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Author Topic: Sanction "Rage Quitting" for Certain "Broken" Strategies on Gemp?  (Read 6816 times)

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December 01, 2012, 11:04:34 AM
Reply #15

Ringbearer

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Re: Sanction "Rage Quitting" for Certain "Broken" Strategies on Gemp?
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2012, 11:04:34 AM »
I find it serious poor sportmanship to ragequit. Also, its a thin line in ragequitting for other decks. Maybe I dont like your ents and find it a HUGE NPE, why shouldnt I ragequit. You create a HUGE precedent when allowing a ragequit.

December 01, 2012, 03:16:20 PM
Reply #16

bibfortuna25

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Re: Sanction "Rage Quitting" for Certain "Broken" Strategies on Gemp?
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2012, 03:16:20 PM »
Let's be clear:

Ragequitting and making your opponent wait 10 minutes = not OK
Conceding, no matter what the reason = OK
Knowingly playing in a format where you know broken combos are likely and then complaining when they're used against you = not OK
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December 02, 2012, 10:13:03 AM
Reply #17

sgtdraino

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Re: Sanction "Rage Quitting" for Certain "Broken" Strategies on Gemp?
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2012, 10:13:03 AM »
I find it serious poor sportmanship to ragequit.

99% of the time, I do too.

Also, its a thin line in ragequitting for other decks.

No it's not. No other "strategy" comes anywhere CLOSE to the ridiculousness of Gamling/Horn/New Chapter.

Maybe I dont like your ents and find it a HUGE NPE, why shouldnt I ragequit.

Presumeably because the creators and maintainers of Gemp wouldn't approve ragequitting for those Ents, because they're not truly broken like Gamling/Horn/New Chapter is. That's precisely why I suggest a list of officially frowned-upon strategies be developed.

You create a HUGE precedent when allowing a ragequit.

Nonsense. If the only approved ragequit turns out to be Gamling/Horn/New Chapter, then it is made quite clear that ragequitting against other deck types is verboten. This allows Gemp to express its disapproval of certain strategies without the need to change the rules or errata cards, while simultaneously allowing players to continue playing against such strategies if they want to, if any such players actually exist.

Let's be clear:

Ragequitting and making your opponent wait 10 minutes = not OK

Again, 99% of the time, I agree. And I myself have never ragequit a game. However, I think there should be negative consequences for players who persist in using strategies that are blatantly unfair. And you saying, "well, people should just stop playing Expanded" is throwing the baby out with the bath water. It's not helpful, and it's just your opinion.

Conceding, no matter what the reason = OK

It may be okay for you, but some of us care about our stats, and don't like them getting skewed unfairly.

And if conceding, no matter what reason = OK, then this is a nonissue. The Gamling/Horn/New Chapter player can simply concede immediately after the ragequit, not have to wait 10 minutes, and everything will be "OK."

Knowingly playing in a format where you know broken combos are likely and then complaining when they're used against you = not OK

<shrug> Your view is overly simplistic. The game, like life, is imperfect. Unfairness is going to happen to all of us, and it is better to address that unfairness, than to keep quiet, be a doormat, or stop playing. Life isn't fair, but you're not going to quit life are you?
« Last Edit: December 02, 2012, 10:15:55 AM by sgtdraino »
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December 02, 2012, 12:04:19 PM
Reply #18

MarcinS

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Re: Sanction "Rage Quitting" for Certain "Broken" Strategies on Gemp?
« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2012, 12:04:19 PM »
Rage-quitting is not fair for any reason. If you don't like to play against specific deck. Just excuse yourself politely ("Sorry, I don't enjoy playing against Horn decks") from the game and concede. Lets all behave like adults.
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December 02, 2012, 06:33:10 PM
Reply #19

bibfortuna25

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Re: Sanction "Rage Quitting" for Certain "Broken" Strategies on Gemp?
« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2012, 06:33:10 PM »
Since Horn is legal in Expanded, you cannot penalize people for using it in Expanded. Period. You can request that your opponent not use Horn if you want, but that's about all you can do. Same thing with LR in Movie Block. She is technically legal, so if you don't want to play against her, ask that your opponent not use her.
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December 03, 2012, 04:42:58 AM
Reply #20

FM

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Re: Sanction "Rage Quitting" for Certain "Broken" Strategies on Gemp?
« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2012, 04:42:58 AM »
Well, rage quiting is impolite, and a really jerky move. I think Gemp could have a functionality allowing people to add a small description to the games they create while waiting for opponents - outside of leagues, of course - (like "No Horn" and stuff), and that'd be about it. If a player comes into the table with a horn deck, you politely tell them you specified "No Horn", and they'll leave. If they don't, THEN I think it IS perfectly ok to just leave and let them hang there, it is written in the game's description you don't want to play against that, after all, that guy is the jerk this time (assuming you tell them their mistake and they still won't leave).
Any other way, I stand by what I said, it's NOT ok to make a person sit there for 10 minutes.
Sorry to say, but your friend comes across like a whinning #$&*@! when he does that, I'm not sure I'd want to play HIM, don't matter which deck he uses. And I think he should get a temporary ban for rage quitting matches, like any other player should, IMO.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2012, 05:08:01 AM by FM »

December 03, 2012, 05:06:49 AM
Reply #21

FM

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Re: Sanction "Rage Quitting" for Certain "Broken" Strategies on Gemp?
« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2012, 05:06:49 AM »
To adress some specific issues:

[No it's not. No other "strategy" comes anywhere CLOSE to the ridiculousness of Gamling/Horn/New Chapter.

Yes it is. You justify "I don't want to play against Moria decks packing Such a Little Thing because that is boring for my Boromir ARB deck", or "that Cave Troll deck wrecks my archery fellowship, I don't want to play against that", etc, because you have no official powers to justify the other change, so it's just "your reasoning", and why should anyone's reasoning be held above the others, after all? You cross this line, you corss it. You can't simply say "no, I'll cross it for this scenario, and not others",because you do not have the authority within the game to do that (but you CAN choose who you play against, so I think a description of what you don't want to play - or DO want to play - would work wonders already).

Presumeably because the creators and maintainers of Gemp wouldn't approve ragequitting for those Ents, because they're not truly broken like Gamling/Horn/New Chapter is. That's precisely why I suggest a list of officially frowned-upon strategies be developed.

And who decides what's truly broken? You? Sorry, not gonna happen, some people like playing broken against broken, for instance, or even fighting broken uphill (yeah, some people like to get hurt, what can we do?). Don't like it? Change formats.

Nonsense. If the only approved ragequit turns out to be Gamling/Horn/New Chapter, then it is made quite clear that ragequitting against other deck types is verboten. This allows Gemp to express its disapproval of certain strategies without the need to change the rules or errata cards, while simultaneously allowing players to continue playing against such strategies if they want to, if any such players actually exist.

And why should THIS be the only approved rage quit? Who decides? Again, I'll repeat what I say in every single thread about a Player's Comitee: without official powers from the game's owners, you can't do jack squat aside from just having a gentleman's agreement in your own, private games (which would be solved by the game description, like I said). In tournaments, everything goes, or you file it under "casual" format. There's NO such thing as "Movie Block - no LR" for a TOURNAMENT that expects people to follow the rules associated with it, it's either Movie Block, or Casual, and if I decide to play a Movie Block tournament and want to play LR, you can be damned sure I'd play it. Period. Again, don't like it? Don't play tournaments or change formats. It's a fine line between "adjusting" the rules and "ruling", and most people are not ready to cross it.

Again, 99% of the time, I agree. And I myself have never ragequit a game. However, I think there should be negative consequences for players who persist in using strategies that are blatantly unfair. And you saying, "well, people should just stop playing Expanded" is throwing the baby out with the bath water. It's not helpful, and it's just your opinion.

No, not 99%, 100% of the time, unless they're actively being an #$&*@! (and no, playing a deck you don't like is NOT being an #$&*@!). For consequences, there are. You just don't play them again. If they can still find games, then I think there are probably quite a few players that are ok with playing against Horn, so again, a nod that if YOU don't like it, YOU should be the one to adapt, not expect the world to bend and adjust.

It may be okay for you, but some of us care about our stats, and don't like them getting skewed unfairly.

And if conceding, no matter what reason = OK, then this is a nonissue. The Gamling/Horn/New Chapter player can simply concede immediately after the ragequit, not have to wait 10 minutes, and everything will be "OK."

If you care about your stats, then man up and face real competition, what good are stats when all you do is play against the decks you consider "fair"? Again, this is a fine line, one moment it's Horn, the other is whatever nukes your deck, even if it's your own fault for streamlining it so much it dies to a single card (yes, this happens). Care about stats? Play on tournaments - and be ready to face whatever is legal to get thrown at you in that format. If you have a problem with a deck in casual games, specify it (again, solved by a description tool, which is probably not that hard to implement anyway), or concede yorself, don't rage quit and expect the opponent to do it, it's not their fault at all.

<shrug> Your view is overly simplistic. The game, like life, is imperfect. Unfairness is going to happen to all of us, and it is better to address that unfairness, than to keep quiet, be a doormat, or stop playing. Life isn't fair, but you're not going to quit life are you?

No, we man up and face it, adapt, adjust. We certainly do not expect the world to accomodate our every need, like and dislike, or rage quit the room when someone says something you don't like, specially if it's someone you don't even know.



On an aside, I want to say I think Horn IS broken, and it IS an oppressive strategy. However, like I said a million times, without actual, real powers to legally change stuff around, I think stuff should no be changed and the players should adapt themselves, because there's a fine line between "fixing a broken strategy" and "tailoring the game to whatever you want", and most people are not ready to handle that kind of responsability, so I think they simply shouldn't have that kind of power.
If it's official, then it's a whole different matter, because you'd HOPE if they ever instated an official group to handle this kind of stuff, they'd actually care about making the choices, instead of just taking whomever volunteers.

December 03, 2012, 05:18:32 AM
Reply #22

Ringbearer

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Re: Sanction "Rage Quitting" for Certain "Broken" Strategies on Gemp?
« Reply #22 on: December 03, 2012, 05:18:32 AM »
Quote
On an aside, I want to say I think Horn IS broken, and it IS an oppressive strategy. However, like I said a million times, without actual, real powers to legally change stuff around, I think stuff should no be changed and the players should adapt themselves, because there's a fine line between "fixing a broken strategy" and "tailoring the game to whatever you want", and most people are not ready to handle that kind of responsability, so I think they simply shouldn't have that kind of power.
If it's official, then it's a whole different matter, because you'd HOPE if they ever instated an official group to handle this kind of stuff, they'd actually care about making the choices, instead of just taking whomever volunteers.

This.

December 03, 2012, 06:19:15 AM
Reply #23

bibfortuna25

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Re: Sanction "Rage Quitting" for Certain "Broken" Strategies on Gemp?
« Reply #23 on: December 03, 2012, 06:19:15 AM »
I really wish we did have an official Player's Committee for this game. Because one rule I would love to implement is that a player cannot replace his or her own site; you can only replace a site that your opponent has played. That would curb a lot of abusive strategies in Expanded/Standard that have your FP stay behind and constantly manipulate the site path to mess with your opponent's FP. But it's a moot point, and that's why I avoid Expanded unless there's a league in that format.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2012, 06:23:28 AM by bibfortuna25 »
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December 03, 2012, 06:32:30 AM
Reply #24

Hobbiton Lad

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Re: Sanction "Rage Quitting" for Certain "Broken" Strategies on Gemp?
« Reply #24 on: December 03, 2012, 06:32:30 AM »
Decipher will never sanction an official Player's Committee. That's something the community will have to take upon itself if it ever wants such a thing.

December 03, 2012, 07:18:48 AM
Reply #25

hsiale

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Re: Sanction "Rage Quitting" for Certain "Broken" Strategies on Gemp?
« Reply #25 on: December 03, 2012, 07:18:48 AM »
Quote from: FM
There's NO such thing as "Movie Block - no LR" for a TOURNAMENT
Well, in fact in latest Movie Block league played on Gemp one serie used this format (while another one used Movie Block as it was left by Decipher). I haven't played in this league, I'd be interested in some players commenting on how meta game changed if it changed significantly between those two series.

December 03, 2012, 07:38:43 AM
Reply #26

Hobbiton Lad

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Re: Sanction "Rage Quitting" for Certain "Broken" Strategies on Gemp?
« Reply #26 on: December 03, 2012, 07:38:43 AM »
I know lots of people run 2-4 copies of Terrible as the Dawn in Movie Block games where LR is legal.

December 03, 2012, 12:58:13 PM
Reply #27

FM

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Re: Sanction "Rage Quitting" for Certain "Broken" Strategies on Gemp?
« Reply #27 on: December 03, 2012, 12:58:13 PM »
Quote from: FM
There's NO such thing as "Movie Block - no LR" for a TOURNAMENT
Well, in fact in latest Movie Block league played on Gemp one serie used this format (while another one used Movie Block as it was left by Decipher). I haven't played in this league, I'd be interested in some players commenting on how meta game changed if it changed significantly between those two series.

Thing is, it's still not "Movie Block", it's "Casual". I think it's OK to shorten it and explain "it's the same as movie block, but with LR in the X-List", but if I create a game calling for "Movie Block" decks, LR is still legal.

As for the "if the community wants a PC, they have to do it themselves", it's what I said: they can't. In the end, it's just your playgroup playing casually with your own rules, which is more than fine, but they simply don't have the power to enforce the changes and force them onto the other players. In the end, this just fragments the community even more, and after a while the game will have SO many casual formats, it'll finally dwindle and die, since people will just play within their group of 4-6 people (if that many), until they lose interest due to playing against the same people (and the same decks) all the time.

December 03, 2012, 03:07:54 PM
Reply #28

MuadDib85

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Re: Sanction "Rage Quitting" for Certain "Broken" Strategies on Gemp?
« Reply #28 on: December 03, 2012, 03:07:54 PM »
This topic is laughable. Allowing rage quitting is ridiculous. Horn can be beaten as can Madril DoO roaming deck. Both are probably NPEs for the opponent, but if you don't like the game/format then don't play it, simple.

Rage-quitting is not fair for any reason. If you don't like to play against specific deck. Just excuse yourself politely ("Sorry, I don't enjoy playing against Horn decks") from the game and concede. Lets all behave like adults.
This.

December 07, 2012, 02:38:44 AM
Reply #29

MuadDib85

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Re: Sanction "Rage Quitting" for Certain "Broken" Strategies on Gemp?
« Reply #29 on: December 07, 2012, 02:38:44 AM »
http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=MuadDib85$72dk6zz8b6b66v9m

Here is a link that helps show why Madril DoO is comparable to horn deck in power and also why it could be considered a NPE for the opponent. I'm sure there are better examples, this is the first time I build and use Madril deck. I won this game on player time out...