halfling? i bet you do cause it's one of like 5 cards in movie that makes a minion strength -2

[Kralik]

Yes. That was Pepin's idea. Working on the first post now.

[legolas3333]

ok after seeing the decklist only one question, why Legolas, Greenleaf (P) the original has a much better picture
and with his name in the title and everythign we couldn't guess durin was in there, oh well

[Kralik]

I like the Promo picture better and I have it in GCCG?

[ket_the_jet]

Awesome! I completely forgot that Gandalf, Greyhame existed. I suppose my only question is:

Why no Barliman Butterbur, Prancing Pony Proprietor?

May be nice in a pinch.
-wtk

[Kralik]

Why no Barliman Butterbur, Prancing Pony Proprietor?

Space and Rule of 4 with Birthday Present.

Hey folks, tell me of the weaknesses you see! My plan for Saruman's Power is Bilbo + Elrond early... Easterling Polearm + Easterling Captain + Small Hope is also a threat. Roll of Thunder, Not the First Halfling, and Suicide Frodo (to "remove" 2 burdens) are my ideas there. Triple would be hard, though. Glamdring helps me plan a bit.

[ket_the_jet]

Could you give a basic, by-site estimate of the twilight this deck generates?

Seems like an early Sauron could really mess you up.
-wtk

[Kralik]

Site 1: Very little (Beneath the Mountains, maybe one or two cost conditions like TSC)
Site 2: Depends on whether I used Birthday Present at site 1.

First site after Birthday Present: Lots
Next site: Lots and Lots and Lots
Next site...

Site 9 last game I played: 42 twilight left

Yes, Sauron could be a problem. One of the reasons I go for Preparations and Greenleaf first. But after I get set up (and have Eowyn LoI), big minions are the best! I try not to play 6 companions until I have Slaked Thirsts ready. The first Birthday Present usually grabs TSC, A Light In His Mind, Preparations... not sure if it would be enough to play Sauron.

[Gil-Estel]

Kralik, don't play it too often, cause that would be frustrating to others, other than that, most will be in utter amazement with the creativity!

[Cw0rk]

Great deck. I also love your shadow.

[Kralik]

Kralik, don't play it too often, cause that would be frustrating to others, other than that, most will be in utter amazement with the creativity!

So perhaps I should alternate this deck with my discard deck?

Great deck. I also love your shadow.

I stole the idea... *cough* *cough*

[Gil-Estel]

Kralik, don't play it too often, cause that would be frustrating to others, other than that, most will be in utter amazement with the creativity!

So perhaps I should alternate this deck with my discard deck?

NOOOOOO! Never, I will use my Jedi mindtrick now: abandon all your discarddecks, I repeat, abandon all your discarddecks. Just play it now and then and try to built ie a great Lady Undomiel deck, cause she rocks!

[TelTura]

"discard" the discard decks?

[sharkey]

Nice deck. I don't consider it too broken because it is kinda tenuous.

[Kralik]

Just barely made it vs. jmccarthy/Moria. Lost Birthday Present the turn I played it and learned some things along the way...

1) Keep a backup of Birthday Present in hand.
2) Don't kill Frodo at site 3.
3) Don't forget Pathfinder for site 7.

In the end, every companion was dead except for Sam, who was wounded with three burdens, and Smeagol, who was discarded. I only had one TSC in play the whole game, so minimal healing. Threats wiped everyone out after I tripled from 6 to 9.

[Gil-Estel]

"discard" the discard decks?

Yeah, in the bin with them....Burn them, mold them, crush them, get rid of them!

[Kralik]

Update: So far 5 for 5 wins. Last game was Corsair... Castamir with his high vitality was my best friend! Now that I've got better at strategy I'd like to play this deck vs. Saruman's Power or Easterlings and see how it fares.

[legolas3333]

yeah my stupid castimar, drew him like 3 straight turns, Corsair Marauder was nice though

[Cw0rk]

Other possibilites for your shadow to go along the Mumak guy:

- Saruman, BT with his staff
- Uruk Captain + any uruk you like.

The mumak guy is still probably better but these are just random suggestions.

[Kralik]

...And I take a crushing defeat vs. Ents + Radagast at site 1... :p

Called the game after my opponent's first turn: end at site 4 and me without any Shadow conditions or cards left.

[Pepin The Breve]

Well, since i have a similar deck that i never use cause i think its too broken (but i do use the not broken version on my rainbow freeps / corsairs that have not died yet) i have developed a counter shadow to it... but i also don't use it very often cause it was just developed to ruin my broken deck.

Anyway Moria + Corsair Navy woul be a nice oponent if played wisely...

[legolas3333]

i think not, remember he can throw out like 20 wounds and can bring back roll of thunder

[Kralik]

Best bet for Moria Navy is to carefully stock up on the perfect hand then bomb at site 9. Glamdring may help me to remove some twilight in regroup, but probably not enough. If you never play any minions, I can't use Deep In Thought or Roll of Thunder.

But... you'd need a Freeps that cycles well, since using something like They Are Coming lets me nuke your conditions.

In other news, I did fine vs. Easterlings and traded the ring for Answer to All Riddles (weaker in the beginning, but better vs. stuff like Desperate Measures, etc). I usually move with no burdens and add the burdens on the turn in which I use No Help For It.

[Gil-Estel]

It is evil. Best is to run, so have a simular deck ready or an other one that runs like crazy. Thrarin and Elrond as allies and then ents, gandalf, radagast and 4x durin's secret. You will be fine

[Smeagollum]

Hi Kralik,

Don't think you will have any problems with Easterlings. But what do you think about Southron Troop (or rather an enduring Southron Troop with seasoned leaders)?

[ket_the_jet]

Smeagollum:

Who really plays Southron Troop? I mean, most people for would rather splash in a Shotgun Enquea for crowd control.

Anyways, a few Slaked Thirsts here, an Aragorn's Bow there...I don't think Southron Troop is a problem.
-wtk

[Smeagollum]

Smeagollum:

Who really plays Southron Troop? I mean, most people for would rather splash in a Shotgun Enquea for crowd control.

Anyways, a few Slaked Thirsts here, an Aragorn's Bow there...I don't think Southron Troop is a problem.
-wtk

There's only one preparations in his deck so if that one's gone slaked thirsts won't do that much harm. If this deck really is that good as everybody thinks (and I really don't know as I don't encoutered it yet) then it will mean that more people will play it and  that more people will change their shadow and then it might be possible that Southron troop will be played more. And as I understand it he play as much companions as possible to get all his cards out. In that case southron troop is more reliable then Enquea as you can prevent wounds, but you can't prevent troop's discard ability. And it there's a seasoned leader on him then Aragorn's bow won't have a lot of effect as well, though in combo with Legolas greanleaf there should be no problem.

Besides I'm just wandering what the weakness is of this deck.

[ket_the_jet]

You can continuously bring back Preparations with Dear Friends, which you can continuously bring back with Birthday Present.

I have to say, if you don't knock off Sam or Frodo by turn two, then you are in trouble.
-wtk

[Kralik]

There's only one preparations in his deck so if that one's gone slaked thirsts won't do that much harm. If this deck really is that good as everybody thinks (and I really don't know as I don't encoutered it yet) then it will mean that more people will play it and  that more people will change their shadow and then it might be possible that Southron troop will be played more.

Only one Preparations is needed because of Feared Axeman's text. With Slaked Thirsts each move + Archery... Southron Troop won't stick around. I guess High Vantage would be a problem, but at worst, I could always just let Frodo die. Or... haha! discard a companion... like Smeagol. Or anyone besides Greyhame. They just come back anyway.

EDIT: Remember that Seasoned Leader works to my advantage with Eowyn, LoI. And... why won't more people play this deck? I hope it's because they aren't shamelessly copying my idea.

[Smeagollum]

There's only one preparations in his deck so if that one's gone slaked thirsts won't do that much harm. If this deck really is that good as everybody thinks (and I really don't know as I don't encoutered it yet) then it will mean that more people will play it and  that more people will change their shadow and then it might be possible that Southron troop will be played more.

Only one Preparations is needed because of Feared Axeman's text. With Slaked Thirsts each move + Archery... Southron Troop won't stick around. I guess High Vantage would be a problem, but at worst, I could always just let Frodo die. Or... haha! discard a companion... like Smeagol. Or anyone besides Greyhame. They just come back anyway.

EDIT: Remember that Seasoned Leader works to my advantage with Eowyn, LoI. And... why won't more people play this deck? I hope it's because they aren't shamelessly copying my idea.

Haha I saw already one person copying it..

I think you're almost right about southron troop, but if he keeps on table you'll have a problem say if you've got 8 comps on table. Sure you can get Frodo killed and make sam the rb, but it's not so that you've got the option which comps will be discarded. Meaning that Gandalf will be discarded as sam will have big problems to face the troop. And probably they will discard also Gimli. But conclusion is allready that it will be difficult to do, unless you can get Gimli exhausted.

What I don't get is why you're playing atar and not the reflections ring and then add one dwarven ring which gives vitality so that Gimli get an extra vitality?

But as i see it now it's  best way to defeat this deck is to kill either gandalf or legolas. So with two nazguls (plus wound prevention) out with 4 vitality and either 2c Relentless Charge or 2x Too Great and Terrible might be more nasty...
Do you think Dunlend with hides could be tricky for your deck?

[Kralik]

Ah, I misread Southron Troop as the six companion version, and missed that the Shadow player chooses who is discarded. Now that could be a problem. Of course, with careful planning, Eowyn LoI might still save the day.

The Binding Ring is kinda fun, but too dangerous because I start with too many burdens (high starting bid). With the burdens from the first use of Birthday Present added, I can hardly stay below 5 burdens. After I get my fancy cards then burdens are no longer an issue. I do like giving Gimli extra vitality, but it doesn't really seem needed. I guess I could be worried about multiple Hate's in manuever, but with my using Slaked Thirsts as well, I don't know if would realistically get 3 Hate's in a row.

Such a Weight to Carry is nice early game protection, but I switched to ATAR to let me move with NO burdens and add them in Skirmish phase for Smeagol. This is handy because it protects me vs. Easterling Polearm (don't want 2+ burdens in archery phase), Desperate Measures, etc. Remember I want to have 3 burdens by regroup once per triple... can't guarantee that at all with The Binding Ring, and Such A Weight To Carry is a bit dangerous.

As far as the Nazgul scenario... of course it's possible to imagine the perfect killing scenario, but who really builds decks just to kill ONE specific deck? I have about 20 Movie decks and I always switch between them... packing Too Great and Terrible (for example) doesn't seem too practical. There's also the problem that my opponent will rarely have a great Shadow hand (8 perfect cards) because their Freeps will clog them.

I haven't had a chance with Dunland yet, but I anticipate that they would pose a great challenge. Roll of Thunder + a bunch of archery may whittle down Hides, but... could be rough.

[Gil-Estel]

Kralik, I played your deck yesterday and man, it was great. Had a starting hand with Gandalf, Dear Friends, Birthday Present. Discarded my entire deck and began the fellowship building right away. Moved 1, 2, 3, 3-6, 6-9. He played corsairs, but he had no chance. He was very, very impressed by the deck, as am I!

[Smeagollum]

Ah, I misread Southron Troop as the six companion version, and missed that the Shadow player chooses who is discarded. Now that could be a problem. Of course, with careful planning, Eowyn LoI might still save the day.

The Binding Ring is kinda fun, but too dangerous because I start with too many burdens (high starting bid). With the burdens from the first use of Birthday Present added, I can hardly stay below 5 burdens. After I get my fancy cards then burdens are no longer an issue. I do like giving Gimli extra vitality, but it doesn't really seem needed. I guess I could be worried about multiple Hate's in manuever, but with my using Slaked Thirsts as well, I don't know if would realistically get 3 Hate's in a row.

Such a Weight to Carry is nice early game protection, but I switched to ATAR to let me move with NO burdens and add them in Skirmish phase for Smeagol. This is handy because it protects me vs. Easterling Polearm (don't want 2+ burdens in archery phase), Desperate Measures, etc. Remember I want to have 3 burdens by regroup once per triple... can't guarantee that at all with The Binding Ring, and Such A Weight To Carry is a bit dangerous.

As far as the Nazgul scenario... of course it's possible to imagine the perfect killing scenario, but who really builds decks just to kill ONE specific deck? I have about 20 Movie decks and I always switch between them... packing Too Great and Terrible (for example) doesn't seem too practical. There's also the problem that my opponent will rarely have a great Shadow hand (8 perfect cards) because their Freeps will clog them.

I haven't had a chance with Dunland yet, but I anticipate that they would pose a great challenge. Roll of Thunder + a bunch of archery may whittle down Hides, but... could be rough.

Well as soon as I am out of hospital and recovered and somebody gives me a good explaination in dutch how to use gccg then I volunteer testing. I always like this kind of decks, but also curious about it's weakneses and there is an anwser to everithing rigt? Even if it's a deck which nobody would play 

As you see Heije copied it. Didn't saw the match, but heard it was incredible and then my curiousity was woken So in the end Heije is quilty about my curiousity hahaha Just kidding Heije!

[Smeagollum]

Ah, I misread Southron Troop as the six companion version, and missed that the Shadow player chooses who is discarded. Now that could be a problem. Of course, with careful planning, Eowyn LoI might still save the day.

By the way.. have a nice story about the southron commander you mentioned. It was at a TT-block tournament in amsterdam 2 days before the european championship (on the first of july.. I remember becuase my birthday is at the third) I played a fantastic ringbound companion fellowship and then I met a Spanish guy.. and he played actually nothing spectaculair. Had no problems and wasn't afraid for enquea, because it was a tt-block so I played all the comps I encountered in my hand.. and then site 7 came with no special skirmish abilities or events and the Southron Commander.. Oh boy what a win he had... Could not discard unbound companions as I only had Ringbound and I couldn't pump Frodo with either Atar or use an event so he should tripple me.... and Sam was not there yet as well:( I was so toasted.

[Kralik]

Kralik, I played your deck yesterday and man, it was great. Had a starting hand with Gandalf, Dear Friends, Birthday Present. Discarded my entire deck and began the fellowship building right away. Moved 1, 2, 3, 3-6, 6-9. He played corsairs, but he had no chance. He was very, very impressed by the deck, as am I!

Great to hear it! It seems like luck is often on my side with the Birthday Present draw... either on site 1 or site 2, usually. Actually, odds are quite good that you'll get either Birthday Present or Dear Friends. This deck is one of very few of my decks that can actually stand up to corsairs... and well at that! No Aragorn's Bow is a pity, but Castamir and co. are my dear, dear friends.

Smeagollum - yikes! I bet your opponent had Southron Commander for a while and was just biding his time... and Ringbound Rangers is a deck style that mostly needs 6+ comps. Curse Them might help, but not at Cavern Entrance...  

Other random ideas for Durin's deck:
-Swap Frodo for Courteous Halfling. Not sure if it's a good idea since it means you need to get Gandalf early and keep him alive. Would be helpful vs. certain decks though... and Legolas with the Frodo signet can substitute for Smeagol if you decide you don't need him for a turn (Play Gandalf and Legolas together, bring Smeagol back next turn).
-Add Pippin WoBaS for a backup hobbit in case Frodo dies. He can always be taken to hand and discarded once you reach the Rule of 9 limit.
-And something I already do: Depending on the matchup, I usually add 3 threats at site 3 just to activate Gimli's Battle Axe, Trusted Weapon.

What do you all think of Ever My Heart Rises instead of Beneath the Mountains?

Pros:
-Better Freeps draws (and better chances for a site 1 Birthday Present)
-Better control with deck discarding

Cons:
-Lots of twilight for site 1!
-Gimli is weak without his axe and easy to overwhelm.

Hmm... 

[Smeagollum]

Mr K.

Think Frodo, Master of the Precious would be a better choise and i would go for emhr. It's just 2 twilight more and it will make your deck faster. Would take a different axe though. The one from 2nd block.

[Kralik]

With Ever My Heart Rises, I am concerned about something like:

Ever My Heart Rises - Twilight.
Other Random Freeps cards - Twilight (Doesn't matter, but let's assume no spare companions)
Moving to Site: for companions, or more for site

Total:

In the situation where my opponents drops down a single minion like Castamir, I'm hosed. Gimli is 6, so all companions could be overwhelmed except perhaps Smeagol, but he can only do his discarding trick once. Fierce kills someone...

[Smeagollum]

With Ever My Heart Rises, I am concerned about something like:

Ever My Heart Rises - Twilight.
Other Random Freeps cards - Twilight (Doesn't matter, but let's assume no spare companions)
Moving to Site: for companions, or more for site

Total:

In the situation where my opponents drops down a single minion like Castamir, I'm hosed. Gimli is 6, so all companions could be overwhelmed except perhaps Smeagol, but he can only do his discarding trick once. Fierce kills someone...

See what you mean.. that would hurt indeed.

But besides that I think I found the anwser to your riddle:

You mentioned that you were curious about beasterlings.. well Beasterlings won't hurt you, because you'll remove burdens plenty. So I said that easterlings won't hurt you, but there I am wrong; I think Easterlings can hurt you big time, more then Castamir could do. The only thing they need to do is get around your archery... Hello Polearm

What I think will cripple your fellowship is to take away your healing and the best way to do so is by removing burdens instead of adding them. For instance:

Easterling Veteran
Easterling Assailant
Easterling Veteran

Combine it with:

Easterling Attacker
Easterling Blademaster
Easterling Ransacker
Easterling Berserker

Also helping would be Gollum Dark as darkness so you can make Fierce in Despair optional or something like Red Wrath.

Ofcourse 2x Ships of Great Draught are needed as well. But basic idea is get around your archery get to skirmish and kill of one of your companions in the skirmish, by making it damage plus x or using Red Wrath.

Something which also could hurt is a combo of mordor minions with say 4x Desperate Measures plus condition removal. But that one would be more difficult.

What do you think?

[Not a Zombie]

high vantage could hurt

[legolas3333]

With Ever My Heart Rises, I am concerned about something like:

Ever My Heart Rises - Twilight.
Other Random Freeps cards - Twilight (Doesn't matter, but let's assume no spare companions)
Moving to Site: for companions, or more for site

Total:

In the situation where my opponents drops down a single minion like Castamir, I'm hosed. Gimli is 6, so all companions could be overwhelmed except perhaps Smeagol, but he can only do his discarding trick once. Fierce kills someone...

See what you mean.. that would hurt indeed.

But besides that I think I found the anwser to your riddle:

You mentioned that you were curious about beasterlings.. well Beasterlings won't hurt you, because you'll remove burdens plenty. So I said that easterlings won't hurt you, but there I am wrong; I think Easterlings can hurt you big time, more then Castamir could do. The only thing they need to do is get around your archery... Hello Polearm

What I think will cripple your fellowship is to take away your healing and the best way to do so is by removing burdens instead of adding them. For instance:

Easterling Veteran
Easterling Assailant
Easterling Veteran

Combine it with:

Easterling Attacker
Easterling Blademaster
Easterling Ransacker
Easterling Berserker

Also helping would be Gollum Dark as darkness so you can make Fierce in Despair optional or something like Red Wrath.

Ofcourse 2x Ships of Great Draught are needed as well. But basic idea is get around your archery get to skirmish and kill of one of your companions in the skirmish, by making it damage plus x or using Red Wrath.

Something which also could hurt is a combo of mordor minions with say 4x Desperate Measures plus condition removal. But that one would be more difficult.

What do you think?

you would need more that 30 twilight to pull this off, probably 35 with high vantage to prevent the directed wounding and gollum, DaD to add twilight, and you realize that removing burdens with gollum, DaD let's him heal with TSC?

[Kralik]

L3333, TSC activates only when Freeps removes burdens. Also, I don't think Smeagollum was proposing ALL of those minions at once, just a sampling. High Vantage doesn't work for Easterlings anyway.

sweet, hope for High Vantage lies in Eowyn LoI... best chance anyway. Or Gorn takes them all... yaaar! For Froooooodooooooo!

Smeagollum, I did actually play against Heije's Easterlings with the works: Small Hope, Easterling Captain, Easterling Polearm, etc. Somehow (surprisingly to me but not to him) I made it just fine. Deep in Thought to take out Small Hope, Roll of Thunder to take out Easterling Polearm, and general luck I suppose. That being said...

I move without any burdens. For the Easterling examples you used above, how were you planning on adding burdens? Small Hope? And, if you do add burdens, how many Easterlings do you expect to be shielded by Easterling Polearm each turn? Any that are not are dead before Skirmish. Easterling Veteran with wounds would be a nice target for Eowyn: if you remove burdens, your Easterling Polearm advantage is lost.

Gorgoroth Stormer + Desperate Measures was why I was wondering about Courteous Halfling. On a side note, because of the risk in early twilight, I'm thinking of dropping Gimli's fancy axe for plain-ol' Dwarven Axe.

[legolas3333]

and you won't be adding threats anyway right? so maybe you should change.

i think your best chance of beating this deck is out bidding him then running to 9

[Smeagollum]

Kralik: It doesn't suprise me at all that old style easterlings didn't hurt you. I had a simlair deck as you had years ago, but not based on durin secret and such, but in mass burdenremoval and healing)) and it realy didn't bother if opponent added burdens. It became a problem when they knew to remove the burdens or if they could add say 10 burdens at once.
You might not add burdens when you move, but I'm sure I'll in the maneuver with Easterling footman or small hope. If you add extra burdens then the extra damage the kingsblock easterlings get. sure Legolas333 is right about that you can't play it all, but I'm sure I can play up to 4 minions a time with so much comps around. But ofcourse I still would need to get things in the right order and on time and I'm sure that when Kralik sees these Easterlings he will anticipate on it, but nontheless this deck could hurt him and I think so far it's the best way against his deck.

Offtopic: Sory for not replying earlier, but I was operated yesterday and was in ic last night. Received an elastic ring around my belly so I can loose weight. Operation was succesfull and now I'm home allready:)

[Kralik]

No worries regarding the late reply. My defense would be to kill all of the Easterlings without Easterling Polearm... and since you can only have up to 4x of those per game, it makes it harder for you to keep those "4" minions in action. But truly, I didn't expect I could survive vs. Easterlings at all.

[ket_the_jet]

Smeagollum,
Eastering Captain with an Easterling Polearm. Assuming Small Hope or Easterling Footman is in play (rather, assuming at least two burdens for that particular turn), Kralik's "give infinite twilight" strategy could come back to really hurt him.

Of course, it doesn't seem like it did in this case...
-wtk

[Kralik]

I only "give infinite twilight" if it's really safe and I need to discard conditions. Not vs. Easterling Captain! Although the deck puts out TONS of twilight in general.

Roll of Thunder is there for Easterling Polearm specifically... no other pressing reason to pack it in the deck. Sure, it's handy, but I can't think of any other major threats (Grond, maybe).

[Smeagollum]

I only "give infinite twilight" if it's really safe and I need to discard conditions. Not vs. Easterling Captain! Although the deck puts out TONS of twilight in general.

Roll of Thunder is there for Easterling Polearm specifically... no other pressing reason to pack it in the deck. Sure, it's handy, but I can't think of any other major threats (Grond, maybe).

You forget that I put in 2 ships of great draught.. i think you'll see those polearms more then 4x.

But really the other easterlings don't hurt if you play on burdenremoval... you only need to watch out Easterling Pillager and count!

Other optional shadow which in my opinion could stand your deck is:

captured by the ring
Gollum
Mordor Fighter
Gorgoroth Stormer
Desperate Measures

I think your deck won't stand the lost of 20 cards at least (probably played with discard fs)/

[Witchkingx5]

Smeagollum, I'm glad to hear your operation went well!

Anyway, I once heard something about Faramir, BoQ, and as I'm looking for this guy for a long time, maybe we can make a trade...

[Kralik]

I think your deck won't stand the lost of 20 cards at least (probably played with discard fs)/

Perhaps you missed the point of this deck -- you realize that I discard my entire deck ASAP, right? Drawing the cards I want isn't up to random chance. I draw 6/7 Freeps cards of my choice per turn based on the Shadow I am facing.

Desperate Measures could be troublesome not because it discards my deck down to 0, but because I lose the precious cards I stacked there. Hence perhaps the switch to Courteous Halfling (though truthfully I almost never face discard even though I play it myself).

[Christopher]

I love that deck, your played first times with me. Its sooooooooooo mad, and nice xD. Good job, Kralik and congrats for your little girl !

[Smeagollum]

Kralik, you have a little girl? 

I know discard is hardly played, because most people don't like to play it as they think it's npe, but here we have a few person who do play discard (actually we have 2). Also a nice story about that one... Everybody remembers The White Arrows of Lorien right?! Well we had a multiplayer tournament and me and my friend Menno decided to annoy people by playing both a discard deck with Elves and dwarves and with sauron and Dunlend. In those days we had a player (our national touranment director for lotr actually) who really doesn't like discard. Actually we decided to play it specially for him... And yes we both went in the first multiplaymatch against him. You people can't imagine how much fun Menno and I had by ditching all of Eric's cards (and after he was out of the game at site5 eachothers). You should have seen Eric's face:)
Anyway... discard could be tricky against you. If you decide to empty your deck as soon as possible the shadow only needs 5 burdens to corrupt you and they will keep that card in hand untill they can play it when it's fatal.

Anyway I need to make an appointment with somebody to teach me gccg.

[legolas3333]

the worst combo would be gorgoth stormer and 4x the ring is mine after the site where you dump everything and have lik 4-5 burdens

[Smeagollum]

the worst combo would be gorgoth stormer and 4x the ring is mine after the site where you dump everything and have lik 4-5 burdens

I know, but it don't work with sites.. stormer can only be used in the shadowphase. So you need to ditch his deck by yourself and then pull out the trick.

[Kralik]

the worst combo would be gorgoth stormer and 4x the ring is mine after the site where you dump everything and have lik 4-5 burdens

I know, but it don't work with sites.. stormer can only be used in the shadowphase. So you need to ditch his deck by yourself and then pull out the trick.

No -- he's right. Ideally the Shadow player could play The Irresistible Shadow and add 5 burdens. Pelennor Flat could help if I don't use Pathfinder first. Though it would be hard to get those cards all at once that early. My draw deck will have 6 cards in it after I move, so the Shadow player would have to a) Use discard or b) add LOTS of burdens.

Option a) 7 burdens needed, Desperate Measures x2 or Perhaps 6 Burdens + Desperate Measures + Orc Warrior.
Option b) 8 burdens by the end of my triple so that even if I remove 3, the 5 leftover will corrupt me next turn.

Both are possibilities, but difficult to pull off. I'm curious on how I would fare vs. jmccarthy's corruption deck that adds 4-5 burdens each turn (OK, I think, since the triple doesn't allow him to "reload")

[legolas3333]

Both are possibilities, but difficult to pull off. I'm curious on how I would fare vs. jmccarthy's corruption deck that adds 4-5 burdens each turn (OK, I think, since the triple doesn't allow him to "reload")

I have yet to play against that deck...

I still think the best strategy against it is to just bid high then make him search for beneath the mountains which (hopefully) will not show up.

[ket_the_jet]

L3333: How high are you willing to bid? If you use any Ring-Bearer other than Frodo, Kralik will likely outbid you with a bid of 6 or 7.
-wtk

[legolas3333]

if he bids 6 or 7 i say gorgoroth stormer + the ring is mine

[ket_the_jet]

If he bids six or seven, then he removes three with Sam, Son of Hamfast and then a net two more once he gets out Birthday Present and No Help For It.

So let's say he bids six. He is then up to seven burdens with playing Smeagol. At the end of that turn, he could be down to three using Sam, plus one with Birthday Present, and then minus three with No Help For It.

Bidding six and being down to two burdens at the end of one turn is pretty nice, if you ask me.
-wtk

[legolas3333]

ok but he bids 6, -3 with sam, +4 for birthday present which means he is at 7 for shadow phase.

5 burdens corrupts him. (aforementioned gorgoroth stormer + the ring is mine)

or the irresistible shadow +2x desperate measures plus any sauron minion with 2 vitality, orc ambusher comes to mind.

actually, the second is more viable since it requires only 7 twilight where the first you'd probably have to add a threat then play the  initiative guy from RotK... mordor fighter

[ket_the_jet]

Well, presuming that his goal is to start with Birthday Present in his hand, he only needs to add as many burdens as copies of Dear Friends get discarded before No Help For It.

Plus, you are counting on four specific cards to show up in your first hand. I don't know any The Irresistible Shadow deck that plays more than two copies of that card--most play just one and have Dead Marshes to bring it back if it gets dumped.

I like Kralik's odds against a very specific hand you need.
-wtk

[legolas3333]

true

the only real way to beat it is to make a deck specifically designed to, not the greatest idea ever but the only one that would work (probably).

[Cw0rk]

Kralik, what about a Gollum + Shelob deck preventing you from assigning Eowyn, LoI?

[Gwaihir]

Four Slaked Thirsts exhausts shelob and Aragorn's Bow, or Legolas Greenleaf finishes her off.

[legolas3333]

well... final strike to prevent greenleaf and bow

[Gwaihir]

Deep in Thought.

[Smeagollum]

the worst combo would be gorgoth stormer and 4x the ring is mine after the site where you dump everything and have lik 4-5 burdens

I know, but it don't work with sites.. stormer can only be used in the shadowphase. So you need to ditch his deck by yourself and then pull out the trick.

No -- he's right. Ideally the Shadow player could play The Irresistible Shadow and add 5 burdens. Pelennor Flat could help if I don't use Pathfinder first. Though it would be hard to get those cards all at once that early. My draw deck will have 6 cards in it after I move, so the Shadow player would have to a) Use discard or b) add LOTS of burdens.

Option a) 7 burdens needed, Desperate Measures x2 or Perhaps 6 Burdens + Desperate Measures + Orc Warrior.
Option b) 8 burdens by the end of my triple so that even if I remove 3, the 5 leftover will corrupt me next turn.

Both are possibilities, but difficult to pull off. I'm curious on how I would fare vs. jmccarthy's corruption deck that adds 4-5 burdens each turn (OK, I think, since the triple doesn't allow him to "reload")

Maybe we miscommunicating here, but stormer says specificaly that there's need to be innitiative in the shadowphase to add a burden. The site could be helpfull, but if your deck is not empty at that time then those burdens won't mean anything to you. Best way still is to make your deck empty first and then use the innitiativetrick and all other combo's needed.


By the way if I would bid with frodo it would be around 8 And then Frodo fries... and Sam becomes the gardener

[Kralik]

L3333: How high are you willing to bid? If you use any Ring-Bearer other than Frodo, Kralik will likely outbid you with a bid of 6 or 7.
-wtk

Are you kidding? I don't bid that high -- it's Enquea suicide!
I rest my laurels on this: The only reason I see anyone bid high in Movie Block is for Dunharrow Plateau. If you knew you were facing my deck, you might bid higher, but how would you know?

Maybe we miscommunicating here, but stormer says specificaly that there's need to be innitiative in the shadowphase to add a burden. The site could be helpfull, but if your deck is not empty at that time then those burdens won't mean anything to you. Best way still is to make your deck empty first and then use the innitiativetrick and all other combo's needed.

By the way if I would bid with frodo it would be around 8 And then Frodo fries... and Sam becomes the gardener

I almost never have initiative during Shadow, so Gorgoroth Stormer will probably work.
Killing Frodo is a bad idea since it breaks A Light In His Mind. If I have to, I will, but I try not to. Also Sam is only resistance 5... adding 6 burdens in one turn is easy for the right Shadow...

[Kralik]

well... final strike to prevent greenleaf and bow

Three Slaked Thirsts on Shelob, One on Gollum.
Use Greenleaf or Aragorn's Bow to shoot Gollum once and Shelob twice. Whether Gollum exerts to cancel the wound on himself with Final Strike or actually takes the wound doesn't matter. The remaining archery takes out Gollum himself.

[Cw0rk]

well... final strike to prevent greenleaf and bow

Three Slaked Thirsts on Shelob, One on Gollum.
Use Greenleaf or Aragorn's Bow to shoot Gollum once and Shelob twice. Whether Gollum exerts to cancel the wound on himself with Final Strike or actually takes the wound doesn't matter. The remaining archery takes out Gollum himself.

Final Strike can prevent Slaked Thirsts. However, you could discard it with Deep in Thought.

[Kralik]

Final Strike can prevent Slaked Thirsts. However, you could discard it with Deep in Thought.

Slaked Thirsts is not a manuever special ability.

[Gil-Estel]

Just stop it. This deck is very, very painful to play agaisnt. The most effective is to run like crazy. The very best is the following:
Know you are going to play vs Kralik's deck, discard his conditions with Saruman's Power, preverably twice or even three times to slow him down, and then play News from the Mark 2x at site 4. Run to site 9 unharmed

[Kralik]

What about the Dunlending horde?

[Gil-Estel]

Oh and discard the nasty constantly threatening of course, haha. At the tourny I played my own Preparations deck and with an exhausted Gimli he played that most un used event in lotr: Beauty is Fading....twice, hahaha.

[Smeagollum]

Oh and discard the nasty constantly threatening of course, haha. At the tourny I played my own Preparations deck and with an exhausted Gimli he played that most un used event in lotr: Beauty is Fading....twice, hahaha.

You talking about Henk! Well we tested the wednessday before the tournament and then he had just copied some decks and was not satisfied by it. I was also suprised that he did put that one in. But hey why not. It's quite good actually

[ket_the_jet]

False. Beauty Is Fading is terrible. I would rather have one or two minions.
-wtk

[Gil-Estel]

Well, it is not in most cases. Most Nazguls decks use the pool for minions, not for events. Could be cool though to play a deck that discards both possessions and conditions just to launch that event and to discard companions, haha.

Btw, good to see you around JW, I hope you will recover fully in not a too long amount of time!

[Smeagollum]

False. Beauty Is Fading is terrible. I would rather have one or two minions.
-wtk

What do you think in combo with Enduring Nazgul?


Thx Heije, well I feel good. I'm only on fluent food, which is horrible and I can't eat much with such gastronomic band.

[MuadDib85]

I have played against Kralik's deck once. With Ents and Radagast I moved from site 1 - 4 with little resistance. He then declared game with no hope of catching me because constantly threatening was not in play and no shadow cards were left in his deck.
I think that is the easiest way to beat this deck, not worry about his freeps and try to win by getting to site 9 first.
Maybe not using beneath the mountains until constantly threatening is in hand would prevent any potential 1-4 moves.

[Kralik]

...And I take a crushing defeat vs. Ents + Radagast at site 1... :p

Called the game after my opponent's first turn: end at site 4 and me without any Shadow conditions or cards left.

[Cw0rk]

If you got defeated by ents, let me suggest you to add The Number must be few.

[sharkey]

Wow, 8 pages of responses. Biggest thread in this sub-forum I think.

[Witchkingx5]

Wow, 8 pages of responses. Biggest thread in this sub-forum I think.

Yeah, cus' of this whole quiz-thing... (which was pretty cool, btw )

[DeadCeLL]

You cant discard your deck with BtM unless you a dwarf weapon in your discard pile to play.  There has to be a valid target when the cost of the action is payed.

[MuadDib85]

You cant discard your deck with BtM unless you a dwarf weapon in your discard pile to play.  There has to be a valid target when the cost of the action is payed.

You are wrong. You can discard your entire deck with BTM even if you have no dwarven weapons in your deck at all.

[Gil-Estel]

MuadDib is right, and this has been debated many times before. You can perform an action as far as you can. You have to meet the requirements, and by discarding 3 cards you do.

[Sam, Great Elf Warrior]

False. Beauty Is Fading is terrible. I would rather have one or two minions.
-wtk

What do you think in combo with Enduring Nazgul?

I wonder if you could make a deck that combos Beauty is Fading with Saruman's Power and Isengard Smith/Ulaire Cantea, FTW, and maybe some copies of Stampeded with a condition for possessions played in the Fellowship phase. Basically, use Isengard Smith in Regroup, then use Stampeded/Cantea if possessions are played in the Fellowship phase, then Saruman's Power in Shadow and multiple copies of Beauty is Fading in Maneuver to take out their key companions (especially since many decks have only one copy of key companions and no way to get them back). Maybe throw in some Hollowing of Isengard/ Winged and Ominous to save up for more Beauty is Fading. Maybe also use News of Mordor because you can.

[Witchkingx5]

interesting idea that you have, but you're missing one point: timing. First, it's very hard to get enough twilight to play all of these cards, and Isengard Smith is Regroup if you want your Deck mono-cultural. But anyway, nice idea, Samy!

[Kralik]

Versus this particular deck, twilight is a non-issue.

[ket_the_jet]

Sam, I like your idea, but those are a lot of separate parts of different cultures and the stars would really have to align for you to be able to do something like that more than once or twice...ever.
-wtk

[DeadCeLL]

You cant discard your deck with BtM unless you a dwarf weapon in your discard pile to play.  There has to be a valid target when the cost of the action is payed.

You are wrong. You can discard your entire deck with BTM even if you have no dwarven weapons in your deck at all.

Taken from Page 11 of the Comprehensive Rules 4.0:
"If an action plays a card from your hand (or discard pile) as part of its effect, then that card must be in your hand (or discard pile) before you can begin to perform that action.
i.e. The Orc you play with They Are Coming ("Shadow: Discard 3 cards from hand to play a ? Orc from your discard pile.") cannot be one of the cards you discarded from your hand to pay the cost of that special ability.
If you meet all the requirements and pay all the costs for playing a card, you may play that card even if the card will have no effect. Exception: If you perform an action that has playing a card from hand or discard pile as part of its effect, you must play that card."

[DeadCeLL]

^ id say that it says quite clearly you cannot discard the cards unless you play a dwarf weapon.

[ket_the_jet]

To expand from that paragraph from the CRD:

If an action plays a card from your hand (or discard pile) as part of its effect, then that card must be in your hand (or discard pile) before you can begin to perform that action.

The Orc you play with They Are Coming ("Shadow: Discard 3 cards from hand to play a Orc from your discard pile.") cannot be one of the cards you discarded from your hand to pay the cost of that special ability.

If you meet all the requirements and pay all the costs for playing a card, you may play that card even if the card will have no effect. Exception: If you perform an action that has playing a card from hand or discard pile as part of its effect, you must play that card. This exception applies to all kinds of actions and all the different ways you can play a card (except playing a card directly from your draw deck).

Well, there is always Ever My Heart Rises to discard the whole deck.
-wtk

[Sam, Great Elf Warrior]

I think that's too broad an interpretation; based on the example in the clarification, I think it was intended to say that if you discard a card to pay the costs of the action, you can't play the card you just discarded as the effect of that action.

So if one of the cards you discard from the top of your draw deck for BtM is, say Gimli's Battle Axe, you can't use it to play that copy of Gimli's Battle Axe. This is all that that rule is intended to prevent.

As long as you're not playing a weapon as part of the effect of BtM, the rule about actions playing cards from your discard pile doesn't apply because you're not actually playing a card from your discard pile.

[Elessar's Socks]

If you perform an action that has playing a card from hand or discard pile as part of its effect, you must play that card. This exception applies to all kinds of actions and all the different ways you can play a card (except playing a card directly from your draw deck).

This is a separate ruling from the one with the They Are Coming example. From the 9/3/2002 CRD (old, but the explanation remains the same):

You may not use the action on Beneath the Mountains if you don't have a Dwarven weapon in your discard pile. You may not play Morgul Gates if you don't have a Nazgûl in your hand.

Though like Ket mentioned, there is always EMHR.

[Kralik]

Thanks for the find ES! I guess that settles my question on whether to use Beneath the Mountains vs. Ever My Heart Rises. I hope all of the players I beat with this deck will forgive me for the oversight. I got the Beneath the Mountains idea from c10ckw0rk here, and didn't realize it wasn't legal.

[ket_the_jet]

Thanks for the find ES!

I think DeadCeLL deserves some credit for the find. He is the reason I looked up what I did, and ES responded to that.

For what it is worth, I'm pretty sure you don't have to forfeit any of those wins. Unless you genuinely believe that at any point, made the difference!
-wtk

[MuadDib85]

You cant discard your deck with BtM unless you a dwarf weapon in your discard pile to play.  There has to be a valid target when the cost of the action is payed.

You are wrong.

I stand corrected.

[Kralik]

I think DeadCeLL deserves some credit for the find. He is the reason I looked up what I did, and ES responded to that.

True, he does. at least.
I have seen many people use Beneath the Mountains in FotR block to cycle and get dwarf weapons... even without weapons yet in discard. I think the clarification on this card needs to be spread.

As for Ever My Heart Rises... it has a lot of potential for helping my Freeps, actually. Without Beneath the Mountains, I don't think I'll "waste" a card slot with a axe at all.

Clarification Edit: Kudos to DeadCeLL for raising the issue, but also to ES for finding an older CRD I didn't have yet.

[Cw0rk]

I got the Beneath the Mountains idea from c10ckw0rk here, and didn't realize it wasn't legal.

I'm such a cheater.

Seriously, I had no idea this was illegal haha.

[Kralik]

I'm such a cheater.

Seriously, I had no idea this was illegal haha.

Me neither... as I said, I had seen it used many times in Fellowship block decks. They Are Coming + Beneath the Mountains + massive deck.

[ket_the_jet]

So, have you tried it yet with Ever My Heart Rises?

And what Shadow card would you intend to take out (if you did indeed remove Dwarven Axe)?
-wtk

[Gil-Estel]

Wow..we all stand corrected, haha. Nice catch indeed!

[DeadCeLL]

sorry to bust the bubble on your deck, but than yes EMHR does work, so it all still works out

[ket_the_jet]

sorry to bust the bubble on your deck, but than yes EMHR does work, so it all still works out

I don't think you should apologize for correcting something that was against the rules. It makes the community tighter and improves deck lists.
-wtk

[Sam, Great Elf Warrior]

sorry to bust the bubble on your deck, but than yes EMHR does work, so it all still works out

I don't think you should apologize for correcting something that was against the rules. It makes the community tighter and improves deck lists.
-wtk

Yeah, that was a good catch there.

[King89]

omg... what happened, did i miss a primery school "lets change our names" party?

[Witchkingx5]

omg... what happened, did i miss a primery school "lets change our names" party?

Something like that, Kralik changed into Krrrrrralik, and then I said Kralik means Rabbit in Czechish, so he's czech rabbit now. And btw, look here.

[King89]

omg... what happened, did i miss a primery school "lets change our names" party?

Something like that, Kralik changed into Krrrrrralik, and then I said Kralik means Rabbit in Czechish, so he's czech rabbit now. And btw, look here.

awesome, haha

[Kralik]

I had a chance to play this deck again... first time on GCCG in about 5-6 weeks. EMHR did give out too much twilight but I was lucky and only lost Eowyn LoI at site 2. Gandalf died to 2x Too Great and Terrible at site 5. I still feel like early sites are the riskiest and I need to be set up quicker. So, I pared the deck down a bit to 35/35:

-- Beneath the Mountains (illegal)
+ Ever My Heart Rises (works)

-- Glamdring (nice to look at their hand, but it seems to be discarded very easily)
+ Gandalf's Staff (helps vs. Easterlings if needed and... Too Great and Terrible, grr...)

-- Durin's Secret (I used to play 3x, then 2x, but now it seems 1x is fine for my normal move pattern)
-- Gimli's Battle Axe, Trusted Weapon (no point without Beneath the Mountains)

If I cut out any more cards, I might go with Not the First Halfling and Gandalf's Staff to get it down to 33. But it seems OK as it is... especially since EMHR makes the "starting hand" 14, not 8.

I think my strategy vs. Freeps Ents would be to get a Constantly Threatening in hand, discard my deck, and then swarm after a triple. Seems like it would work if they didn't know I had it and I played it after their triple with plenty of twilight. I would play my Freeps as normal and try to hit them on site 9. They would have to triple twice to beat me there anyway.

[Smeagollum]

I had a chance to play this deck again... first time on GCCG in about 5-6 weeks. EMHR did give out too much twilight but I was lucky and only lost Eowyn LoI at site 2. Gandalf died to 2x Too Great and Terrible at site 5. I still feel like early sites are the riskiest and I need to be set up quicker. So, I pared the deck down a bit to 35/35:

-- Beneath the Mountains (illegal)
+ Ever My Heart Rises (works)

-- Glamdring (nice to look at their hand, but it seems to be discarded very easily)
+ Gandalf's Staff (helps vs. Easterlings if needed and... Too Great and Terrible, grr...)

-- Durin's Secret (I used to play 3x, then 2x, but now it seems 1x is fine for my normal move pattern)
-- Gimli's Battle Axe, Trusted Weapon (no point without Beneath the Mountains)

If I cut out any more cards, I might go with Not the First Halfling and Gandalf's Staff to get it down to 33. But it seems OK as it is... especially since EMHR makes the "starting hand" 14, not 8.

I think my strategy vs. Freeps Ents would be to get a Constantly Threatening in hand, discard my deck, and then swarm after a triple. Seems like it would work if they didn't know I had it and I played it after their triple with plenty of twilight. I would play my Freeps as normal and try to hit them on site 9. They would have to triple twice to beat me there anyway.

Have tried your decks in an encouter with Isengard Warg-Riders... It went bad.... real bad..., because of the skirmish ability canceling....

[Kralik]

Have tried your decks in an encouter with Isengard Warg-Riders... It went bad.... real bad..., because of the skirmish ability canceling....

You couldn't kill or exhaust them before the skirmish? High vitality minions are usually the best... you can exhaust ONE of them at least and have Eowyn use that one. 4x Slaked Thirsts + 6 Archery... I don't see how you couldn't take them out.

Usually I try to avoid skirmishes altogether, unless I need to use the Ring for burdens. Could you explain what happened that didn't let you win with directed wounds?

[Smeagollum]

Have tried your decks in an encouter with Isengard Warg-Riders... It went bad.... real bad..., because of the skirmish ability canceling....

You couldn't kill or exhaust them before the skirmish? High vitality minions are usually the best... you can exhaust ONE of them at least and have Eowyn use that one. 4x Slaked Thirsts + 6 Archery... I don't see how you couldn't take them out.

Usually I try to avoid skirmishes altogether, unless I need to use the Ring for burdens. Could you explain what happened that didn't let you win with directed wounds?

Not on site 2 or 3... Foul horde + warg and I had no support up yet... I couldn't give directed wounds.
Played 5x and only one came through to site 4 and further. And that was the one I didn't play anything in the beginning.

[Kralik]

5x vs. wargs then? Ouch. What cards were you grabbing with Dear Friends?

[Smeagollum]

5x vs. wargs then? Ouch. What cards were you grabbing with Dear Friends?

I didn't came further then site 4, except for one time and that's the only time I had any Dear friends in hand!! If I remember correctly I did put some gandie-cards and aragorn's bow beneath my drawdeck with dear friends. You know it's hard to discard cards with smeagol if you can't use a skirmish special ability. It's even harder if you also don't get a gollum on time so you'd be able to discard cards in the shadow.

[Kralik]

I think you may be playing it wrong. First of all, you should have ALL Dear Friends every turn once you get Birthday Present. Odds are high that you'll get either 1 Birthday Present or 1 Dear Friends in your opening hand. In the case of the latter, at least you can get your setup by site 2. Secondly, you can use Smeagol to discard even if you don't get the strength boost because of warg canceling (and, you could even use him during another companion's skirmish).

It seems that with starting draw (8) + mulligan (6) + EMHR (6) you have GREAT* odds for getting Birthday Present, and then it's rock and roll. Site 2 is the worst threat.

Depending on what I draw in my first hand + EMHR, I stack something like:

Turn 1: Birthday Present, A Light In His Mind, The Shire Countryside x2, Preparations, Greyhame
Turn 2: Greenleaf, Aiglos, Aragorn RotN, Aragorn's Bow, The Shire Countryside, Durin's Secret
Turn 3: (Play Eowyn or Durin with Greyhame), Pathfinder, The Shire Countryside, Durin's Secret, Gandalf's Staff, Roll of Thunder, Deep in Thought.
Turn 4: (Play Eowyn or Durin with Greyhame) Just draw cards for Smeagol, stack nothing unless I'm stopping before 9 for some odd reason.

But of course that's assuming no starting Freeps cards. I modify my strategy according to my what I start with and what my opponent plays (grabbing companions I want more, or Deep in Thought early, etc).

EDIT: *Just did some calculations... without mulligan it's about 60%, with mulligan about 75%. Nice.

[Smeagollum]

I think you may be playing it wrong. First of all, you should have ALL Dear Friends every turn once you get Birthday Present. Odds are high that you'll get either 1 Birthday Present or 1 Dear Friends in your opening hand. In the case of the latter, at least you can get your setup by site 2. Secondly, you can use Smeagol to discard even if you don't get the strength boost because of warg canceling (and, you could even use him during another companion's skirmish).

It seems that with starting draw (8) + mulligan (6) + EMHR (6) you have GREAT* odds for getting Birthday Present, and then it's rock and roll. Site 2 is the worst threat.

Depending on what I draw in my first hand + EMHR, I stack something like:

Turn 1: Birthday Present, A Light In His Mind, The Shire Countryside x2, Preparations, Greyhame
Turn 2: Greenleaf, Aiglos, Aragorn RotN, Aragorn's Bow, The Shire Countryside, Durin's Secret
Turn 3: (Play Eowyn or Durin with Greyhame), Pathfinder, The Shire Countryside, Durin's Secret, Gandalf's Staff, Roll of Thunder, Deep in Thought.
Turn 4: (Play Eowyn or Durin with Greyhame) Just draw cards for Smeagol, stack nothing unless I'm stopping before 9 for some odd reason.

But of course that's assuming no starting Freeps cards. I modify my strategy according to my what I start with and what my opponent plays (grabbing companions I want more, or Deep in Thought early, etc).

EDIT: *Just did some calculations... without mulligan it's about 60%, with mulligan about 75%. Nice.

Well start calculations again... I suppose....
Sure you can use smeagol gametext, but unfortunately he doesn't get the str-bonus.
First time I played I gave to much twillight, but after that I didn't gave more then 8 for the shadow, but then I still had either Sharku, Warg-captain + Sharku's Warg + Isengard Axe or Foul Horde + Isengard Axe + Warg, against me. Believe me Dear Friends doesn't help on site 2 against a damage +1 fierce minion; it meant that each time on site 2 there were 2 comps dead: Frodo and Smeagol.
Even Mulligan doesn't help against that, besides that I mostly had gandie-cards as freeps in hand.. also with a mulligan. And without Gandie that's even more worst.

The shadow on the other hand worked great. Used it with some other deck's and it was just great.... Played Sauron 2x in one game, never happened to me with the reflections sauron:)

Btw if you want to use EMHR to it's full potential then you might concider Axe of Erebor. Would not put in Gandie's staff in that case, so you can stay on 35/35.

[Kralik]

Sure you can use smeagol gametext, but unfortunately he doesn't get the str-bonus.
First time I played I gave to much twillight, but after that I didn't gave more then 8 for the shadow, but then I still had either Sharku, Warg-captain + Sharku's Warg + Isengard Axe or Foul Horde + Isengard Axe + Warg, against me. Believe me Dear Friends doesn't help on site 2 against a damage +1 fierce minion; it meant that each time on site 2 there were 2 comps dead: Frodo and Smeagol.

Again, Smeagollum, I think you are missing the point. I keep saying this because of responses you made earlier about how losing 20 cards to discard would mess this deck up. The point is that YOU will discard your ENTIRE draw deck at site 1. Therefore, you are relying on Freeps to win unless you get a couple key Shadow cards. Also, you can draw whichever cards you need. I don't see how the Shadow would be useful in other deck types.

IF you can survive site 2--and I admit that it is a challenge--you should be OK vs. Wargs on site 3. The aforementioned combo of two wargs + riders won't happen at site 2 (not enough twilight). Since you have 8-10 cards to ditch from your starting hand if needed, Smeagol can fight at least one because even IF they cancel a bunch of discards, you can still be strong enough. Let's say str 14 rider... cancels 4 of your discards, but you still have enough to make Smeagol str. +6 or 9 vs. 14. Then they have an exhausted, non-fierce rider.

If you kill off Smeagol, you ruin the entire deck! Better to kill Gimli even -- at least there is another dwarf coming! Killing Frodo and Smeagol is basically conceding defeat. Anyway, if I knew I was playing vs. Wargs I'd probably try something like:

Aragorn, Ranger of the North, Aragorn's Bow, Greenleaf, Aiglos, Eowyn LoI, Preparations

For site 2-->3. Risk Enquea and exhaust a warg with archery to kill with Eowyn LoI. For example: two vitality 5 warg riders. Hit one of them four times and the other twice with archery. Exhausted rider on Eowyn, exert for 4 wounds on Shadow. Total 10 wounds = both die. Or maybe Greyhame + Roll of Thunder instead of Aragorn's Bow + Aiglos.

Why would Gandy cards in your hand hurt after mulligan? Discard them all. Also, the potential str+3-ish bonus from Axe of Erebor doesn't make it worth a card slot as Gimli isn't a fighter in this deck. Gandalf's Staff is good for emergencies... Axe of Erebor just gives a mediocre fighting companion. You won't get it in time to face the wargs anyway.

(BTW, lack of a strong starting companion was the reason I wished I could keep using Beneath the Mountains... I would have used Dwarven Axe, though)

[Smeagollum]

Oh I agree with you that site 2 is a problem. So you say I should have let Gimli die instead of Smeagol. I think that might work, but still in my opinion the weakest part is to survive till site 4. After that I agree with you.

Axe of Erebor makes sure you can play EMHR again. Which I think is good.

[Kralik]

Axe of Erebor makes sure you can play EMHR again. Which I think is good.

There is no reason to play EMHR again when you have no draw deck! I give up.

[Smeagollum]

Axe of Erebor makes sure you can play EMHR again. Which I think is good.

There is no reason to play EMHR again when you have no draw deck! I give up.

You create your own drawdeck again with dear friends I might think?

[Kralik]

No, all 6 cards are drawn to hand on reconcile. Even if they stayed there, EMHR would stack them all and then you couldn't get to them since you can't discard the top card of a non-existent deck.

[legolas3333]

so played this deck for the first time today, the guy cussed me out for cheating with birthday present then quit

[Kralik]

so played this deck for the first time today, the guy cussed me out for cheating with birthday present then quit

Should I post a link to the CRD ruling on it?

EDIT: In the CRD_080905.pdf here.

[Gil-Estel]

so played this deck for the first time today, the guy cussed me out for cheating with birthday present then quit

Hilarious!

[Mythdracon]

Where did you meet this angry player? 

[Smeagollum]

Kral, must say you're right about the wargriders. I did play it now with emhr and it was great against it. But then we started again and I was confronted by Moria (2x with different results). First time it just seemed that i got the wrong cards every time. I didn't get a slaked thirst on my conditions. which were there... Second time everything went a bit better and there was no problem. Gandalf's staff is indeed a must, but I certainly would throw in an axe of erenbor. It's great to play emhr a second time on site 6.

[Kralik]

Smeag,

Why no Slaked Thirsts? Since they are all in discard AND you play Preparations on your first use of Birthday Present, you should have it ready for your site 3 triple.

I still don't see the merit of replaying EMHR when you have no draw deck. There are better cards to stack, and since you must triple from 3-6 and then 6-9 to win, there's no time to waste fiddling with Axe of Erebor. You only have four turns, so you'd have to do it this way:

Turn 1) Stack Axe of Erebor.
Turn 2) Use Axe of Erebor to discard EMHR.
Turn 3) Stack EMHR.
Turn 4) Play EMHR.

And by turn 4, you are tripling to 9 and don't need any other cards. All that BESIDES the fact that it is useless. Literally useless. Anyhow, Moria isn't too much of a threat if they play Cave Troll or Balrog. If not, Deep in Thought (kill Goblin Armory, They Are Coming) + directed archery takes them down.

Forgot about EMHR as a chance to get an early Slaked Thirsts... nice. And I typically neglect stacking extra cards on Preparations, but it would be a great whammy at site 9, since I almost always have tons of regroup exerts to spare.

[Smeagollum]

Smeag,

Why no Slaked Thirsts? Since they are all in discard AND you play Preparations on your first use of Birthday Present, you should have it ready for your site 3 triple.

I still don't see the merit of replaying EMHR when you have no draw deck. There are better cards to stack, and since you must triple from 3-6 and then 6-9 to win, there's no time to waste fiddling with Axe of Erebor. You only have four turns, so you'd have to do it this way:

Turn 1) Stack Axe of Erebor.
Turn 2) Use Axe of Erebor to discard EMHR.
Turn 3) Stack EMHR.
Turn 4) Play EMHR.

And by turn 4, you are tripling to 9 and don't need any other cards. All that BESIDES the fact that it is useless. Literally useless. Anyhow, Moria isn't too much of a threat if they play Cave Troll or Balrog. If not, Deep in Thought (kill Goblin Armory, They Are Coming) + directed archery takes them down.

Forgot about EMHR as a chance to get an early Slaked Thirsts... nice. And I typically neglect stacking extra cards on Preparations, but it would be a great whammy at site 9, since I almost always have tons of regroup exerts to spare.

Well that was not how it exactly went.... I wanted to cycle.. Played emhr on site 1 further nothing, so I thought.. yeah cycle with smeagol... wrong.. he didn't play anything so there was no maneuver, archer, skirmish or so ever and I didn't had anyc captured by the ring or smeagol in hand. So for deep in thought I needed Gandalf and that didn't come as well. Emhr on site 1 with ST is a big help, but didn't happen unfortunately as well in that game against Moria. Just a bad draw, because the game after that no problem...

In turn 3 you play all your slaked thirsts. Then in turn 4 you put them beneath your empty drawdeck and then play emhr so for no exertions you've got them all stacked. I know the wounds shouldn't be a problem, but I think it's nicer not to have them so that you can heal Ari, Greenleaf and Eowyn. You can do it without, but then the shadowcards stay stacked on it and it's nicer if sauron is not stacked That's the only reason actually.

Don't shout to hard about healing... because the guy I played did use 4x sarumans power in a different deck.. I got three of them.. turn 1, turn 2 and turn 3.. so that took some more turns...And he isn't even a great player, but you can count on it something you don't expect at all or just 2x in a deck.. he got 4 and he allways to manage to play them fast. With my own decks I normally win 7 out of ten from him and he's a slow walker.. very slow to be honest. against the wargridergames I needed one extra turn to win, not because I couldn't handle the minions, but because of the lack of shire countryside after discarding them because of saruman's power. not nice.

[Mythdracon]

Maybe I'm not seeing it because I'm ignorant, but how would you win skirmishes if many companions are low strength? I didn't see many strength pumps....O_o

I'm supposing archery...but wouldn't there be situations where you don't have enough wounds to place, even with Slaked Thirsts usage?

[Smeagollum]

Maybe I'm not seeing it because I'm ignorant, but how would you win skirmishes if many companions are low strength? I didn't see many strength pumps....O_o

I'm supposing archery...but wouldn't there be situations where you don't have enough wounds to place, even with Slaked Thirsts usage?

You almost don't skirmish. Exhaust minions with Slaked thirst and then kill them with archery or with Eowyns ability. It will leave maybe 4 minions left but then you use smeagol's ability and discard your hand loose innitiative and then you ought to heal  with shire countryside about 4x, because you remove a burden because of losing innitiative. Then you can have the strong minions anytime.

[Kralik]

In turn 3 you play all your slaked thirsts. Then in turn 4 you put them beneath your empty drawdeck and then play emhr so for no exertions you've got them all stacked. I know the wounds shouldn't be a problem, but I think it's nicer not to have them so that you can heal Ari, Greenleaf and Eowyn. You can do it without, but then the shadowcards stay stacked on it and it's nicer if sauron is not stacked That's the only reason actually.

OK, good point -- I hadn't thought of that. However, it seems it would only be helpful if your opponent doesn't RUN -- and I've yet to play a pokey opponent with this deck (after all, if I have no Shadow, why wait?). I always stack Slaked Thirsts on Preparations ASAP. Since I outlined my Dear Friends typical stacks and I only have 4 turns, stacking EMHR and 4x Slaked Thirsts isn't possible for me if I'm going to triple twice.

Saruman's Power is indeed a pain... I've faced it three times and made it, even without healing. I always keep a Birthday Present in hand and usually play The Shire Countryside in stages. Mythdracon, since your healed Fellowship can put out 14 wounds a move besides Eowyn, skirmishes usually don't happen. A few strong minions are actually better than many weak minions, because they usually have a higher vitality. And when you triple, your opponent starts to run out of options because their hand clogs with Freeps. And then there's always Not the First Halfling.

EDIT: Actually, my previous objection on EMHR is still valid. Smeagollum, please answer: How can you use EMHR with Slaked Thirsts if all cards are drawn to your hand for your reconcile?

[Smeagollum]

Kral,

Don't quite sure if I understand your question correctly. But this is how I use EMHR: Start with the gametext of the site to get EMHR. The twillight is indeed a bit risky, but you convinced me that in the worst case just one comp (a certain frodo) can die. I hope that with using emhr gametext there's a slaked thirsts on emhr. I only take the fs cards into hand which I think are usefull to play (aragorn, Gandalf, axe of erebor or birthday present or shire countryside. So I leave st on emhr if it's there. The cards who are usefull (allready metioned) to play I play and then I walk and discard my entire hand with smeagol's gametext.

Against people who are moving slow there's no need to tripple and take risk (a third move is still a risk, for instance if people know to discard all conditions (except preperations)) I only move a third time if I'm sure that there's no danger at all. You might play against people who like to move fast.. I almost only encounter people who like to move slowwwwwwwwwwwww (if I play some people I really have the chance that a match takes about 11/2 hour. Most times we play multiplay with 4 people. We start at 20.30.... and we end about 24.00 and I'm the fastest player (just ask Heije about the tournament in zwolle (allready played 4 matches while others were still busy with the 2nd).
But back to topic...Emhr is more usefull when you play it for a 2nd time. Make sure emhr is in your hand use birthday present for dear friends. Use dear friends to get slaked thirsts as you remaining drawdeck and then play emhr and put all slaked thirst on it.

I hope this iw what you asked?

If you doný mind I go to sleep now. So I might not respond immidiatly. It's still day here, but didn't slept at all, because my cat is missing and for the most part of the night and day I went looking for him. I'm really in big stress about this.. sorry it needs to get out of me.. Hope you people don't mind.. You see 2 1/2 years ago another cat became invalid and evetually i had to let him sleep in. When that happened I became really depressed... didn't want to act suicide, but also didn't want to live.. so I'm really scared now that I'm losing darth (cat's name).With an hour rest I can start searching again.

[Kralik]

You are playing the deck completely differently than I, which is what I have been saying several times now. The key point of the deck is:

Use EMHR to discard your entire draw deck.

Again, Smeagollum, I think you are missing the point. I keep saying this because of responses you made earlier about how losing 20 cards to discard would mess this deck up. The point is that YOU will discard your ENTIRE draw deck at site 1. Therefore, you are relying on Freeps to win unless you get a couple key Shadow cards. Also, you can draw whichever cards you need. I don't see how the Shadow would be useful in other deck types.

Otherwise we are talking about two completely different things. Frankly, I don't see how the deck could be competitive played any other way. Only one copy of each companion and no way to get key cards = suicide!

Against people who are moving slow there's no need to tripple and take risk (a third move is still a risk, for instance if people know to discard all conditions (except preperations)) I only move a third time if I'm sure that there's no danger at all. You might play against people who like to move fast.. I almost only encounter people who like to move slowwwwwwwwwwwww

The point IS to triple. If you have no draw deck, you get no Shadow cards and your opponent will run.

Hope you find your cat.

[Cw0rk]

Smeagollum, use Ever My Heart Rises to discard your entire deck once you have Birthday Present. Then you can grab what you need with Dear Friends.

Spot a Dwarf and discard the top card of your draw deck for no effect.

[Smeagollum]

Smeagollum, use Ever My Heart Rises to discard your entire deck once you have Birthday Present. Then you can grab what you need with Dear Friends.

Spot a Dwarf and discard the top card of your draw deck for no effect.

That's allowed?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now I understand what you mean.... didn't think about that... for no result... Kralik put in axe of erebor.. you'll play it 2nd, 3rd and 4th turn.. no worries about that!!! how i missed that one.. and me figguring out how he could discard the entire dreck and tinking it doesn't make sense. you noughty Kralik misusing decent cards   Yep I love it! But people be nice learn dutch.. it would help in communications with me

@ Kralik Btw have not found Darth yet. Didn't went to sleep.... went searching, but there is some result.. somebody thought he had seen a cat according to my description... and also on a place where I suspect he might went. In that case he has to cross one large street, but he might be affraid for traffic.. so it might that he waits untill the evening before he returns.. I hope so...in any case after Man united against Bayern I will start looking again... and if I can't control myself even during the footballmatch. Think I walked searching about 7 hours today...

[Gil-Estel]

Veel succes JW.....

[Smeagollum]

Veel succes JW.....

Thx went looking during the match, just for about twenty minutes. I went when united scored 2-0 and came back when United scored 3-0. No results... Well at least you guys kive me sort of distraction.. thx

Oh I'm so glad it's raining now, because don't like rain at all.. so I hope...

[Witchkingx5]

Arrggghhh, Olic made this 1-3 now and then Rafael, this nooob got his card. Nooooo! ManU mustn't loose!

And btw, I'm really sorry for your cat...  

[Cw0rk]

Arrggghhh, Olic made this 1-3 now and then Rafael, this nooob got his card. Nooooo! ManU mustn't loose!

And btw, I'm really sorry for your cat... 

You guys are going off topic here.

PS: Manchester Utd FAIL

[Smeagollum]

Guy's

I'm Happy!!!! He's back!!!! Darth returned to me about a half an hour ago!!! I can sleep again!

Kral , wk and heije± Thx for the moral support!!! How many  do you wanna have

[Gil-Estel]

Gelukkig maar..I can imagine your heart will continue to rise (to stay slightly on topic)

[Sam, Great Elf Warrior]

Guy's

I'm Happy!!!! He's back!!!! Darth returned to me about a half an hour ago!!! I can sleep again!

Kral , wk and heije± Thx for the moral support!!! How many  do you wanna have

Congratulations! It's great to hear that!

[Smeagollum]

Thx Sam   for you to!

Will you all believe that Darth is in kind of a coma now... He's almost only sleeping (he did ate something and I had some big hugs and since then he's sleeping). Guess he had some fantastic 2 1/2 days.. Whish I had the same feelings about it. Unfortunally for him... he'll be castrated tomorrow.

Btw Sorry that I went oftopic, maybe if needed somebody can split the topic? I hope that I didn't bother people with my concerns about my cat, but if you know my history with cats then I hope you all understand that my cat's means a lot to me (they are my children to me). Hope don't offend anybody, but to me they mean more then people (even myself and my sisters, though not my little 2 nieces (they are my (and also my sisters) highest priority))

[Kralik]

As long as it's OK with you, I don't think it's a big deal if a topic gets "off topic" for a while.

[Smeagollum]

As long as it's OK with you, I don't think it's a big deal if a topic gets "off topic" for a while.

I'm okay with it!

Back to topic people!!

Can't wait till tuesday to play this deck again now I know what you mean by discarding the whole drawdeck. Btw tomorrow we have special lotr-event in Amsterdam with just 6 people: We'll have a tt-draft, so unfortunally I can't play DSSODF tomorrow.

[TelTura]

i finally got a chance to play against this deck (thanks to l3333) and won....hehehe, killed frodo on site two, he couldn't play his shire countryside.

[legolas3333]

yeah that was stupid

i hate the witch-king

[Kralik]

If Frodo dies before Gandalf is out, it's all over anyway.

A nice strong minion will wreck this deck at site 2 or maybe 3. Castamir + Raider Halberd comes to mind...

[Smeagollum]

If Frodo dies before Gandalf is out, it's all over anyway.

A nice strong minion will wreck this deck at site 2 or maybe 3. Castamir + Raider Halberd comes to mind...

Wel against such a treath I made some adjustments to make it a bit stronger on site 2 or 3. Let me know if you think it's functional. I went back to 37 cards for one suprise for the shadow. Here it is:

1x Smeagol, Poor Creature (starting)
1x Gimli, Feared Axeman (starting)
1x Merry, Friend to Sam (starting)
1x Dwarf Guard (starting)
1x Sam, Son of Hamfast
1x Legolas, Greenleaf (P)
1x Gandalf, Greyhame
1x Aragorn, Ranger of the North (P)

4x Birthday Present
3x Dear Friends
1x No Help for It
1x A Light In His Mind
4x The Shire Countryside

1x Pathfinder*
1x Durin's Secret
1x Deep in Thought
1x Roll of Thunder
1x We Shall Meet Again Soon

1x Aragorn's Bow
1x Gandalf's Staff
1x Aiglos
1x Axe of Erebor

1x Ever My Heart Rises
1x Not the First Halfling
1x Preparations
4x Slaked Thirsts

Altenative take out Dwarven Guard and either Aiglos or Axe of Erebor for Durin III, Dwarven Lord and Pippin, Wearer of Black and Silver or Pippin, Woolly-footed Rascal (Starting).

[Kralik]

Starting without Sam is suicide IMO. You have to bid high to start and THEN you'll add four burdens with Birthday Present. Removing Eowyn LoI weakens the deck a lot as well. How will you deal with High Vantage, Broad-Bladed Sword, etc. without her?

[legolas3333]

my version uses linnar instead of durin and starts him, that way i can survive an attea or toldea at site 2

[Kralik]

Could always try not starting Gimli, as you won't need him until you have Preparations down... Linnar vs. Durin is a good call.

How about:

Linnar
Pippin, WoBaS
Merry, FtS

Knocked on the Head

Discard Pippin when no longer needed, draw Knocked on the Head to discard Merry once you have the other companions and Rule of 9 limit. Or maybe Merry, Learned Guide?

But still, I don't think starting without Sam, SoH is wise.

[Smeagollum]

Could always try not starting Gimli, as you won't need him until you have Preparations down... Linnar vs. Durin is a good call.

How about:

Linnar
Pippin, WoBaS
Merry, FtS

Knocked on the Head

Discard Pippin when no longer needed, draw Knocked on the Head to discard Merry once you have the other companions and Rule of 9 limit. Or maybe Merry, Learned Guide?

But still, I don't think starting without Sam, SoH is wise.

It depends on what you want. If youwanna bid high Sam is a must. If you bit like a gambler you bid low and hope that your opponent doesn't start if he starts then you should trust on your shadow; I thought you're trusting your shadow would stop your opponent?

[Kralik]

Not at all. I hope that the Shadow will discourage my opponent from doubling or tripling. And in any case, when I add 4 burdens aside from my starting bid, I'd better have Sam...

...and Sam is necessary for No Help for It. So without him I will have 8 burdens at site 2.

I'm not a gambler when it comes to the likes of Shotgun Enquea or self-corruption.

[Smeagollum]

Not at all. I hope that the Shadow will discourage my opponent from doubling or tripling. And in any case, when I add 4 burdens aside from my starting bid, I'd better have Sam...

...and Sam is necessary for No Help for It. So without him I will have 8 burdens at site 2.

I'm not a gambler when it comes to the likes of Shotgun Enquea or self-corruption.

But that's when you bid. You also can bid nothing and not need Sam immediatly, but then you've the chance your deck will be a bit slower. So not that I don't concur with you, but I'm looking for something to make this deck a bit more solid for against big monsters.

[Kralik]

No, you misunderstand.

Bid . Add 1 burden for Smeagol.

Site 1 (Fellowship): 4 Burdens for Birthday Present
Site 2 (Fellowship): 4 Burdens for Birthday Present

TOTAL: 9 BURDENS by site 3. And 5 Burdens at site 2 will be enough to activate Enquea.

[Cw0rk]

The Witch-king, Morgul King x2 could be interesting on your shadow side.

You don't need that much Dunland guys anyway because you grab them with Constantly Threatening.

[Witchkingx5]

The Witch-king, Morgul King x2 could be interesting on your shadow side.

You don't need that much Dunland guys anyway because you grab them with Constantly Threatening.

I actually think that you can combine this Freeps with lots of cool Shadow cards, e.g. Shelob, Eater of Light Engine with some ORcs, as Shelob can always return.

[Kralik]

The Witch-king, Morgul King x2 could be interesting on your shadow side.

You don't need that much Dunland guys anyway because you grab them with Constantly Threatening.

Aaah, you resurrected my dead thread! I wanted to keep it under wraps.

The extra Dunland is to have a large swarm in case my opponent throws out LOTS of twilight with 9 companions. Maybe I can get a RB overwhelm. But anyway, they don't really do much as they are simply figureheads. This deck is made for a Freeps win so they serve their purpose by intimidation.

I actually think that you can combine this Freeps with lots of cool Shadow cards, e.g. Shelob, Eater of Light Engine with some ORcs, as Shelob can always return.

Sounds cool except for the likelihood that they will never be played before they are discarded from my deck. No time to setup Shelob when my deck is gone by site 1 or 2.

[Witchkingx5]

I actually think that you can combine this Freeps with lots of cool Shadow cards, e.g. Shelob, Eater of Light Engine with some ORcs, as Shelob can always return.

Sounds cool except for the likelihood that they will never be played before they are discarded from my deck. No time to setup Shelob when my deck is gone by site 1 or 2.

Yeah, there must be a possibility to play Shelob at Site one or two, and once you've got Sehlob with Web, you can also annoy your opponent with soaking up archery wounds your Dunlendings would die to.

[Kralik]

Yeah, there must be a possibility to play Shelob at Site one or two, and once you've got Sehlob with Web, you can also annoy your opponent with soaking up archery wounds your Dunlendings would die to.

Heh, now that can be fun. I don't think packing orcs would help though. Sadly Shelob will most likely stay at str 8. Another thought though--

This deck works well versus Freeps that cannot cycle. More often than not, when I have actually had Constantly Threatening or Evil-Smelling Fens in play, I play nothing so that my opponent's hand clogs with Freeps events that they cannot play. Thus it becomes easier for my own Freeps to run.

[Witchkingx5]

True, hand clog can be really horrible...

Anyway, what youbt some other recycling freeps cards to set up a little Shadow? Maybe just one or two, but as mentioned before, having some "endless" engines like Shelob, EoL + Web can be pretty useful when you decked out.

[ket_the_jet]

I broke this deck out for a few games on Gemp. Thanks for the memories.
-wtk

Want to watch the game? Cheers:
http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=chet manly$1qrsgdd7j0t64mys

[lmiller]

Could you pair this deck with a tentacle swarm. Use gollum and evil smelling fens to bring back the watcher in the water and then play all your discarded tentacles.

[Kralik]

I broke this deck out for a few games on Gemp. Thanks for the memories.
-wtk

Want to watch the game? Cheers:
http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=chet manly$1qrsgdd7j0t64mys

Glad to hear it passes the Gemp legality checks!

Watching it now -- that was quite a nice starting hand.

EDIT: Finished watching. Too bad you lost Eowyn early, but otherwise it all went well. Nice finish with Deep in Thought! It's a good show for anyone who wants to see what this is all about (though the early discarding was slow to watch...)

Could you pair this deck with a tentacle swarm. Use gollum and evil smelling fens to bring back the watcher in the water and then play all your discarded tentacles.

The point of this deck is to crush with your Free Peoples. While you might get the Shadow cards you need before discarding your deck, you'd only get one shot at tentacles, which don't work consistently in Movie.

[bibfortuna25]

Just a question, what do you do if you don't have Constantly Threatening or any other minion recursion in your hand? Your opponent would just get a free ride to site 9 if you don't have something to slow him down.

[Kralik]

Just a question, what do you do if you don't have Constantly Threatening or any other minion recursion in your hand? Your opponent would just get a free ride to site 9 if you don't have something to slow him down.

It doesn't matter. Did you see the move schedule I proposed? You just triple to 9. The only threat would be if your opponent can also triple (Radagast, etc.) If they haven't seen this deck before and they don't double every turn, you have even more leeway.

You start: 1-2
Opponent (running): 1-3
You: 2-3
Opponent: 3-5
You: 3-6
Opponent 5-7
You: 6-9

If your opponent only moves 1-2 the first turn and even 2-3 (sometimes if you either get minions or they aren't sure WHAT you're doing), it just gives you more time to setup.

Also, quite often it's just as well NOT to play any minions even if you can, because your opponent's hand will tend to clog as they can't use various Freeps Manuever/Archery/Skirmish events they hold. I've played this deck probably 15-20 times, and the triple move is the usually easiest because they rarely have much to play after emptying their hand of Shadow for the first and second move.

The real threat to this deck is that key characters will be killed before site 3 because of the immense amount of twilight for relatively little safety it generates before then. That and getting supremely unlucky with early card draws.

[neopium]

Hi !

I'm resurrecting the thread once more :-)

I built your deck in real life because I really liked the concept. I am still learning how to use it and had some very bad surprises at first attempts.

For instance, I did not have a second birthday present in hand or draw deck and then had to face Castamir of Umbar and Discovered at site 2. Worst case scenario. I lost birthday present and two companions and had an empty draw deck!

Now I always get a second birthday present in hand with dear friends.

One of the main weaknesses I found with this deck is that the setup is very slow (and if you encounter saruman's power, you have to start setting up again). If your opponent is running like crazy, you may not be able to catch him.

The second weakness I saw is when my opponent killed Sam with Shotgun Enquea... No more A light in his mind, no more the shire countryside and useless No help for it.

And when you lose the amazing healing power, it's quite hard to triple move. Without burden removal techniques, you are in trouble as well...

Did you think about ways to prevent this from happenning? I was thinking about adding Pippin, wearer of black and silver to have at least one more hobbit. Sure, No help for it still does not work, but you can at least use a light in his mind and the shire countryside. I don't know however what to remove... maybe Aiglos?

[hsiale]

Second hobbit is nice, but there's no real space for him. All 9 companions are needed.

How was it possible to kill Sam? Slaked Thirst should take care of Enquea before it can do any serious damage.

Setup is not the quickest. But you go first and finish the game in 4 moves (1-2-3-6-9). If your opponent double moves all the time, or even triples once, he still will take the same 4 turns. So, to outrun you, he must triple twice. And most Movie decks don't have a viable way to do this.

Only ones that have are:
- Ents (if Ent player knows what you're up to and gets Radagast out with first Saved From the Fire, then it's usually autoloss, the only thing you can try is a Constantly Threatening swarm, but you need to be quick and do it before some event gets rid of your conditions,
- Noble Leaders, if they run 2x Narsil or Narsil + Last Throw. In this case chances for Constantly Threatening swarm are better, on the other hand this deck has excellent protection against it (strong ring-bearer with some pumps and Footman's Armor).

All other decks cannot consistently finish the game in less that 4 turns. So if you take 4 turns, you are at site 9 just in time.

[neopium]

I know there is no place for him, that's why I was asking :-)

My problem was that slaked thirst were not already stacked on preparations. You can only stack them at regroup.

Honestly, I don't remember exactly at what turn this happened, but I guess that I did not get Preparations soon enough.

I certainly tripled moved too late as well, because I thought I was not enough prepared for that... Still learning how to use it... And that's what is nice with this deck: you really need to think before playing :-)

[hsiale]

You have to play Preparations (and Gimli to save them*) during fellowship phase at site 2. And load them during regroup phase site 2. In this deck you don't have a choice of when to triple, you have to play 1-2-3-6-9 (double 1-3 is too risky 99% of the time).

*modification I made: Linnar in starting fellowship, Gimli played site 2, no Durin - that's one vitality less for Slacked Thirsts but gives you a starting companion of strength 7, which sometimes can really help.

[Kralik]

Just for fun, an essentially perfect run:

http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=Kralik$vgbk0pjlubteyqtg

A good run:

http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=Kralik$qzco83q5o3iza14k

A failed run (same deck as above):

http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=Kralik$0il5q03am85ofjkn

As you can see with the failed run, the deck is very vulnerable in the early stages.

I promised both my opponents not to make them play DSSoDF again. They both commented that it was very boring.

I realized in these playthroughs that you really can't use Birthday Present at site one because of EMHR contributing with the Rule of 4. You need to get all the cards off of EMHR otherwise you will be forced to draw them when you discard your draw deck. So really it's EMHR on site 1, hope to get Birthday Present by site 2, and then plan according to the matchup you saw in what to stack. Waiting an extra turn also gives you the chance to get some Shadow cards out to slow your opponent and/or make them nervous enough not to double all the time.

[NappyKorn]

first time ive seen that deck played, it looks brutal but boring to play against kinda like a deck I have posted in movie (regroup loop thing I believe). When it works its fast to win but when it fails (mainly conditions getting wiped) it looks miserable LOL. Thanks for the links to the games they were fun to watch.

NK

[Kralik]

I recommend watching on the fastest speed forward.

[sgtdraino]

One of the main weaknesses I found with this deck is that the setup is very slow (and if you encounter saruman's power, you have to start setting up again).

This is my main question, as I ordinarily run 4x Saruman's Power. It seems to me that this deck is very vulnerable to condition discard, particularly with the Shire conditions. And unless I'm missing something, I don't really see a way to "set it up again." Is there a way to get all those Shire Countrysides back out again?

I also run massive condition discard on the freep side, so Constantly Threatening is not going to be out very long. What recourse do you have if you lose them?

I never noticed that The Shire Countryside and Sam, Son of Hamfast were legal for Movie! Wow, that seems kinda crazy.

[Grond]

You regularly run 4x Saruman's power? ROFL

[Kralik]

If you're worried about losing Constantly Threatening, I don't think you understand the point of the deck at all. Who cares if it's lost? It's only there as a very temporary measure, if it even gets played at all before being discarded. In fact, I have had games where I've had it out but chosen not to use it to force my opponent's hand to clog with unusable Manuever/Archery/Skirmish events. You will not win with your Shadow unless you're playing the deck drastically differently than it's designed and you are insanely lucky. You win with your Free Peoples or not at all.

Saruman's Power is challenging, as it is to any condition-based deck. I've faced it 2-3 times and won. The key is to pull an extra Birthday Present and keep it in hand for emergencies. You want to do this regardless of which particular Shadow you are facing. It's the only card you MUST have since you can bring back any other cards you need, such as A Light in His Mind and The Shire Countryside. In my original version of this deck I tried the -shuffling Bilbo ally as a backup, but I ditched him.

[sgtdraino]

Saruman's Power is challenging, as it is to any condition-based deck. I've faced it 2-3 times and won. The key is to pull an extra Birthday Present and keep it in hand for emergencies. You want to do this regardless of which particular Shadow you are facing. It's the only card you MUST have since you can bring back any other cards you need, such as A Light in His Mind and The Shire Countryside.

Ah, I think I'm starting to get it now. You use the Dear Friends to retrieve anything that gets discarded, such as your Shire Countrysides. But do you have some way to get them back in your hand and play them out again, without waiting until the next turn?

[neopium]

I never noticed that The Shire Countryside and Sam, Son of Hamfast were legal for Movie! Wow, that seems kinda crazy.

The Shire Countryside works except by a Hobbit's game text. So Sam SoH does not trigger it

[sgtdraino]

Sure sure. I'm just surprised that those two cards, outlawed for Standard and Expanded, are legal for Movie. Then again, the same goes for Galadriel, LR. I wonder why Movie is softer on cards like that?

[civ4master]

Because they didn't ban them when they should have. Pre-Shadows Multipath is much better.

[Kralik]

Saruman's Power is challenging, as it is to any condition-based deck. I've faced it 2-3 times and won. The key is to pull an extra Birthday Present and keep it in hand for emergencies. You want to do this regardless of which particular Shadow you are facing. It's the only card you MUST have since you can bring back any other cards you need, such as A Light in His Mind and The Shire Countryside.

Ah, I think I'm starting to get it now. You use the Dear Friends to retrieve anything that gets discarded, such as your Shire Countrysides. But do you have some way to get them back in your hand and play them out again, without waiting until the next turn?

You use Ever My Heart Rises to discard your entire draw deck and then Birthday Present / Dear Friends to get whatever you want back.

With every tool in your draw deck at your disposal, you choose what is best for your particular opponent and triple from 3-6 and from 6-9. If you can make it to 3 without losing key companions, you are nearly invincible. I'm not going to go into all the details... it's already been hashed out many times in the thread. In particular, it took pages for Smeagollum to realize that you don't play the deck as normal.

Losing The Shire Countryside hurts, but it's really only going to affect one or maybe two of your Free People's turns. When you have 9 companions, 4x Slaked Thirsts, Strong Archery/Wounding, Eowyn LoI, Gandalf's support... you can manage.

EDIT: Watch replay links here - http://lotrtcgwiki.com/forums/index.php/topic,4077.msg82908.html#msg82908 - preferably on a fast speed, to see both wins and a loss. I don't play the deck often because people find it annoying, but I've heard others are playing it on Gemp.

[sgtdraino]

Yeah, I watched all three of those replay links already, but to my recollection none of those games really had to deal with condition discarding. I'd be interested to see a game against a deck that makes heavy use of Saruman's Power. If my thinking is correct, Turn 1: Shire conditions get discarded in Shadow Phase. No use of Shire conditions this turn. Turn 2: You use Dear Friends to put Birthday Present in your draw deck in Fellowship Phase, but have no way to draw it/play it/use it. No use of Shire conditions this turn. Turn 3: You use Birthday Present/Dear Friends to put your conditions back in your draw deck in Fellowship Phase, but have no way to draw them/play them. No use of Shire conditions this turn. Turn 4: You play your conditions back out again, and get to use them until they get discarded again.

It seems like it would be risky to double (or triple) without your Shire conditions in place. Each time they get discarded, seems like you're probably single-moving for three turns, during which he's probably (at least) doubling.

Then again, I'm probably still missing something.

[Kralik]

Yeah, you are. First, it's not likely you'll face a Saruman's Power every turn. Secondly, you won't get all the conditions out the first turn or even the second. It's more like:

Turn one: Birthday Present if lucky, play other conditions maybe.
Turn two: Keep extra Birthday Present, get conditions ready. If conditions were discarded on your first turn you can get them back now.
Turn three: You probably have all the conditions out. This is the turn you triple from 3 to 6. It hurts to lose your conditions but you are still likely to get at least one use out of them (eg. spam fellowship healing for Not the First Halfling abuse)
Turn four: No Conditions but it's the final stretch from 6-9 with 4x Slaked Thirsts, nine companions, your choice of site 7 and lots of directed archery / Eowyn abuse ready. This is a potent setup regardless of whether you are playing or not. Even if your companions are mostly exhausted at site 8, your opponent's minions are dead and their hand is clogging.

I've faced Saruman's Power before and it's workable. I think Easterlings w/ Easterling Polearm's are the more dangerous threat. They are the only enemy that can't take any wounds -- most others (Broad-Bladed Sword, High Vantage) can be exerted with Slaked Thirsts and dealt with by Eowyn LoI. You need to pull Deep in Thought and Roll of Thunder and hope you can knock out Small Hope and Easterling Captain.

The deck is obviously not perfect -- I've played it and made many mistakes. Castamir with Raider Halberd on site 2 will ruin your day. You have to carefully choose which cards help the most and decide if/when to play minions. But it's fun to be nearly invincible once you get rolling. If your opponent has poor cycling and lots of FP events, they can often be nearly completely clogged by the time your last turn rolls around. Either that or they've given up trying.

[Kralik]

I don't think I've ever had a Shadow win before, but here's one where my opponent played Radagast on site 1 (=instant loss in most cases) and I got lucky draws.

http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=Kralik$yp7pu1498msi2fbk

Makes me think I should try to get a Constantly Threatening to keep in hand so I can bait my opponent into doubling... As long as there is enough twilight, you can continually play the cheap minions until they run out of cards in their hand. In fact, since EMHR causes trouble with the rule of four, I suspect the best plan is to wait until site 2 to use Birthday Present and allow the natural card draws to help both Freeps and Shadow. Smeagol/Gollum can toss cards you don't need so there's little threat of clogging.

Given a double by your opponent or a triple with Radagast, we get:
Constantly Threatening --> Up to 9 Minions from Discard --> Loss of Initiative --> Gollum from Discard --> Evil-Smelling Fens --> Another Minion from Discard

As long as there is twilight.

I'm also wondering if I should add a Rest By Blind Night for emergencies or alternate strategies, but I'm not sure if it's worth the card slot.

[sgtdraino]

Hmmm. What about adding this guy:

Master Proudfoot, Distant Relative of Bilbo

ETA: Hmmm. It seems like this could be interesting too:

Birthday Present + Dear Friends + Legolas, Greenleaf + Elrond, Keeper of Vilya + Elf Song + The Shire Countryside x4 = Exert Elrond to heal 4 companions!

[Kralik]

I don't think either of those are necessary, since for Master Proudfoot you're not likely to get him and actually need his drawing ability. Note that with Dear Friends you are drawing 6 cards a turn which is your entire draw deck. As for Elrond, you don't need any Fellowship healing as initiative abuse can give you up to 20 heals in the Fellowship phase.

Both cards are assuming that you have a draw deck at all when you play them, and you very likely won't.

[sgtdraino]

It's very easy to get him, since Gandalf, Greyhame can play him from your discard pile. The idea is, if you lose anything, Proudfoot would enable you to get it back out again immediately.

Good point on the initiative abuse though.

[Kralik]

Ah, I see what you mean, but you're missing one very important detail:

Birthday Present gives you 3x Dear Friends and 1x No Help For It. You're running up against the rule of four. A smart opponent will always choose No Help For It last to avoid the initiative abuse. (Impatient opponents often choose it first, to their detriment). So, you actually can't draw any more cards with Master Proudfoot. The best you could do is draw 2 cards at the expense of using Dear Friends and No Help For It to plan your next turn with key cards like Durin's Secret, Pathfinder, and so on.

[sgtdraino]

I think you misunderstand: The Proudfoot scenario is for when you don't have Birthday Present, because it got discarded and (for whatever reason) you don't have a spare in hand. So butting up against the rule of four is the least of your worries. If condition discarding gets rid of all your Birthday Presents, Proudfoot gets it back out again the very next turn. Assuming you kept at least one Dear Friends in your hand, of course. But if you didn't, then you're screwed anyway.

If you lose all your conditions, but you have a Dear Friends in hand and Proudfoot on the table, then at a minimum you can get out a Birthday Present, a The Shire Countryside, and put a No Help For It and another Dear Friends in your hand. You're set right back up again, instead of having to struggle for 3 turns.

But then again maybe you see that scenario as too unlikely to worry about.

[civ4master]

Suppose some one has Verily I Come in their deck? What do you do then?

[bibfortuna25]

How does this fare against Dunland, specifically decks that use Constantly Threatening? By doubling and tripling, you'll be adding a lot of twilight, and that spare twilight can be used to fuel Hides to keep those smelly men alive.

Thoughts?

[sgtdraino]

I think Deep In Thought is probably his answer to both of those. If they come out, he just pulls Deep In Thought his next turn, and gets rid of all that.

ETA: Here's some more food for thought:

After you've discarded everything, 4x The Shire Countryside + These Are My People + 4x Brace of Coneys + Frodo's Cloak + any other Dwarf and Hobbit gear you want = fully kitted-out Gimli, Sam, and Frodo, the ability to heal 16 wounds in Fellowship at a time of your choosing, and the ability to heal 4 wounds during Skirmish at a time of your choosing.

[Kralik]

civ4master, I never see Verily I Come in play, but if it was, Son of Hamfast should be able to take care of it.

bibfortuna, likely it would be a tough match, a taste of my own medicine so to speak. Directed archery only goes so far with an abundance of twilight. Hopefully I would be able to take some Hides out early before a double/triple move.

sgtdraino, you have a lot of ideas but I'm not hearing any good suggestions on what cards to remove to make your ideas fit. I'm not inclined to use Dear Friends to stack Brace of Coneys when there are many better options and I have very limited turns.

[sgtdraino]

sgtdraino, you have a lot of ideas but I'm not hearing any good suggestions on what cards to remove to make your ideas fit.

Heh heh. Well, those who know me, know that I am very fond of large decks. My favorite deck (which is Expanded) has 108 cards. I just did up a variant of your deck that had 164 cards! I won, but there were clearly problems with it. Next version has merely 148 cards

I'm guessing your desire to keep the size down is simply so you have a better chance at getting a good starting hand? Because obviously once you deck yourself out, the size of the deck is no longer relevant.

I'm not inclined to use Dear Friends to stack Brace of Coneys when there are many better options and I have very limited turns.

No no, you don't use Dear Friends to stack Brace of Coneys, you use These Are My People to play umpteen thousand possessions on all your Aragorn signet guys. And since you're playing them from your discard pile, rule of four doesn't apply. I even switched to an Aragorn signet Aragorn, so I could use that event to go ahead and get his bow on him right away. Among those umpteen thousand possessions are 4x Brace of Coneys and 1 Frodo's Cloak, which gets you a total of 5 burdens off and (with 4x The Shire Countryside) 20 heals, as well as turning Gimli, Aragorn, Frodo and Sam into beasts. That also gets you 4x Athelas, for an additional 4 heals as well as some condition removal. All for one card!

[Kralik]

Ah, I see that I am using a few Aragorn signet companions, though not Aragorn himself. Regarding the deck size, I wish I could pare the deck down to 30/30, but I can't think of what I could remove without damaging the deck's success. Huge decks leave me extremely unlikely to get Birthday Present or Constantly Threatening early and would ruin the current deck strategy of tripling from 3-6 and 6-9. Considering I have normal games with a 35/35 deck where I don't draw a card I need until site 6-7, with 4x in the deck, it's not a chance I wish to take.

If I had to reduce the deck size, I'd probably remove 1x Slaked Thirsts, Roll of Thunder, Deep in Thought, Not the First Halfling and Gandalf's Staff. That leaves 30/30 but makes me quite a bit more vulnerable and unable to choose the tools I need to face particular Shadows. Maybe I should consider 32/32... might be worth it.

[sgtdraino]

Here's the variant I've come up with so far, if anyone wants to try it:

Ring-bearer: Frodo, Master of the Precious
Ring: The One Ring, Answer To All Riddles

Starting Fellowship:
1x Gimli, Feared Axeman
1x Sam, Son of Hamfast
1x Smeagol, Poor Creature

Adventure deck:
Dunharrow Plateau
King's Tent
Beacon of Minas Tirith
Osgiliath Fallen
City Gates
Minas Tirith First Circle
Osgiliath Crossing
Northern Ithilien
Dagorlad

Free Peoples Draw Deck:
1x Durin III, Dwarven Lord
1x Legolas, Greenleaf
1x Gandalf, Greyhame
1x Aragorn, King in Exile
1x Boromir, Lord of Gondor
1x Elrond, Keeper of Vilya
4x Bilbo, Retired Adventurer
1x Master Proudfoot, Distant Relative of Bilbo
1x Axe of Erebor
1x Dwarven Armor
2x Dwarven Bracers
1x Gimli's Battle Axe, Trusted Weapon
1x Gimli's Helm
2x Hand Axe
1x Aragorn's Bow
1x Armor
4x Athelas
1x Blade of Gondor
4x Brace of Coneys
1x Frodo's Cloak
1x Hobbit Sword
1x Sting, Baggins Heirloom
1x Ring of Accretion
1x Ring of Guile
1x Aiglos
1x Vilya
4x Defending the Keep
1x Rest by Blind Night
4x Slaked Thirsts
1x Secret Sentinels
1x Stand Against Darkness
1x Durin's Secret
1x Well Met Indeed
1x These Are My People
3x Dear Friends
1x No Help For It
1x Ever My Heart Rises
1x Greatest Kingdom of My People
2x Preparations
1x A Light in His Mind
4x Birthday Present
1x Shadowplay
4x The Shire Countryside

Shadow Draw Deck:
3x Gollum, Old Villain
1x Gollum, Plotting Deceiver
3x Dunlending Brigand
4x Dunlending Elder
1x Dunlending Headman
1x Dunlending Looter
2x Dunlending Madman
1x Dunlending Pillager
4x Dunlending Rampager
2x Dunlending Ransacker
4x Dunlending Ravager
4x Dunlending Renegade
1x Dunlending Warrior
1x Freca, Hungry Savage
1x Hillman Rabble
1x Hillman Tribe
4x Wild Men of the Hills
1x Wulf, Dunlending Chieftain
2x Isengard Tinker
1x Cave Troll of Moria, Scourge of the Black Pit
4x Goblin Runner
1x Host of Moria, Legion of the Underdeeps
4x Desert Sneak
1x Sauron, The Lord of the Rings
1x Úlairë Enquëa, Lieutenant of Morgul
4x Hides
4x Captured by the Ring
4x Evil-smelling Fens
2x Let Her Deal With Them
4x Constantly Threatening
1x Goblin Swarms

Yes, it's pretty huge!

The main thing you want, is to get at least one Bilbo, Birthday Present, or Dear Friends in your starting hand. If you don't, then mulligan. Bid high, go first, pull Ever My Heart Rises, you know the drill. Assuming all this gets you at least one Bilbo, Birthday Present, or Dear Friends, go ahead and discard down to 8-12 cards. Start your setup the usual way, pull Gandalf early, but also get Aragorn and These Are My People asap.

[Grond]

If you have enough time, I'm recommending you to do the maths and see that you got like twice better chance of decent hand if you tune your deck down to 62-64 cards...

[Not a Zombie]

sgtdraino: I'd love to see some replays

[Kralik]

sgtdraino: How many cards is each side total? I'd like to calculate your odds at getting 1 of your 12 desired starting cards when the starting hand + mulligan + EMHR is taken into consideration.

Also, even though Boromir is Aragorn signet, I think in general Eowyn LoI would be a much better bet... much more bang for the buck and the ability to take out minions like Shelob, Sauron, Castamir, Broad-Bladed Sword Uruks etc. with ease.

[sgtdraino]

sgtdraino: I'd love to see some replays

This is the only decent one I have so far:

http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=sgtdraino$k3bbqovl3cs2x94a

I still made some mistakes in the operation, and that latest game link uses Restless Axe, which I have since swapped out for Kralik's suggestion, Rest By Blind Night. I liked the idea of using Restless Axe to exert minions, but ultimately decided I needed to save my Dwarf exertions to put cards on Preparations. There's so much to remember, I keep forgetting things... like how much Fellowship healing capability I have. In the above link, I think one time I moved without healing everyone, because I forgot that I could heal everyone!

Also, even though I like big decks, I am quite sure there are things I can take out of this one to make it better, yet keep the These Are My People possession theme.

In addition to the stuff Kralik does with his version, the idea with this version is to get out Preparations pretty quickly (with Defending The Keep), pile important Shadow cards up on them with your Dwarfs, then put that stuff back in your draw deck with Rest By Blind Night. With the enormous amount of Fellowship healing power, you can generally feel free to exhaust both Dwarfs after you've moved all you can, and heal them in Fellowship. These Are My People gets you 4x Brace of Coneys, 4x Athelas, Frodo's Cloak (which helps during your triples), and of course all your weapons. Elrond helps get your Elf stuff out a bit faster, with you being able to play it the same turn you retrieve it. With Vilya he's also a good defense against stuff like Greed. I replaced Eowyn with Boromir, since I can beef him out with These Are My People to the point where he's pretty much impossible to kill. I also went with an Aragorn signet Aragorn so I can get his bow on him quickly. Bilbo is a countermeasure if your conditions get discarded, and Master Proudfoot works with him to help get your stuff back out as quickly as possible. Finally, Well Met Indeed enables you to sacrifice Gandalf over and over, and just play him out again.

sgtdraino: How many cards is each side total? I'd like to calculate your odds at getting 1 of your 12 desired starting cards when the starting hand + mulligan + EMHR is taken into consideration.

Currently 72 and 72. I *do* want to get it smaller than that, though. Interested to hear the odds!

Also, even though Boromir is Aragorn signet, I think in general Eowyn LoI would be a much better bet... much more bang for the buck and the ability to take out minions like Shelob, Sauron, Castamir, Broad-Bladed Sword Uruks etc. with ease.

With Boromir kitted out, he can generally just fight any of those guys you mentioned, and be just fine. Then you can just heal him in Skirmish, Regroup, or the next Fellowship. OR you can murder those guys with all the crap you have stuck on your Preparations. OR you can Slaked Thirst and fire arrows. I had fun using Stand Against The Darkness to kill Sauron in one game. It's mainly in there to get Grond, didn't even consider the Sauron angle when I put it in.

[Kralik]

With Boromir kitted out, he can generally just fight any of those guys you mentioned, and be just fine. Then you can just heal him in Skirmish, Regroup, or the next Fellowship. OR you can murder those guys with all the crap you have stuck on your Preparations. OR you can Slaked Thirst and fire arrows. I had fun using Stand Against The Darkness to kill Sauron in one game. It's mainly in there to get Grond, didn't even consider the Sauron angle when I put it in.

He can fight but will he win? I'm referring specifically to Eowyn LoI's ability to take out problematic minions, such as Enduring Shelob (without wasting too many Slaked Thirsts) or no archery minions such as str 20 dmg+2 fierce Uruk-Hai.

But anyway I think it's an interesting take on the deck.

[sgtdraino]

I must confess, I have a personal dislike of Eowyn LoI. Probably from all the times I've encountered an opponent using her. She strikes me as truly overpowered, too easy, and frankly too popular. I don't want to use her, because so many other people *do* use her. I might eventually end up going this route, but I'm going to avoid her if I can. Kind of like Orc Culture, I just don't like her.

This variant isn't really intended to be a *better* version of your deck, it's intended to be a *different* version of your deck. Perhaps maybe one that's a little fairer to the opponent?

Plus Boromir is just cool.

[Kralik]

I must confess, I have a personal dislike of Eowyn LoI. Probably from all the times I've encountered an opponent using her. She strikes me as truly overpowered, too easy, and frankly too popular. I don't want to use her, because so many other people *do* use her. I might eventually end up going this route, but I'm going to avoid her if I can. Kind of like Orc Culture, I just don't like her.

I completely understand this sentiment. I feel the same way about certain cards and combinations. For example, I do not have, and I will never play, the typical Movie Lady Redeemed/Cirdan/Elvent deck lineup. I also like tend to shy away from typical shadows in Movie like Ninja Gollum, Corsairs and Besiegers.

However, for this particular deck, I had as my starting challenge to make the most absurd and powerful Free Peoples I could, and I feel like I succeeded. After I built this deck and played it a dozen times or so, I took over a year break from playing LotR as a whole.

[sgtdraino]

Okay, I changed it up some, and it seems to work pretty well! Check it out:

These Are My Dear Friends' Birthday Presents

Starting Fellowship:
Ring-bearer: Frodo, Reluctant Adventurer
Ring: The One Ring, Answer To All Riddles
1x Gimli, Feared Axeman
1x Sam, Son of Hamfast
1x Smeagol, Slinker

Adventure deck:
Dunharrow Plateau
King's Tent
Beacon of Minas Tirith
Osgiliath Fallen
City Gates
Minas Tirith First Circle
Osgiliath Crossing
Northern Ithilien
Dagorlad

Free Peoples Draw Deck:
1x Durin III, Dwarven Lord
1x Arwen, Daughter of Elrond
1x Legolas, Greenleaf
1x Radagast, The Brown
1x Aragorn, King in Exile
1x Elrond, Keeper of Vilya
4x Bilbo, Retired Adventurer
1x Master Proudfoot, Distant Relative of Bilbo
1x Dwarven Armor
1x Dwarven Bracers
1x Gimli's Battle Axe
1x Gimli's Helm
1x Hand Axe
1x Asfaloth, Elven Steed
1x Elven Bow
1x Elven Rope
1x Gwemegil
1x Knife of the Galadhrim
4x Lembas
1x Phial of Galadriel
1x Aragorn's Bow
1x Armor
4x Athelas
1x Ranger's Sword, Blade of Aragorn
4x Brace of Coneys
1x Frodo's Cloak
1x Hobbit Sword
1x Sting, Baggins Heirloom
1x Ring of Guile
1x Aiglos
1x Vilya
1x Quick As May Be
1x Rest by Blind Night
4x Slaked Thirsts
1x Secret Sentinels
1x Stand Against Darkness
4x Not Listening
4x Might of Numenor
1x These Are My People
4x Dear Friends
1x Ever My Heart Rises
2x Preparations
1x Shoulder to Shoulder
1x A Light in His Mind
4x Birthday Present
4x The Shire Countryside

Shadow Draw Deck:
3x Gollum, Old Villain
1x Gollum, Plotting Deceiver
3x Dunlending Brigand
4x Dunlending Elder
1x Dunlending Headman
1x Dunlending Looter
2x Dunlending Madman
1x Dunlending Pillager
4x Dunlending Rampager
2x Dunlending Ransacker
4x Dunlending Ravager
4x Dunlending Renegade
1x Dunlending Warrior
1x Freca, Hungry Savage
1x Hillman Rabble
1x Hillman Tribe
4x Wild Men of the Hills
1x Wulf, Dunlending Chieftain
4x Isengard Tinker
1x Cave Troll of Moria, Scourge of the Black Pit
4x Goblin Runner
4x Host of Moria, Legion of the Underdeeps
4x Desert Sneak
1x Sauron, The Lord of the Rings
1x Úlairë Enquëa, Lieutenant of Morgul
4x Hides
4x Captured by the Ring
4x Evil-smelling Fens
2x Let Her Deal With Them
4x Constantly Threatening
4x Goblin Swarms

A close look will tell you that there are actually quite a few differences between this and Kralik's version now. No Gandalf, different Frodo, Different Smeagol, etc. Here's the procedure:

Turn 1: You need Bilbo, Birthday Present, or Dear Friends. Mulligan if you have to, use Ever My Heart Rises, and hope for the best. Assuming you get at least one of the above, discard down to about 6 cards (discard down low enough so you'll be sure to draw whatever it is you are retrieving this turn). Use whatever you got to retrieve Birthday Present and Light In His Mind. Play what you got. Get Preparations asap. Move to Site 2 and stop.

Turn 2: Play Light In His Mind and Birthday Present. Use BP to Pull 4x Dear Friends. Use DF to retrieve eight cards:

The Shire Countryside x2
Aragorn
These Are My People
Elrond
Radagast
Preparations
Shoulder to Shoulder

Move to Site 3, and stop. This should generate very little twilight.

Turn 3: Pull 2 Dear Friends. Play the 8 cards you drew. Use DF to retrieve Legolas, Arwen, and 2x Not Listening. Use Elrond to play Legolas and Arwen. Use TAMP to play ALL your possessions. Play as many on Frodo as you can. Heal everyone with the various means you have available. Triple to Site 6, using Lembas to get your 2x Not Listening into hand. Use the 2x NL and Frodo's Cloak to heal 10 wounds as you go. Move wounds around with Shoulder To Shoulder as needed. Stack Preparations in Regroup as much as possible.

Turn 4: Pull 4x Dear Friends. Use DF to get 4x Not Listening and 4x Might Of Numenor, OR possibly 4x NL, 2x Might Of Numenor, Rest By Blind Night, and a countermeasure of your choice. Triple to Site 9, using Lembas to take the cards into hand during your first Regroup phase. Stack Slaked Thirsts on Preparations as you go, healing as needed.

Here's a game link, in which everything rolled just about perfect:

http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=sgtdraino$blmczn76hj8wm28b

Thoughts?

[Kralik]

Just a quick comment: My reasoning behind not using Radagast is Durin's Secret usually leaves an easy triple. Radagast lets your opponent cycle quite a bit.

Watching your playthrough...

* Why that Frodo? It seems like there are better options. Anti-Discard, Anti-Threat, Emergency wounding, etc. The turn you played possessions on him you had 37 twilight before moving... it's not like he's that useful.
* Lucky starting hand.
* Wow, watching your huge deck discard takes forever.
* Lucky minion lineup at sites 2-3. Hardly anything.
* Enquea on sites 2-3 against Sam/Gollum would WRECK you! I think you need a better burden strategy for the early game.
* Why not throw in Durin for extra Preparations exerts AND a transfer of possessions from Gimli? Slaked Thirsts is necessary to avoid Shotgun Enquea, Wormtongue and Chief Counselor. I noticed you didn't use it until later in the game and even then you couldn't load very many.
* IMO Pathfinder is indispensable so you don't get permastopped at site 7
* Str 23 Smeagol was cool
* I'd like to see how this works vs. different Shadows. How would you fight against, say, Easterlings?

[sgtdraino]

Just a quick comment: My reasoning behind not using Radagast is Durin's Secret usually leaves an easy triple.

I actually had a question about that: Your strategy has you triple from 3 to 6, and then again from 6 to 9, but you've only got one Durin's Secret in your deck. Once you play it from 3 to 6, how do you get it back in your hand the very next turn, to use again on 6 to 9?

Radagast lets your opponent cycle quite a bit.

He does on 3 to 6, certainly. My plan is to just kill him off on the 6 to 9. For me, the permanent extra move limit, with the advantage of being able to retrieve extra cards I need and not worry about getting Durin's Secret every turn is worth it. It also means I don't have to stock Gandalf, who doesn't really do much otherwise.

Watching your playthrough...

* Why that Frodo? It seems like there are better options. Anti-Discard, Anti-Threat, Emergency wounding, etc. The turn you played possessions on him you had 37 twilight before moving... it's not like he's that useful.

Because he has an Aragorn signet, and because (since I'm not discarding Smeagol), he's better for me than the other Aragorn signet versions. It's important to play most of the possessions directly on Frodo because they are better protected on him, and necessary for some things like Frodo's Cloak.

* Lucky starting hand.

That was actually my worst case scenario, other than not getting anything I needed at all.

* Wow, watching your huge deck discard takes forever.

Yeah, it does on playback. It's faster during the actual game, but of course you know this.

* Lucky minion lineup at sites 2-3. Hardly anything.

Minion lineup is just a bonus early in the game. I don't really care about playing Shadow. If I need them later, I'll Rest By Blind Night and pull out some good options to slow the opponent down.

* Enquea on sites 2-3 against Sam/Gollum would WRECK you! I think you need a better burden strategy for the early game.

Like your deck, the early turns are when this deck is weakest. Moving from 2 to 3 is a moment of vulnerability. Hopefully my opponent doesn't play Enquea, or I've got Might of Numenor in hand, or I've gotten lucky with Preparations. Ideas? What is your burden strategy from 2 to 3?

* Why not throw in Durin for extra Preparations exerts AND a transfer of possessions from Gimli?

He's in there, I just didn't draw him. I could get him of course, but other cards have a higher priority in this setup.

Slaked Thirsts is necessary to avoid Shotgun Enquea, Wormtongue and Chief Counselor. I noticed you didn't use it until later in the game and even then you couldn't load very many.

I can use Slaked Thirsts if I need it. I can also Elven Rope Grima. Otherwise, Shoulder to Shoulder and Might of Numenor theoretically takes care of the other stuff.

* IMO Pathfinder is indispensable so you don't get permastopped at site 7

That's a good point, didn't think about that. Though if he's using that, I'll just sit at 7, and use Rest By Blind Night to make it tough for him to get by me.

* Str 23 Smeagol was cool

heh heh

* I'd like to see how this works vs. different Shadows. How would you fight against, say, Easterlings?

Good question. Probably not very well. At least until they run out of their weapons.

[Kralik]

Just a quick comment: My reasoning behind not using Radagast is Durin's Secret usually leaves an easy triple.

I actually had a question about that: Your strategy has you triple from 3 to 6, and then again from 6 to 9, but you've only got one Durin's Secret in your deck. Once you play it from 3 to 6, how do you get it back in your hand the very next turn, to use again on 6 to 9?

Dear Friends...?

He does on 3 to 6, certainly. My plan is to just kill him off on the 6 to 9. For me, the permanent extra move limit, with the advantage of being able to retrieve extra cards I need and not worry about getting Durin's Secret every turn is worth it. It also means I don't have to stock Gandalf, who doesn't really do much otherwise.

Deep in Thought, Roll of Thunder, Gandalf's Staff, and Not the First Halfling all need Gandalf and make my original deck much stronger and help deal with certain dangerous threats. Oh, and Gandalf nets you an additional companion twice in the game (sites 3 and 6) and can let you kill Frodo safely and still use Smeagol (see bottom of post). Very useful.

* Lucky minion lineup at sites 2-3. Hardly anything.

Minion lineup is just a bonus early in the game. I don't really care about playing Shadow. If I need them later, I'll Rest By Blind Night and pull out some good options to slow the opponent down.

No, I meant your opponent. You got lucky not to get anything other than a str. 7 minion to fight.

Like your deck, the early turns are when this deck is weakest. Moving from 2 to 3 is a moment of vulnerability. Hopefully my opponent doesn't play Enquea, or I've got Might of Numenor in hand, or I've gotten lucky with Preparations. Ideas? What is your burden strategy from 2 to 3?

Don't go over 5 burdens. I rely on hand-discarded not burden-adding Smeagol to both help me cycle and survive early encounters.

* IMO Pathfinder is indispensable so you don't get permastopped at site 7

That's a good point, didn't think about that. Though if he's using that, I'll just sit at 7, and use Rest By Blind Night to make it tough for him to get by me.

Since you didn't have Rest By Blind Night in hand, and you don't have many exertions to spare, I don't know that this would work. For reference, I have had plenty of games when my opponent gets to 7-8 right before I get to 9. If *they* have Radagast and I don't have Constantly Threatening, it's all over.

Me: 1-2, 2-3, 3-6, 6-9.
Opponent: 1-3, 3-5, 5-7.

Without Pathfinder you might get:

You: 1-2, 2-3, 3-6, 6-7.
Opponent: 1-3, 3-5, 5-7, 7-9.

* I'd like to see how this works vs. different Shadows. How would you fight against, say, Easterlings?

Good question. Probably not very well. At least until they run out of their weapons.

So my strategies are:

Not the First Halfling: Easy to build tokens, prevents overwhelming.
Deep in Thought: Discard Small Hope.
Roll of Thunder: Discard Easterling Polearm and kill Easterling Captain.
Gandalf's Staff: Emergency Easterling Survival.
Kill Frodo: No burdens, Sam takes the Ring and I can still play No Help for It.

BTW, it's surprising how many games I've played with my OWN Easterlings where opponent doesn't take the last option. I've overwhelmed 3-5 companions in a single turn when all they needed to do is pass the ring on to neutralize the threat.

[sgtdraino]

Dear Friends...?

That gets it back in your deck the very next turn, but it doesn't get it into your hand to use during that turn.... Aaaaaah, simple regular ol' regrouping. Of course! Sometimes I have a tendency to overthink things.

Deep in Thought, Roll of Thunder, Gandalf's Staff, and Not the First Halfling all need Gandalf and make my original deck much stronger and help deal with certain dangerous threats.

I prefer Elf analogues of DIT and ROT, which I can potentially put in my hand immediately with Elrond. The other two are nice I guess, and they certainly work for your deck.

Oh, and Gandalf nets you an additional companion twice in the game (sites 3 and 6) and can let you kill Frodo safely and still use Smeagol (see bottom of post). Very useful.

With this deck, I really want as many companions out as early as possible, so I can play out all my possessions on them. I tried Gandalf, but found I really wasn't using him... and ultimately decided I didn't need him.

No, I meant your opponent. You got lucky not to get anything other than a str. 7 minion to fight.

Ah yes! That was a pleasant surprise, certainly!

Don't go over 5 burdens.

lol. That may indeed have to be the route I take.

I rely on hand-discarded not burden-adding Smeagol to both help me cycle and survive early encounters.

Yeah, I like him too... but this other Smeagol works much better with Not Listening.

Since you didn't have Rest By Blind Night in hand, and you don't have many exertions to spare, I don't know that this would work.

I could have had it in hand if I had chosen to. It's all based on what the situation is when I'm at site 6. If he's close on my tail, has a chance of beating me to the end, then I'm most likely putting that in my hand to use at site 7.

For reference, I have had plenty of games when my opponent gets to 7-8 right before I get to 9. If *they* have Radagast and I don't have Constantly Threatening, it's all over.

If my opponent has Radagast, then I make it a priority to stack what I need on Preparations, and put it back in my deck. If my opponent doesn't have the means to triple, then obviously I can just concentrate on moving quickly.

Me: 1-2, 2-3, 3-6, 6-9.
Opponent: 1-3, 3-5, 5-7.

Without Pathfinder you might get:

You: 1-2, 2-3, 3-6, 6-7.
Opponent: 1-3, 3-5, 5-7, 7-9.

According to procedure, I should have a preparations out by the time I move from 3-6, with the opponent currently at site 5. At that time, based on what I've observed the opponent do, I decide whether I need to go ahead and get ready to throw some shadow stuff back in my deck that turn, or whether I can pretty much ignore him. Heck, if he's sitting at site 5, then he's already lost, right? He's only going to get one more turn, and he's probably not going to be able to quadruple.

Not the First Halfling: Easy to build tokens, prevents overwhelming.

I think all my gear is more reliable than tokens, and makes them nearly impossible to overwhelm.

Deep in Thought: Discard Small Hope.

I've got an elf event for this.

Roll of Thunder: Discard Easterling Polearm and kill Easterling Captain.

I've got an elf event for Sauron stuff like Grond, but this is indeed a weak point. I shall have to consider a countermeasure! Although, when I think about it, my ability to take off burdens in the Skirmish phase might really be all the countermeasure I need.

Gandalf's Staff: Emergency Easterling Survival.

True, but too tough to get that combo out with my setup.

Kill Frodo: No burdens, Sam takes the Ring and I can still play No Help for It.

How about I just DON'T kill Frodo instead! And my setup doesn't use No Help For It, nor does it discard Smeagol.

BTW, it's surprising how many games I've played with my OWN Easterlings where opponent doesn't take the last option. I've overwhelmed 3-5 companions in a single turn when all they needed to do is pass the ring on to neutralize the threat.

The threat can be neutralized by taking off burdens in skirmish.

[Kralik]

The threat can be neutralized by taking off burdens in skirmish.

I don't think so. In my normal Easterling deck I routinely have 10-20+ spare twilight. Think of Easterling Captain, Easterling Regiment, and 2x Raider Bow. If you try to pump Smeagol with burdens in order to remove burdens, you're only giving them the tools to be stronger. With the incredible twilight you're already generating, I don't see how you can avoid being overwhelmed. In the playback I watched, if your opponent had Easterlings, they would have been looking at multiple fierce fighters + about 30 or more starting twilight to work with (aside from ambush bonuses) at site 4. If they didn't have the tools they needed (eg. Easterling Polearm) they could wait a site or two and take advantage of Radagast's cycling help. I typically have at least 1x each Raider Bow, Easterling Captain and Easterling Polearm by 4, though.

[sgtdraino]

All good points. Sounds like what I really need is better possession removal. Take out the polearm on captain, kill him with Archery, and that's all she wrote.

But Roll of Thunder is not presently an option. Other means of possession removal?

[Legion]

Not a lot, really.  I can see hides really messing you up thanks to all the twilight you generate.   That said, I imagine hides does very well against the original if you manage to get 2 out at once, thanks to only 1 Roll of Thunder per turn.

[Kralik]

Not a lot, really.  I can see hides really messing you up thanks to all the twilight you generate.   That said, I imagine hides does very well against the original if you manage to get 2 out at once, thanks to only 1 Roll of Thunder per turn.

One of the reasons I think clogging is so essential. If I'm playing against a difficult matchup, I often don't play Shadow cards even if I can. You'd be surprised how many decks this messes up. I used to get a lot of opponents complaining about "bad draws" and a "handful of Free Peoples" but it's really just poor cycling not luck.

[sgtdraino]

Okay, I think I have an option, at least for Easterling Captain:

Citadel of the Stars. I can exhaust Easterling Captain with Slaked Thirsts, finish him off with Citadel of the Stars, Smeagol can then do his thing with Not Listening. Everybody heals, get back COTS with Sixth Level in Regroup, reload Slaked Thirsts, rinse and repeat.

The same procedure would work with Dunland, though I can only guarantee killing off one (worst) minion per move.

Massive twilight is only really generated for a single turn. As long as I survive that turn, should be okay thereafter.

[Kralik]

Okay, I think I have an option, at least for Easterling Captain:

Citadel of the Stars. I can exhaust Easterling Captain with Slaked Thirsts, finish him off with Citadel of the Stars, Smeagol can then do his thing with Not Listening. Everybody heals, get back COTS with Sixth Level in Regroup, reload Slaked Thirsts, rinse and repeat.

The same procedure would work with Dunland, though I can only guarantee killing off one (worst) minion per move.

Massive twilight is only really generated for a single turn. As long as I survive that turn, should be okay thereafter.

Good idea. Maybe use that site 3 that lets you play fortifications? (Base of Msomething?)

[civ4master]

10U117

[sgtdraino]

Say, that's a great idea!

[sgtdraino]

Here's a couple new game links for this deck! The first is me playing against Kralik himself!

http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=sgtdraino$lcs2le45l7eepvdm

I lost this game, primarily because I FORGOT to use Lembas in regroup to get my healing cards into my hand before I moved! Due to that, I wasn't able to triple on my third turn.

And here I am playing against Drako:

http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=sgtdraino$zjuvwb382eu6nkvd

I won this one, but got a nasty surprise on my 4th move: Shelob came out and made it so Smeagol couldn't skirmish the whole turn! Didn't think of that one!

ETA:

Here's another replay link, from a player who wishes to remain anonymous:

http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=sgtdraino$hfsf4g1lvx3yag9t

Another win, but alas Gimli fell prey to Enquea at site 5! I'd forgotten that King Block has that no-heal site, and I exhausted Gimli loading Preparations before I moved there. And so, he was killed, and no more Slaked Thirsts for the rest of the game! Tell you what, that is when Might of Numenor saved my butt from another Enquea!

ETA some more: Here's another game, this one with picnic:

http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=sgtdraino$vq2voj9suwpkq4c8

I won, but this one was very tough! Got a bad first draw, and was not able to start the build until turn 2/site 2, when I finally drew a bilbo on turn 1 Regroup. My opponent was playing Sauron/Enquea, with some pretty good condition discard. He never got rid of Birthday Present, but he quickly murdered Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas! Somehow I still managed to beat him to the end, with Not Listening and 2x The Shire Countryside keeping a few guys alive.

ETA yet again:

Here's a game I just played with NeMa:

http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=sgtdraino$lweudczzyiu0meas

Near-perfect run, with a great first draw (got Birthday Present AND Bilbo). The only problem was my own fault, when I used These Are My People before I had played out Elrond, and so I couldn't play any of my Lembas! Thankfully I was able to just play Elrond, use a Dear Friends to get a Lembas, and use Elrond to put it in my hand. Which gives me food for thought: I guess I probably don't really need 4x Lembas in the deck. After I use it during a turn, there's nothing else in my draw deck to draw. So, theoretically I only need 2x, not 4x. This of course assumes I am able to move as quickly as possible, and am not stopped short for a turn. It also assumes none of my Lembas gets discarded by Corsairs or whatnots. Maybe 3x Lembas would be the best compromise. My opponent was actually using Corsairs this game, and ditched Aragorn's bow. I saw the writing on the wall before this happened, and had already Dear Friends-ed These Are My People back into my deck, figuring I'd probably need it again (which I did).

[neopium]

Here's another replay link, from a player who wishes to remain anonymous:

http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=sgtdraino$hfsf4g1lvx3yag9t

Another win, but alas Gimli fell prey to Enquea at site 5! I'd forgotten that King Block has that no-heal site, and I exhausted Gimli loading Preparations before I moved there. And so, he was killed, and no more Slaked Thirsts for the rest of the game! Tell you what, that is when Might of Numenor saved my butt from another Enquea!

Thanks for not revealing my identity, I'm still ashamed of this pathetic loss

[sgtdraino]

Dude! You're blowing your cover!

[dmaz]

I had a fun game against Jamascus using your deck idea
http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=dmaz$0pgx8qbxjp509xue

I know the deck has the potential to be "unstoppable" once you get everything out, but its dependent on way too many variables for me.

1. Your opening hand.
If you don't get either of the dwarf conditions in it, you need to choose between preparations or rises. This slows you down already. Let's assume you do get what you need for fellowship but you don't have any of your Constantly Threatenings. Now you need to tread carefully to make sure you don't discard them all using Rises. If you get down to three discarded, then you need to wait, which slows you down. If you discard them all you are left to hope that your opponent doesn't realize that your entire shadow at this point is now a farce, and they don't outrun you. There are many more move limit enhancers other than just Durin's Secret.

2. Whether or not your opponent plays heavy condition control.
The companions are basically exertion utility tanks. If you lose your Countrysides, you can't guarantee any kind of triple moving since they won't heal in regroup. Thus you need to wait to cycle them all from your discard pile again during the next fellowship phase.

So in answer to your initial question, no I don't think it's broken at all. It's a really cool, clever idea!
Any "uber" strategy comes with a cost, and I think that the downsides to this deck are fair.

[sgtdraino]

I agree with all points, and also think they apply to my These Are My Dear Friends' Birthday Presents variant. The strategy is high risk/high reward, and to me it's almost more of a, "hey look what I just did" thing, than a means by which you're actually going to win leagues.