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Author Topic: Vancouver Riots  (Read 2307 times)

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June 23, 2011, 10:17:57 AM
Reply #15

TheJord

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Re: Vancouver Riots
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2011, 10:17:57 AM »
I think that had the Vancouver Police Department started using excessive or lethal force, they would be more vilified than the rioters.

The protection of property does not warrant deadly force. Civil protection, as in the protection of the ability of the public to remain in the public, also does not warrant deadly force.

If the rioters had guns, different story, but I still think its hard to scale the violence and say "at this point, we get lethal".
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June 23, 2011, 05:11:14 PM
Reply #16

SomeRandomDude

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Re: Vancouver Riots
« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2011, 05:11:14 PM »
Quote
I'm sorry, and this is based on... what?

Observations on Brazil come from you....

Quote
Drugdealers in slums here have had access to armor-piercing rounds, assault rifles, sub-machine guns and grenades for the better part of a decade, and still, they carried those ostensively in the slums to repress the population, but seldom used them. Even when confronting the police, you simply woulnd't see a grenade being tossed against them. Them, a while back, the authorities decided they had enough (there were other things involved, but just to give the short version) and sent the marines and the army up the slums alongside the Police's Elite Squad, to smoke out the druglords once and for all. It took 2 days, and the slums were clear. They didn't kill them, they arrested a ton of people, but they did respond with deadly force whenever they were met with resistance (and resistance in this clase includev molotovs, blunt-weapon assaults or gunshots, you name it) and they DID kill some people (wounded a lot more, though it's fair game in my opinion if it makes you not kill them).


Observations on Canada and the United States come from living in one and having visited the other.

Now that that's out of the way...

Yes, Canada and the United States are very similar (at least Southern Canada, where I've been, and where the riots were occurring). I was specifically referring to western liberal democratic governmental systems, general principles of law and order and accepted parameters under which society functions.

In Brazil, as noted, you have powerful, militant, armed sects that are openly flaunting governmental control. The government has to assert its control in order to maintain law and order.

In Canada, its generally respected, there's been a culture which has long established the government as legitimate. It no longer needs lethal action to establish its legitimacy. It can maintain peace without lethal force, so it shouldn't use lethal force.
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June 24, 2011, 06:38:06 AM
Reply #17

FM

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Re: Vancouver Riots
« Reply #17 on: June 24, 2011, 06:38:06 AM »
Now I have to agree, you've expressed your points fairly enough.
The thing is, from a more practical point of view, Canada, as a "non-violent" country in its core, using lethal force would be "bad for business", I think. Problem is, angry mobs spiral out of control too quickly, and as I said, lighting cars filled with gasoline on fire is not entirely that safe, property issue aside. Of course, it's not like I'd be there and go "hey, I pay my taxes, so I want to be able to take a walk even though the world is falling apart, so, hey, police officers, shoot them down!" But a lot of people would be taking said walks, as it's customary, with Canada, again, being a non-violent country in its nature. I also agree they'd be villified more if they did open fire, even if only on special cases, since people will always side with peers, and in the majority of the cases, that'd mean "not being the authorities". On the other hand, I think law enforcement is not to be concerned by this, their job is to be neutral, not to think about what others will think of them for it. I work with criminal law, and I'll illustrate my point of view with an example: a while ago, he had an evangelic priest being accused of 2 accounts of rape - a 16-year old and a 12-year old. Every hearing we had was a nightmare, the churchees would all come down to the Court House wearing shirts, saying their prayers and asking for the priest to be release, holding hands and making a praying circle around the whole Court House. They were strictly pacific, but it did a strong showing on local television and such, and the public system was as villified as possible, to the extent of sunday's cult on said church being about asking God to save the innocent priest and punishing the wicked legal workers that had him incarcerated, and all. Talk about villifying. The Public Prosecutor went beyond his mind to do what was best during the investigation, and actually found 2 more accounts of rape, with the same modus operandi, in close towns that were going to be closed down due to lack of evidence. He got the victims to talk about it, found out they described the same person, the same car (into where he dragged them), the same story, and thus had the lawsuits reunited. The priest's attorney, the day they'd do the final hearing, with the procedure for recognition by the victims, went as far as to have the priest grow a beard, shave his head, dress in clothes less formal than he usually did and change shirts between each victim leaving the room and the other coming in, and the 4 of them still pointed him out with no doubt, even the 12-year old, and he was found guilty and sentenced to some good 40 or 50 years in prison. So yeah, as law enforcement goes, I think neutrality surpasses public opinion if confronted.
Of course, I think it's important to mention that things like the use of lethal force have rules and regulations, it does not mean shooting a kid smashing a shop's window or shooting someone lighting a car on fire in the back of their heads. No. Lethal force does not mean they should kill people, it just means they can, if necessary, and that they now have access to real bullets, for instance. Rubber bullets might go a long way, but they won't stop an alcohol-filled angry person - or just an angry enough person, adrenalyne does wonders in the brink of action, believe me - and when you are finally able to do it, it might be too late, they may have smashed a kid on the head with a mannequin for wearing the colors (not even the jersey, I've seen that happen, the guy didn't even care about the sport in question at the time, he was just wearing a blue shirt and the winning team wore blue/white) of the opposing team, for instance. I don't know, I might be wrong, and they might have had access to lethal force and simply not used it for lack of need, though what I basically mean by my argument is that, if they did need to use it, I wouldn't be so fast as to side against them.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2011, 09:34:37 AM by FM »

June 24, 2011, 09:25:58 AM
Reply #18

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Re: Vancouver Riots
« Reply #18 on: June 24, 2011, 09:25:58 AM »
Forgot to mention, but about quis custodiet ipsos custodes, it's kind of a circular logic, since it'll always be a valid question, since you will always have to cap the ascenscion at some point, at which they'll ask that question. Cute for classroom discussion, but in reality, it simply must be capped at some point, and we have to just take it and pray that we did the best job possible in placing those on the highest position there in the first place, so they'll do a good job, bearing with the fact that the answer to the latin motto will have to be "no one" at some point.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2011, 09:36:16 AM by FM »

June 24, 2011, 11:46:25 AM
Reply #19

SomeRandomDude

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Re: Vancouver Riots
« Reply #19 on: June 24, 2011, 11:46:25 AM »
Independent third party watchdog organizations with merely altruistic concerns and no thought of remuneration.

Or, the freemasons. If you're into that stuff.
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June 24, 2011, 01:39:46 PM
Reply #20

FM

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Re: Vancouver Riots
« Reply #20 on: June 24, 2011, 01:39:46 PM »
Ok, so now the freemason's are the ones who'll watch over everyone? And who'll watch over them?

June 24, 2011, 01:46:18 PM
Reply #21

macheteman

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Re: Vancouver Riots
« Reply #21 on: June 24, 2011, 01:46:18 PM »
bob marley. :up:

June 24, 2011, 01:47:59 PM
Reply #22

FM

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Re: Vancouver Riots
« Reply #22 on: June 24, 2011, 01:47:59 PM »
He'd be too stoned to watch anybody. :P

June 24, 2011, 05:59:19 PM
Reply #23

SomeRandomDude

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Re: Vancouver Riots
« Reply #23 on: June 24, 2011, 05:59:19 PM »
Ok, so now the freemason's are the ones who'll watch over everyone? And who'll watch over them?

 :o Nobody watches the freemasons. Nobody.
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June 25, 2011, 10:34:57 AM
Reply #24

Gil-Estel

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Re: Vancouver Riots
« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2011, 10:34:57 AM »
Cute for classroom discussion, but in reality, it simply must be capped at some point, and we have to just take it and pray that we did the best job possible in placing those on the highest position there in the first place,

For classroom discussion? It is imho the most vital question for any organisation, countries and companies a like. It sharpens the debate about responsibility. Can we be sure that those entrusted with great powers, can be held responsible for the use those powers? This is not an easy task, but especially when it comes to making decisions about lifes of others it should always be taken in consideration. Not to keep the debate going circulair, but because you should not take it for granted
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June 25, 2011, 08:03:31 PM
Reply #25

SomeRandomDude

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Re: Vancouver Riots
« Reply #25 on: June 25, 2011, 08:03:31 PM »
Or you can make the debate go circular. A government governs the people from whence it draws its consent. Who watches the government? The people. Who watches the people? The government. And thus traditional societal standards hold. It works that way.
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June 25, 2011, 08:25:57 PM
Reply #26

sickofpalantirs

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Re: Vancouver Riots
« Reply #26 on: June 25, 2011, 08:25:57 PM »


Ok, so now the freemason's are the ones who'll watch over everyone? And who'll watch over them?

Theodore Roosevelt.
Felipe Musco:
(after all, it's a CHARITY organization, I still have SOME principles, even having gone through Law School... :P),
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June 26, 2011, 05:19:06 AM
Reply #27

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Re: Vancouver Riots
« Reply #27 on: June 26, 2011, 05:19:06 AM »
Go ahead, hack my posts why don't you?
« Last Edit: June 26, 2011, 07:20:53 PM by Gate Troll »

June 26, 2011, 05:29:29 AM
Reply #28

SomeRandomDude

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Re: Vancouver Riots
« Reply #28 on: June 26, 2011, 05:29:29 AM »
That's what they want you to think...
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June 27, 2011, 05:15:28 AM
Reply #29

FM

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Re: Vancouver Riots
« Reply #29 on: June 27, 2011, 05:15:28 AM »
Ok, so I guess we've settled that the Freemasons from Canada stopped a massacre from happeing with the rioters because they did not let lethal force be used by the government, is that it? o.O