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Author Topic: V1: Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor  (Read 39651 times)

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March 28, 2011, 11:41:36 AM
Reply #105

Thranduil

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Re: V1: Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor
« Reply #105 on: March 28, 2011, 11:41:36 AM »
I think if we're looking for a card that has the maximum impact on deckbuilding (ie. the most likely sort of card to make a tale deck viable), then we should be looking strongly at:

i) Cards that make more tales (it doesn't have to be permanent necessarily, could be a temporary effect)
ii) Cards that give tales extra utility
iii) Cards that help you set up tale strategies

These are most of the cards posted above, but I think we should be using these as criteria for which is the best card at doing the job assigned to it: making a tale deck more viable.

From a deckbuilding standpoint, my first instinct would that option (i) is the best as it immediately opens up whole new possibilities that would never have been there before.

However, thinking more about it, I suspect that there actually isn't enough to be done with tales in Movie block (and possibly A Dragon's Tale / Pippin, Steadfast Friend could be slightly degenerate or annoying) to make (i) the best criteria.

In fact, I think our choice then hinges on exactly how much there is the game currently for you to do with tales. How many cards are there that give tales utility? (Like Red Book of Westmarch, A Dragon's Tale, Pippin, Steadfast Friend etc.) If there are "lots", then I would suggest we look specifically at criteria (iii). If there aren't, then I think the best card for deckbuilding would be chosen by criteria (ii).

Is my ranting making sense? Please tell me if it's not! ;)

Thran

March 28, 2011, 12:08:44 PM
Reply #106

FM

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Re: V1: Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor
« Reply #106 on: March 28, 2011, 12:08:44 PM »
I think we should narrow it down to 1-3 cards in each category, and go with your reasoning, meaning, choosing the criteria we want to match more. How's this for the process? If we narrow it to 1 card per criteria, we could playtest the STRATEGIES, rather than the cards, and see which has the most impact.

March 28, 2011, 12:11:13 PM
Reply #107

Thranduil

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Re: V1: Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor
« Reply #107 on: March 28, 2011, 12:11:13 PM »
I think we should narrow it down to 1-3 cards in each category, and go with your reasoning, meaning, choosing the criteria we want to match more. How's this for the process? If we narrow it to 1 card per criteria, we could playtest the STRATEGIES, rather than the cards, and see which has the most impact.
Agreed! So we ought to try and choose/edit/produce a version for each criteria that most represents that strategy.

Thran

March 28, 2011, 03:48:02 PM
Reply #108

Thranduil

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Re: V1: Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor
« Reply #108 on: March 28, 2011, 03:48:02 PM »
Okay so these are my thoughts of cards that best represent each of those three criteria (all inspired by cards posted above). We can then discuss them. I'm choosing/tweaking/designing these cards & abilities based solely on what I think represents the strategies best, not any other considerations, so please take no offense. And I'm always open to people disagreeing with my choices! (Though, as I say below, when you're playtesting a strategy, the details of the card shouldn't matter, just the direction).

i) Telling tales...
[2]Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V) [Dwarven]
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Signet: Gandalf
Damage +1.
While you can spot Gandalf, each [Dwarven] support area condition is a tale.
Fellowship: Exert Gimli twice to play a [Dwarven] support area condition from your discard pile.

NOTE: Regroup recursion has often shown itself to be too powerful (eg. Treebeard, Keeper of the Watchwood) because there are many conditions which are balanced by the fact that you have to keep them around (eg. Reckless Pride, et al) so I moved it to fellowship. I also tentatively skirted the problem of Dwarven Heart by restricting both abilities to support area conditions, which sort of makes sense anyway. The thing that worries me about this card is how friendly it will be with Pippin, Steadfast Friend and A Dragon's Tale—but I'm pretty sure that in Movie block it will be fine.

ii) Extra utility...
[2]Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V) [Dwarven]
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Signet: Aragorn
Damage +1.
Skirmish: Discard a tale from play or from hand to make a companion of that tale's culture strength +1 and damage +1.

NOTE: I'm not sure of the virtues of doing it this multicultural route or a more [Dwarven] focussed route or something like "discard a [Dwarven] tale to make a companion strength +2..." or something else. It did certainly seem to me that the best way to push a tale strategy over the top in this criteria was a tool to help your team survive. I added the damage bonus to make it feel more like a [Dwarven] card. What worries me about this card is that it might conflict with other discarding tale cards, like A Dragon's Tale and Balin's Tomb, which could lead to frustrating deckbuilding decisions. However, I doubt there are enough of those to make this a real problem.

iii) Setting up...
[2]Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V) [Dwarven]
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Signet: Aragorn
Damage +1.
At the start of the regroup phase, you may exert Gimli to play a tale from your discard pile.

NOTE: This seemed the cleanest and simplest build, notwithstanding my comments about regroup recursion generally being problematic for balance. However, this avoids some of that issue by only recurring tales. I'm also not sure about doing it by recursion or by tutoring—tutoring is obviously the better one for setting up a deck early game, while recursion can only make it more consistent late game. On the other hand, I don't think there are any other particular tale recursion cards, whereas The Council of Elrond might have it on the tutoring front. On yet another hand, does Bilbo, BotB already have the "play tales in the regroup phase" thing covered? which might be a different argument for moving it to fellowship.

So, as FM suggested, I think we should run with similar cards to these and sound out some new strategies for each one. Take one, build a tale deck, see if you like the strategy and if it's any good. Try different formats (particularly Standard and Movie). In order to playtest a strategy, the details of the cards don't matter that much. And, in this approach, you should feel free to tweak the numbers as you're playing because what feels right in your head is not necessarily what will feel right when you actually play. So all in all, I think with a bit of discussion, we should be ready to go!

Thranduil

March 29, 2011, 04:00:17 AM
Reply #109

ket_the_jet

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Re: V1: Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor
« Reply #109 on: March 29, 2011, 04:00:17 AM »
[2]Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V) [Dwarven]
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Signet: Gandalf
Damage +1.
While you can spot Gandalf, each [Dwarven] support area condition is a tale.
Fellowship: Exert Gimli twice to play a [Dwarven] support area condition from your discard pile.

This goes for the first and third entry on this list, but I believe that playing cards from the discard pile is more in the [Dwarven] theme than the draw deck. I can't think of a [Dwarven] "play from draw deck" card; most of them are the "discard three and take one," etc., which is more with the idea of Dwarves being diggers.

I think that the change to "Support Area" condition makes sense in this case.

[2]Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V) [Dwarven]
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Signet: Aragorn
Damage +1.
Skirmish: Discard a tale from play or from hand to make a companion of that tale's culture strength +1 and damage +1.

This is the one that I like the least of the three; I just think the wording is awkward and adding a damage bonus to a few cultures who do not intrinsically have them--[Shire], specifically--could be problematic.

I was never particularly fond of companions that had built-in strength pump skirmish actions as abilities without having an exert to balance that out. Gimli, Son of Gloin, Gimli, Unbidden Guest, and Legolas, Elven Comrade are examples of of cards where they got it right--a bit of risk/reward there. At the very least, I would think that this Gimli would need a limit of 1 or 2 which I know people won't like.

[2]Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V) [Dwarven]
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Signet: Aragorn
Damage +1.
At the start of the regroup phase, you may exert Gimli to play a tale from your discard pile.

Again, I think the "playing from regroup" is the best call as I explained earlier. Draw deck tutoring for specific cards should be limited to what it is now--A Wizard Is Never Late, Simbelmyne, and The Council of Elrond, Theoden, Tall and Proud (specifically, his death) among a few others; these cards represent some of the most powerful themes and histories in Middle Earth and they are the sort of things that would become tales. Sure, Gimli himself became a tale--he basically started the [Dwarven]-[Elven] friendship thing, but unlike Theoden, Tall and Proud, which really tells about the epic tale of a king's death, Gimli doesn't have a big historical showing of chilling in the regroup phase (or Fellowship phase or whatever people would end up preferring).

Bilbo, Bearer of Things Burgled and Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V) don't really fall into the same jurisdiction as Bilbo can only play the cards from hand. In fact, if one was trying, he or she could probably find a great strategy for the two cards to potentially be played together. Maybe Gimli to grab a tale, Red Book of Westmarch to draw one (which might be a tale) that Bilbo could play? Worst case scenario, you could lose and gain initiative a few times and manipulate A Light In His Mind, right?*
-wtk



_____________
* P.S., I really don't have a problem with that as it is way harder to pull off than a The Shire Countryside, A Light In His Mind combination in the Fellowship phase or even the skirmish phase and would require careful planning.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2011, 04:01:57 AM by ket_the_jet »

March 29, 2011, 04:34:35 AM
Reply #110

FM

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Re: V1: Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor
« Reply #110 on: March 29, 2011, 04:34:35 AM »
Personally, I liked your choices for entries number 1 and 3, but would change number 2 for this one:

[2]Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V) [Dwarven]
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Signet: Aragorn
Damage +1
Fellowship: Play a [Dwarven] tale from your hand to heal a Dwarf or discard a condition.

However, the regroup ability is way over the top, even with the low [Dwarven] tale count, so I'd tweak it to only affect conditions that are played on companions (or even lose the condition part altogether).

March 29, 2011, 06:15:21 AM
Reply #111

FM

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Re: V1: Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor
« Reply #111 on: March 29, 2011, 06:15:21 AM »
Neither do I, but it COULD be a nice addition. Also, to do so, they must: a) forsake other Gimlis for this one and b) play tales. It's different from an event or condition that can deal with shadow conditions, which I would be against. Or a toss-in companion, for instance. But the ability, on an iconic companion that forces a choice, is more than fine. Specially when it does not deal with ANY condition, but rather just those afflicting a character (and it also fits flavour, since Gimli was a bit of an enthusiast - which tends to "lift the spirits" of others - upon arriving at the council, right until his axe was shattered, of course!).

March 29, 2011, 06:47:52 AM
Reply #112

macheteman

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Re: V1: Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor
« Reply #112 on: March 29, 2011, 06:47:52 AM »
tales already had bilbo for condition removal. :up:

March 29, 2011, 07:31:30 AM
Reply #113

FM

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Re: V1: Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor
« Reply #113 on: March 29, 2011, 07:31:30 AM »
Good catch.

March 29, 2011, 07:52:00 AM
Reply #114

macheteman

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Re: V1: Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor
« Reply #114 on: March 29, 2011, 07:52:00 AM »
my TS dwarven tales deck works like this: 9 comps with a dwarven core, gloin, ftt + mines of kazad dum + bilbo, wsgh + red book of westmarch.

then a hodge-podge of dwarven tales play a tale or two mass heal, draw a card, bilbo to clear conditions, and the tale's text can sometimes monkey wrench the opponent if they happen to be playing moria or something.

greatest kingdom of my people, stairs of kazad dum, and then till durin wakes again really helps on a double move.

it is very strong in healing and condition removal, archery is fairly easy to defend because there are so many comps to share the load, then just heal everyone with tales. its main weaknesses are that if it doens't set up well you can easily lose gloin early, and it can be very tough to win skirmishes. its more of a scrappy survival deck than anything. ticks your opponent off if they can't keep wounds on your fellowship or conditions on the table.

all that to say, healing and condition removal are not especially necessary for a tales deck, of course tales healing outside of [Dwarven] is limited at best, so there is still some room for improvement.

March 29, 2011, 09:20:55 AM
Reply #115

Thranduil

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Re: V1: Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor
« Reply #115 on: March 29, 2011, 09:20:55 AM »
my TS dwarven tales deck works like this: 9 comps with a dwarven core, gloin, ftt + mines of kazad dum + bilbo, wsgh + red book of westmarch.

then a hodge-podge of dwarven tales play a tale or two mass heal, draw a card, bilbo to clear conditions, and the tale's text can sometimes monkey wrench the opponent if they happen to be playing moria or something.

greatest kingdom of my people, stairs of kazad dum, and then till durin wakes again really helps on a double move.

it is very strong in healing and condition removal, archery is fairly easy to defend because there are so many comps to share the load, then just heal everyone with tales. its main weaknesses are that if it doens't set up well you can easily lose gloin early, and it can be very tough to win skirmishes. its more of a scrappy survival deck than anything. ticks your opponent off if they can't keep wounds on your fellowship or conditions on the table.

all that to say, healing and condition removal are not especially necessary for a tales deck, of course tales healing outside of [Dwarven] is limited at best, so there is still some room for improvement.
So playtest these Gimlis in your tale deck! ;) You don't need slips or anything, nor even to know the exact numbers or details of the card. Throw a Gimli in your starting fellowship, use one of the abilities above, see what happens!

Thran

March 31, 2011, 02:02:16 PM
Reply #116

Kralik

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Re: V1: Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor
« Reply #116 on: March 31, 2011, 02:02:16 PM »
I am awesome.

My vote goes to anything BUT ket's submission. Pffft. :P

OK, so I've been out a bit, but I like what I've been seeing. Just wanted to throw my two cents in here (again) and strongly suggest that FotR cards are appropriate to FotR block rules. Keep signets! No resistance for companions! I'd venture to say that most of the designers here are fonder of Movie Block than Standard/Expanded, and we're perfectly happy to keep (new) old cards in line with the old rulesets. ;)

So playtest these Gimlis...!

Find a friend, decide on which one to use, and take it to the GCCG playtesting table!

I'll look into coding things once the designs have been playtested sufficiently and finalized.

March 31, 2011, 02:46:58 PM
Reply #117

TheJord

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Re: V1: Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor
« Reply #117 on: March 31, 2011, 02:46:58 PM »
We need dedicated playtesters.

I will provide reward for said playtesters.
"The rule of Gondor is mine!"

March 31, 2011, 02:56:01 PM
Reply #118

macheteman

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Re: V1: Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor
« Reply #118 on: March 31, 2011, 02:56:01 PM »
the tough part is finding other players on GCCG who want to play against a deck that isn't official. if we make a board of people we might have a better chance of linking people who are willing to give it a go.