Second Edition Brainstorm

[Ringbearer]

But splintering the communitee doesnt help either, driving people apart over own rules/formats.

[Hobbiton Lad]

I can say with 99% certainty I won't be releasing these templates for community use, because I don't want a bunch of dream cards floating around the forums that aren't "official" for Second Edition. I know what you're going for with the "free market" approach, but the only way to create an equal opportunity for everyone in competitive environments is to have everyone play by the same set of rules.

[neopium]

I agree with Hobbiton Lad and Ringbearer.

"Free market" will just prevent the "second edition" from being consistent.

Maybe the form of the committee has to involve a part of the community but I think if you don't have a unique voice that say yes or no, it's going to be a mess.

Of course, consensus is not easy to reach (when it is reachable at all), but you can set up something that does not require unanimity.

Something like one vote for the committee, one for the community and in case of a draw, the community wins... And within each group (committee or community), a 2 thirds majority required (or just relative majority) to decide.

I don't know if this can work this way but you should avoid as much as possible:
- decisions made unilaterally: without the approval of a large part of the community, second edition will not have enough players to make the project viable
- absence of decision: as you have seen in this thread, sometimes the community is not very responsive, especially for very open questions. For the design of the templates, when the questions were easy (I like it, I don't) you had much more answers than here where you just ask what to do. And when I say "much more answers", it is very relative: how many people answered in total to the templates thread? 10 tops?
Another example is the current discussion about sanctioning "rage quitting". While the answer seemed quite obvious, people don't manage to agree on that point. If you really manage to launch this project, you will face plenty of those cases where the community can't find consensus. This is were you need the committee to decide.

[Hobbiton Lad]

I think for the time being I'm going to take a stern hand in making decisions about 2E until other people step up and show interest. I've posted a topic in the "PC or no PC" forum about Reprints. I'm thinking that forum might be a better place to talk about a new game edition than this one.

[Cw0rk]

I think for the time being I'm going to take a stern hand in making decisions about 2E until other people step up and show interest.

This is a good approach. It's good that you ask the community to give their ideas, but don't rely too much on them to make decisions or it will become an endless voting process.

A lot of community projects fail to materialize because they rely too much on the community. BTW, has any of TLHH community project been successful until now? This community project, for example, was much less ambitious than your second edition project and died a long time ago:
http://lotrtcgwiki.com/forums/index.php/board,52.0.html

That's why I thought the 'free market' approach was better, because too many community projects end up failing. If you don't make your templates public, which is perfectly understandable, build your own group of trusted qualified people (or do it alone) and take most decisions.

[fenix]

I am interested in helping with this project and willing to commit large amounts of time every week to it. I think that those interested in producing a 2E should begin on this immediately so that it can be released while the Hobbit is popular. I also believe that cards should be created from the Hobbit movies.

 There will be no better time to start doing this. I also believe that it would be wise to get a trial set on Gemp as soon as possible so that everyone who uses that site could be a play tester.

[Helkadal]

I'm kinda lost here. Have you explained the whole project somewhere I can read? I'd like to help in whatever ways I can, but I'm not sure what's this about.

Or is it just a new set of cards and rules to be applied on Gemp? Will it work exactly as Gemp? What I don't like in Gemp is that the main thing is playing casual games with all existing cards, instead of building a collection (and it being useful). I totally agree that playing with all cards should be an option, but it should be separated from those who wanna build a collection and play only with those cards.

Anyway, I could express my opinion and brainstorm on many topics, but I'd have to understand this project first.

[fenix]

I agree that reprinting cards should be kept to a minimum, at least in the initial set. Below are a list of cards that I feel should be reprinted and my reasons.

Dwarf
Nobody Tosses a Dwarf

At their conception, dwarves were designed to cycle through their deck and discard their opponents. Nobody Tosses a Dwarf is integral to a discard deck and adds more strategy to the shadow player since sometimes it would be better not to play any minions and avoid the potential loss of three cards.


Elf
Elven Bow

Elven bow is a classic elf card. It is simple, appropriately powered and costly, and an important part of a wounding deck.


Gandalf
A Wizard is Never Late
Servant of the Secret Fire

Classic Cards, Support the feel of a Gandalf deck


Gondor
Boromir, Son of Denethor
Faramir, Son of Denethor

I always liked how Boromir, SoD was useful and had a feel so close to how he was in the story. Faramir is a great card to prevent events and special abilities from being overpowered. Since he is not culturally enforced, any deck can play him. He is a useless character if the meta doesn't have powerful skirmish special events or special abilities, while also being a powerful check to those strategies if they become too powerful.



Rohan
Eomer, Third Marshal of Riddermark
Elite Rider
Rider's Mount

I thought that Decipher got the feel of Rohan exactly right with Eomer, TMoR and their original mounts. Having any character mounted adds a small benefit of exerting minions, but in the hands of a skilled rider, they are much more deadly. I choose rider's mount instead of Horse of Rohan because I felt mounts should be unique to rohan with few unique exceptions.

Shire
Hobbit Sword
Hobbit Intuition
Hobbit Stealth
A Promise

Again, I felt like the hobbit stealth cards were useful in the game and emulated the feel of hobbits in the story. I believe that these should be reprinted to recover that feel. I liked these instead of the TTT stealths because I felt like they were more true to the hobbits character arcs, being forced to fight after they reached the point in the story where hiding was no longer possible. A promise is just a good, appropriately costed card that is true to the feel of Frodo and Sam's relationship in the story. Hobbit Sword is Hobbit Sword.

Gollum
Shelob, Her Ladyship

Shelob, HL also is an example of an extremely useful card that emulates her feel in the story. I loved how removing characters from skirmishes felt like trapping them in webs for that turn. Removing characters from skirmish are a good way to keep overpowered companions in check.

Dunland
Hides
War club

Classic Dunland cards. Dunland wouldn't have the same feel without them.



Isengard
Saruman's Power
Grima, Wormtongue

Grima is important for keeping companions power in check. While most people hated Grima when he was first released, Fellowship block and TTT open was ridiculous. Having companions that are able to bear several support cards will make fellowships overpowered and limit the ability to design new and exciting possessions. Saruman's Power is a classic Isengard card that exemplifies Saruman as a shadow version of Gandalf. Saruman's Power also helps prevent condition based decks from being overpowered.


Moria
Goblin Runner
Goblin Scimitar

Classic swarm cards

Sauron
Grond, Hammer of the Underworld

Powerful Sauron card that could keep possessions, conditions, and artifacts from becoming overpowered.

Nazgul
Ulaire Enquea, Lieutenant of Morgul
Black Breath
Blade Tip

Enquea is a great way to keep large fellowships from running rampant. Black Breath and Blade Tip are good cards that also stay close to their feel in the story

[Hobbiton Lad]

Some of the reprints are excellent ideas (Goblin Runner, Goblin Scimitar, and Grond, Hammer of the Underworld immediately come to mind) as they are truly beneficial cards that add much-needed viability to their respective cultures.

Then we come to some of the other problem cards (Nobody Tosses a Dwarf, Ulaire Enquea, LoM and Eomer, TMoR) in the list.

Honestly, I'm not in favor of developing heavy discard strategies. There's a reason that almost every CCG in existence ends up banning cards that are too abusive (ex: Mirror of Galadriel in LotR, Hymn to Tourach in Magic) with discard mechanics. Cards are meant to be played. When you take away the ability to play the cards, regardless of their relative usefulness in a given game situation, you create the very definition of a negative play experience. As a side note, this is also why I would be against heavy development of choke strategies.

Then we come to Enquea. A great card, to be sure, but the problem is that it has absolutely no cultural enforcement. Should there be cards that punish large fellowships? Absolutely. But those cards need to be unique and enforced within each particular Shadow culture. Otherwise nearly every deck will run Enquea, and that's really not what a good game designer wants.

And finally Eomer. I'm torn on this one. He's very, very good. Almost too good. A lot of people would immediately say he's broken, but the problem with Eomer-based decks was never Eomer by himself. Both Firefoot (defender +1) and Eomer's Spear (damage +2) contributed to the utter silliness he brought to the game when skirmishing any minion with more than 1 vitality. I'd probably be inclined to reprint Eomer with the caveat that his items not be as overpowered as their 1E counterparts.

[neopium]

I have to disagree with Grond, Hammer of the Underworld

I think this card is as broken as Galadriel, LR.

The capability, at a very reduced cost, to discard ANY free people card is way overpowered. If it was limited to possessions or conditions, it could have been fine. But any card, this is really too much.

Another possibility would have been to activate it during shadow phase, where discarding a minion is much more difficult to do than at regroup...

[neopium]

I also agree that shotgun enquea should have cultural enforcement. Desert Lord and Radagast as well. There are a few cards like that.

Regarding Eomer, I agree he is very strong, especially when fully equiped. But I don't think he is broken: there are very few working strategies with Rohan and they are very dependent on possessions, that can easily be discarded.

[Hobbiton Lad]

Just an update. I'd say within a week there will be two Shadow cultures (Dunland and Isengard) that will be totally complete. Fenix has graciously offered to volunteer his time and we have already had a great working dialogue on how the new culture designs will work.

It's a very exciting time! I'm not really sure when these release candidates will be available for public view. My gut reaction is to put a culture out for display once our initial design is complete, but sometimes I think it's hard to gauge cards when you don't have a complete view of the set.

What do you guys think? Would you rather see the whole set once it's finished? Or would you rather see cultures as they are completed?

[Hobbiton Lad]

I'm kinda lost here. Have you explained the whole project somewhere I can read? I'd like to help in whatever ways I can, but I'm not sure what's this about.

Or is it just a new set of cards and rules to be applied on Gemp? Will it work exactly as Gemp? What I don't like in Gemp is that the main thing is playing casual games with all existing cards, instead of building a collection (and it being useful). I totally agree that playing with all cards should be an option, but it should be separated from those who wanna build a collection and play only with those cards.

Anyway, I could express my opinion and brainstorm on many topics, but I'd have to understand this project first.

Second Edition will be a completely new set of cards developed from the existing LotR TCG rule set. In order to avoid copyright issues with Decipher, I have designed (with much input from the community) a set of new custom templates to use for this project.

You can view the promotional index here, but keep in mind that the game text on these cards will almost certainly change.

EDIT: Gallery link fixed.

[Helkadal]

"Simple" as that, huh?

(The link's broken, you shouldn't "my images" link, but I tracked back to the first topic) Nice cards! Visually, I mean, I know the content will be different. I don't know if you design them because I'm not used to the newer sets, only FotR and TTT, but they look great.

I'd like to know how we are going to play it. Do you mean for people to print the cards and play? Play on Gemp? On GCCG (lol, who uses it besides me?)? Build a new platform? A new platform would be GREAT. That would really motivate me to help. And that's a lot more important than thinking about the cards used! (Unless you already decided that)

To select the best parts out of what we have...
From Gemp:
- autorules would be of utmost importance!
- tournaments and leagues, sealed and constructed (only more often)
- possibility to play with any card you want (but this must be SECONDARY! Like a sandbox mode that doesn't give you any rewards or win/lose status)
From GCCG:
- platform should be based on COLLECTION - this should a TRADING/COLLECTIBLE card game above all
- you should get money for each match you finish (but not in "sandbox"), but a loooot less than what you get at GCCG.
- more comprehensive deck statistics (but not bugged, like GCCG's /deckstats lol)
From my stormed brain:
- (we maaaay consider levels for players to increase the sense of progress)
- I agree with some ppl from Gemp who says draft tournaments should be at least the price you'd pay for the draft boosters. Like booster prices + entry fee. But you should keep the cards when it's over. Great prizes for top players, of course, and some candy for losers.
- don't EVER EVER EVER charge real money! this should be from fans to fans! (just to be sure )
- unwanted cards should be sold to "merchant" for really low prices. between players, negotiable and ultimately a bit more expensive

And that's just for starters...

[Hobbiton Lad]

Of course this will not be for real money. I don't own this intellectual property. This is an "unofficial" project and is solely for community enjoyment and educational purposes.

With that being said, the intent is twofold:

1) Cards can be printed for real-life play
2) Virtual cards can be used for online play

At this point, I'm leaning toward Gemp as the online engine because it's a very easy platform to use (no special installs or anything like that needed) and MarcinS is very active in performing updates and fixes. Maybe with a little help on my end we can up the visual appeal of the interface, but I think the back-end coding is very solid.

Currently I am working with Fenix on design. I'm open to new volunteers, but this will be a very time-intensive project once we get rolling. I don't want people who say they are going to help and then flake out. I'm not saying this is you, but anytime you start a community project you have to deal with the fact that it's really hard to organize people -- especially online.