USA Healthcare

[Gil-Estel]

btw Lem0n, maybe this is helpful?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/23/AR2010032301714.html?hpid%3Dtopnews&sub=AR

[jdizzy001]

good for the people or not, the frightening thing is that the government will be mandating we must purchase something.  In the USA, that is a foreign concept.  Another article in the bill which some people find... shall we say odd, is that amish and christian scientists (the religion) are exempt from purchasing insurance on religious grounds.  Though I have no quarrel with this, my distaste comes with the fact that this is in violation of the first amendemt of the bill of rights which states   "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."  By allowing the afore mentioned religions to be exempt from the new healthcare law, they have enacted a law which respects the amish and CS over every other religion in the USA.  That's dangerous territory.

[MR. Lurtzy]

good for the people or not, the frightening thing is that the government will be mandating we must purchase something.  In the USA, that is a foreign concept.

That's because the mandate is unconstitutional.

[Gate Troll]

good for the people or not, the frightening thing is that the government will be mandating we must purchase something.  In the USA, that is a foreign concept.

That's because the mandate is unconstitutional.

But the Constitution is a "living document", right?   

[Gate Troll]

Regardless, this is a moot point. There will always be people like Mr. Lurtzy, NBarden, jerba and me, who don't like the idea of the government controlling anything this important, regardless of what it does, and there will always be people like HawkeyeSPF, putridbreath and gil-estel who believe that it will help. I believe this thread is solely about what is in this bill, not whether or not this bill should have been passed. As I said previously, moot point.

[lem0nhead]

Regardless, this is a moot point. There will always be people like Mr. Lurtzy, NBarden, jerba and me, who don't like the idea of the government controlling anything this important, regardless of what it does, and there will always be people like HawkeyeSPF, putridbreath and gil-estel who believe that it will help. I believe this thread is solely about what is in this bill, not whether or not this bill should have been passed. As I said previously, moot point.

Thanks Door Orc, the thread got lost a bit in a debate which, knowing these forums, I was desperately trying to avoid but knew would inevitably happen (especially as NB seems to have come back JUST to get involved in a debate lol), but I got the gist cheers.

[Gil-Estel]

btw Lem0n, maybe this is helpful?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/23/AR2010032301714.html?hpid%3Dtopnews&sub=AR

Hence my neutral contribution  , and I totally agree with you Door Orc. It stays interesting though to debate what should be the main role of the government. I want to be a geography teacher as well, so now I take a class Political Geography, which is massively interesting.....

[Jerba]

There will always be people like Mr. Lurtzy, NBarden, jerba and me, who don't like the idea of the government controlling anything

The above has now been corrected.

[Jerba]

And to cheer us all up, no matter where you are on the issue:

As the ink dries on their plan to denude America, late-night TV hosts are already laughing at the bill:

    The liberals are asking us to give Obama time. We agree, and think 25 to life would be appropriate.
    (Leno)

    America needs ObamaCare like Nancy Pelosi needs a Halloween mask.
    (Leno)

    Q: Have you heard about McDonald's' new Obama Value Meal?
    A: Order anything you like and the guy behind you has to pay for it.
    (O'Brien)

    Q: What's the difference between Obama's cabinet and a penitentiary?
    A: One is filled with tax evaders, blackmailers and threats to society. The other is for housing prisoners.
    (Letterman)

    Q: If Nancy Pelosi and Obama were on a boat in the middle of the ocean and it started to sink, who would be saved?
    A: America !
    (Fallon)

    Q: What was the most positive result of the "Cash for clunkers" program?
    A: It took 95% of the Obama bumper stickers off the road.
    (Letterman)

[legolas3333]

I wrote a research paper on the issue and the only conclusion I came to is that the health care bill is a democratic bill that was passed in order to see how far they could break the tenth amendment. The constitution does not mandate a national health care plan therefore that right is reserved for the states. In effect, the health care bill is the first step to socialistic America since the government is controlling an (important) area of our lives.

[Jerba]

While I agree with you Legolas, there are plenty of unfortunate precedents in place that could support most aspects of the bill. They couch this in the commerce clause which allows congress to regulate commerce between the states. Health care is 1/6th of the economy so yeah, I'd say thats commerce. The personal mandate is the most questionable feature but even Wicker v Filburn allowed the govt to interfere in one mans attempt to grow wheat for personal use on the grounds that his consumption of his own wheat would affect the pprice of wheat since it removed his personal demand. I personally believe it to be outrageous, but I wouldn't count on the unconstitutional angle being held up. Unfortunately.

The 10th Amendment has long since lost its power since the states are now subservient to the Federal Government and always beg for their next handout. Blame national income tax, direct election of Senators, and social programs from the New Deal & Great Society to the Health Care Bill.

[FM]

In effect, the health care bill is the first step to socialistic America since the government is controlling an (important) area of our lives.

I don't want in on the debates, as I've found through personal experience that debating with north-americans can be really tiresome and leads nowhere most of the time, but we have a very similar healthcare system in Brasil as the one Obama intends to install, and we're nowhere NEAR being socialistic. We just acknowledge that SOME things in socialism might actually be good, the same way some things in capitalism are. I won't also discuss WHY I think this is "good" while you think it's not, just suffice it to say I'm all for saving the lives of others, even if that means personal sacrifice, and I don't think paying taxes is THAT much of a sacrifice in order to provide health for those who can't afford it.

[Gil-Estel]

And I think that the input of all, that is, from all sites, mine, NB's, at least from all that obviously have thought about this matters, is showing us one thing: it is ignorant to claim to know the truth and arrogant to think that one's opinion is false.

Our views, our believes, our traditions have sources. We are heavily influenced by the world we live in. It is not bad to have an opinion, to strongly believe in what you think, but try to raise some perspective.

[Gate Troll]

Since people want to still argue: http://lotrtcgwiki.com/forums/index.php/topic,4322.new.html#new

[legolas3333]

In effect, the health care bill is the first step to socialistic America since the government is controlling an (important) area of our lives.

I don't want in on the debates, as I've found through personal experience that debating with north-americans can be really tiresome and leads nowhere most of the time, but we have a very similar healthcare system in Brasil as the one Obama intends to install, and we're nowhere NEAR being socialistic. We just acknowledge that SOME things in socialism might actually be good, the same way some things in capitalism are. I won't also discuss WHY I think this is "good" while you think it's not, just suffice it to say I'm all for saving the lives of others, even if that means personal sacrifice, and I don't think paying taxes is THAT much of a sacrifice in order to provide health for those who can't afford it.

I agree with you that some things in socialism are good and I think socialistic health care does work in certain countries; however, the problem I see with Obama's plan is that it does not tax equally, it would tax the young professionals and those who don't have "sufficient insurance" with the government deciding who has sufficient insurance. And I think that the way the American government is set up. Obama's health care plan does set a precedent for the government's power by giving it more than is allowed by the constitution. I wouldn't know if this is true in other countries.