Final Triumph and Coat of Mail

[Sam, Great Elf Warrior]

If a White Hand Scout (3-vitality) is skirmishing an exhausted Isildur, BoH who is bearing Coat of Mail and wearing The One Ring (so he can't be wounded to death), and the shadow player plays Final Triumph, is Isildur saved by Coat of Mail (because his strength wasn't tripled)?

In other words, when Final Triumph is played, what is the effect of Coat of Mail? Is it:
1) The Man cannot be overwhelmed unless his strength is tripled (for Coat of Mail) and his vitality is doubled (for normal overwhelm), because Coat of Mail specifically requires that the bearer's strength be tripled.
2) The Man cannot be overwhelmed unless his vitality is tripled, because Final Triumph changes Coat of Mail 's effect from strength to vitality (unlikely considering it doesn't do this for pumps).
3) The Man can be overwhelmed as long as his vitality is doubled, because Coat of Mail has no effect on skirmishes that are resolved using vitality.
4) The Man cannot be overwhelmed at all, because Coat of Mail keeps him from being overwhelmed unless his strength is tripled, but Final Triumph keeps strength from being compared to the minion's strength at all.

I'm leaning towards 1, because there's no reason why Coat of Mail shouldn't have its normal effect even where strength doesn't resolve the skirmish. If The Tale of the Great Ring can keep a companion from being overwhelmed in a skirmish where no shadow event was played, despite the fact that skirmishes are not resolved based on the number of events played, Coat of Mail should be able to keep a companion from being overwhelmed in a skirmish where his strength wasn't tripled, even if that skirmish wasn't resolved based on strength. I also see no reason why a companion's strength can't be tripled (option 4) just because the skirmish isn't resolved using strength (you can still compare stats, even when they aren't used for resolving the skirmish).

Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

[TheJord]

The answer is 3. Final Triumph changes the requirements for resolving a skirmish, so any modifiers to strength no longer apply. Only vitality modifiers now affect the resolution.

In your example, Isildur would be overwhelmed.

[Sam, Great Elf Warrior]

The answer is 3. Final Triumph changes the requirements for resolving a skirmish, so any modifiers to strength no longer apply. Only vitality modifiers now affect the resolution.

In your example, Isildur would be overwhelmed.

So then you view Coat of Mail as a strength modifier, and not as an adding a requirement for overwhelming (like The Tale of the Great Ring), correct?

[MuadDib85]

No. Coat of mail is not a strength modifier (it doesn't actually change the strength of the character), it would be in the same category as The Tale of The Great Ring.

The thing is once final triumph is played none of that matters. TheJord has it right.

[Sam, Great Elf Warrior]

So The Tale of The Great Ring wouldn't work against Final Triumph either?

[MR. Lurtzy]

It should still work.

[hrcho]

The Tale of the Great Ring can't work because Final Triumph is an event played during skirmish.

I have another question, though, related to the TToTGR:

Frodo is skirmishing an exhausted Gollum who is going to overwhelm him and plays PATH; Gollum prevents the wound with Sweeter Meats. Can TToTGR still have effect? Sweeter Meats is a response event but TToTGR doesn't say it has to be a skirmish event, just a shadow event played during that skirmish.

[MR. Lurtzy]

Any shadow event played during the skirmish phase would would cancel its effect. Doesn't matter if it's a response.

[legolas3333]

ok here's a related question, let's say i have an exhausted gandalf skirmishing white hand scout, i pass the first action and the shadow player plays a final triumph, i then play one last surprise, is the skirmish resolved as my resistance against his vitality? or for that scenario to happen would i need to play one last surprise first and the shadow player plays final triumph second?

[MR. Lurtzy]

The resistance would be used instead of his strength, but since final triumph has overruled the strength, OLS has no effect... I think.

[Elessar's Socks]

ok here's a related question, let's say i have an exhausted gandalf skirmishing white hand scout, i pass the first action and the shadow player plays a final triumph, i then play one last surprise, is the skirmish resolved as my resistance against his vitality? or for that scenario to happen would i need to play one last surprise first and the shadow player plays final triumph second?

I don't think the rules are clear on this, but the part I'm looking at is the "instead of" phrasing. I interpret this to mean that in order for the card to take effect, the character must currently be using the value the effect says to replace. So that gives:

Final Triumph / OLS: companion's vitality vs. minion's vitality - OLS fails to take effect because when it's played, neither character is using strength to resolve that skirmish.

OLS / Final Triumph: Gandalf's resistance vs. minion's vitality - Final Triumph takes partial effect (perform as much as you can) because when it's played, only the minion is using strength to resolve that skirmish.

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As for the situation with Coat of Mail... heh, the last attempt at a rulings document here ended on this note (well, Bounder is close enough). I'll have to think about this.

[Smeagollum]

So The Tale of The Great Ring wouldn't work against Final Triumph either?

Wanted to say the same as hrco!

[TelTura]

Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

it seems to me that the coat of mail's effect is not diminished.  it has two separate parts: 1)Effect (bearer may not be overwhelmed) and 2)Cost (minion's strength is less than triple the bearer's).  If put into these terms, cost and effect, which have already been extensively debated on, it would seem that the bearer (Isildur) would be invincible to overwhelming unless his strength were tripled.  Coat of Mail's effect does not in any way affect the outcome of skirmishes, only the definition of overwhelming.  Another card changed the way the skirmish resolution is calculated, but overwhelming remains untouched....even if his vitality were tripled, he could not be overwhelmed unless his strength was tripled, also.  So, even if it were a vitality - 10 minion against Isildur's 1, he could not be overwhelmed unless his strength proper were tripled also. 

[Smeagollum]

TelTura, I think you're right.

[TheJord]

Coat of Mail isnt a cost/effect card. It prevents a certain situation from occuring, like how Rallying Cry stops the FP removing threats. However, the situation it prevents can no longer occur because strength is no longer a factor in the outcome of the skirmish.