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Author Topic: High King loop/telepathy - Nazgul  (Read 20175 times)

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December 17, 2013, 09:41:07 AM
Reply #15

sgtdraino

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Re: High King loop/telepathy - Nazgul
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2013, 09:41:07 AM »
I've been thinking of pitching the 1st Celebring to Erkenbrand's Horn then the next turn Gamling could fetch a Brego (then transfer it after it healed him) and find a 2nd Celebring, that sounds more reasonable than killing companions.

Duh! Great idea! I should have thought of that.

That said, I do hate when he survives site 2. This could be done a 2nd time with a Coif, but leaving Gamling alive for 2-3 turns could REALLY hurt.

Why? Why not just keep him alive, if you can? How does it hurt to have him around? You could play Deagols and Celeborns over and over, getting everything you need, and then discarding them as powerups.

I disagree on that Gandalf's Hat is essential to the strategy, if I plan to double I can just get rid of conditions with Leaving Forever for a grand total of 0 twilight, and then do the full loop at the 2nd regroup. It is a nice addition when it is out, and often it makes my opponent misplay by going after Gandalf.

That's an interesting point. Based on my experiences playing you, it generally seemed like you had a tendency to generate a lot of twilight in that first regroup, but maybe you simply chose to do that.

I'm also not playing Ancient Blade in the later versions, because I didn't find it necessary at all for doing doubles: if I can get to skirmish without sustaining major damage in maneuver/archery I can usually kill the key minions, then get rid of conditions, move again, then loop, and if I do lose a companion (Gil-Galad) to maneuver/arhry tricks, I wouldn't double anyway in most cases. The primary use of my loop is cycling, I only have to do it once a turn, the rest is there because it costs very few card slots.

It occurs to me that archery should generally have very little effect on you. You could just put on the ring, take the archery as burdens, and then take the burdens off in Regroup.

If I'd purely want to improve my win ratio I'd play it with Mountain Troll. Imagine what that shadow can do with a grip of 8 cards of your choice + a completely stuffed discard pile after I do the loop.

Well, I can only speak for my own deck, but these days I feel more threatened by Nazgul than by Mountain Troll tricks.

However I do agree that the freeps can still be improved, I had very little experience playing elves compared to other cultures prior to this deck so I keep experimenting.

I think I may have found the answer to healing: Trust. If his text is accurate, Gil-galad, High King of the Noldor should be able to pull any skirmish event, not just Elf ones. Thanks to him and Aragorn, you have the potential to pull 4 of these every time you move, and heal 4 wounds each time. Then you just take the threats off in Regroup!

Namarie requires a hunter elf to use - I do have another version with hunters, but I'm hesitant to even try it.

So, put in an Elf Hunter! Are all of those current guys really that vital? What's so great about Glorfindel? Or even Arwen, for that matter?

I think you are giving my deck some extra credit because of the shadow side, not because of the freeps. Your fellowship is vulnerable to many of the "silver bullets" I'm playing, and my deck's base concept is to always find the right minion to hurt the opposing freeps side the most.

I actually have a question about that: How do you always find the right minion? Is it just your two copies of Sudden Strike you are relying on? I've heard you talk about how you can stack your hand with exactly the minion setup you want, but I'm still not sure I understand how you accomplish that. By the way, you also might consider the option of using On Your Doorstep to retrieve key Gollum cards (like Sudden Strike), as well as Not Easily Avoided to get key Smeagol cards (like Something Slimy).

Here's an idea I'm toying with...

Deck Out + Birthday Present + Dear Friends + On Your Doorstep + Elrond, Lord of Rivendell + Gollum + Evil-smelling Fens + Watcher/Tentacles/other "silver bullets" = swarm potential as well as the ability to recycle everything in your FP side
"I would have followed you, my brother... my captain... my king." - Boromir

December 17, 2013, 11:58:31 AM
Reply #16

ramolnar

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Re: High King loop/telepathy - Nazgul
« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2013, 11:58:31 AM »
Talking about companions and Gamling:

Namarie requires a hunter elf to use - I do have another version with hunters, but I'm hesitant to even try it.

So, put in an Elf Hunter! Are all of those current guys really that vital? What's so great about Glorfindel? Or even Arwen, for that matter?

Why? Why not just keep him alive, if you can? How does it hurt to have him around? You could play Deagols and Celeborns over and over, getting everything you need, and then discarding them as powerups.

Shotgun Enquea and Greed are dangerous for this deck. It wants to stay at five companions. Of the noncritical options, Gamling is generally least useful, compared to Arwen, Glorfindel, Smeagol and Aragorn. Arwen removes tokens to win skirmishes. Glorfindel removes threats during the skirmish phase and wins against Troll's Keyward on Warg. Both are more useful than Namarie.



If I'd purely want to improve my win ratio I'd play it with Mountain Troll. Imagine what that shadow can do with a grip of 8 cards of your choice + a completely stuffed discard pile after I do the loop.

Well, I can only speak for my own deck, but these days I feel more threatened by Nazgul than by Mountain Troll tricks.

That makes sense. Nazgul have multiple cards that hurt the Madril deck - Buckland Homestead, Nelya, Bill Ferny who blocks the first Ithilien Blade/What are They? , possession-removing Cantea, Enquea. All of those cards are generally playable, too, not bullets like Grima Chief Counselor.


I think I may have found the answer to healing: Trust. If his text is accurate, Gil-galad, High King of the Noldor should be able to pull any skirmish event, not just Elf ones. Thanks to him and Aragorn, you have the potential to pull 4 of these every time you move, and heal 4 wounds each time. Then you just take the threats off in Regroup!

Gil-galad has errata, according to the wiki. Elven skirmish events only.

December 17, 2013, 12:54:07 PM
Reply #17

Shelobplayer

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Re: High King loop/telepathy - Nazgul
« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2013, 12:54:07 PM »
The way I find the minions I want to is with my regroup loop, I just keep drawing/discarding cards until I have a grip that has the potential of doing damage. Sudden Strike, Morgul Squealer, Evil-Smelling Fens are just making the process faster. If you pay attention to my deck size in our longer games, you usually see my 106 cards draw deck run out of cards.

Gil-Galad can't recycle trust, and couldn't do it without the errata either (the original text has no restriction to skirmish events).

A Namarie version is easily doable, and I've seen working standard versions of that build on GCCG a couple of times (in standard it's pretty much where you have to go to with Gil-Galad imo), but I'm not sure how good that'd be for expanded. Basically I'd want to start with Smeagol + Faramir, CoI + a hunter elf (probably Elven Guardian), which would leave me without Gamling. It could have potential, but I think it'd be more gondor heavy with The Last Alliance of Elves and Men, and maybe a bit more focused on archery than skirmish, because I have trouble seeing how Gandalf would fit in to that one.

I'm still thinking that a Gandalf, BoO version is doable with SftF, and I'm gonna work on that one after my finals are over.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 12:56:27 PM by Shelobplayer »

December 17, 2013, 04:14:49 PM
Reply #18

sgtdraino

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Re: High King loop/telepathy - Nazgul
« Reply #18 on: December 17, 2013, 04:14:49 PM »
Shotgun Enquea and Greed are dangerous for this deck. It wants to stay at five companions.

Namarie can take care of Greed. Most of his guys have too much vitality to worry about shotgun Enquea, especially with Hosts of the Last Alliance to prevent wounds. If he included Nenya, Ring of Adamant, he'd have even more protection. All he really needs is better healing capability.

Gil-galad has errata, according to the wiki. Elven skirmish events only.

Ah, weird. Usually gemp has the updated text, while the wiki has the original text. In this case, it's the other way around: Gemp has the old text, the wiki has the updated.

Ah well, back to the drawing board!

The way I find the minions I want to is with my regroup loop, I just keep drawing/discarding cards until I have a grip that has the potential of doing damage. Sudden Strike, Morgul Squealer, Evil-Smelling Fens are just making the process faster. If you pay attention to my deck size in our longer games, you usually see my 106 cards draw deck run out of cards.

Ah. So there's not really that much cycling, beyond the Witch-king/ring shenanigans.

A Namarie version is easily doable, and I've seen working standard versions of that build on GCCG a couple of times (in standard it's pretty much where you have to go to with Gil-Galad imo), but I'm not sure how good that'd be for expanded. Basically I'd want to start with Smeagol + Faramir, CoI + a hunter elf (probably Elven Guardian), which would leave me without Gamling.

Not necessary. You can start an Elf Hunter with Gamling, use Prancing Pony to pull Ranger/Hunter Aragorn, and then use East Wall of Rohan to pull another Elf Hunter. This shouldn't be too tough with Follow Smeagol. That would give you another 3 token condition, with condition discard in maneuver.

ETA: Okay, what about multiple copies of Farewell to Lorien for healing? Another idea I had was Uruviel, Woodland Maid, with Voice of Nimrodel to cancel skirmishes. Gil-galad can cycle VoN, and you even get to take burdens off when you play it, since it's a tale. Just cancel all the hard skirmishes, and then discard all the minions in regroup with Ancient Blade. And since you can take off all threats every regroup, I'd also be inclined to add Aragorn's Bow, Ranger's Longbow.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 04:44:17 PM by sgtdraino »
"I would have followed you, my brother... my captain... my king." - Boromir

December 18, 2013, 05:45:22 AM
Reply #19

Shelobplayer

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Re: High King loop/telepathy - Nazgul
« Reply #19 on: December 18, 2013, 05:45:22 AM »
Ah. So there's not really that much cycling, beyond the Witch-king/ring shenanigans.

I can draw any number of cards in my fellowship's regroup, I fail to see how that is "not much cycling", when I pass in regroup, I usually do it with 8 shadow cards in hand, but should I need one specific card from my deck, I can just keep reusing Leaving Forever or Gladden Homestead until I get it. Sudden Strike, Morgul Squealer and the recycling cards are mainly there so I won't have to spend THAT much time in regroup and to avoid the risk of decking myself too early, and so I can keep reusing cards like shotgun Enquea, Southron Leader or Chief Counselor.

I've seen others using Voice of Nimrodel, and I never really understood why. In skirmish I can usually win or even overwhelm about anything, protect my companions from tricky minions with Crashing Cavalry or just simply kill with Smeagol. The deck is already very tall and I wouldn't want to increase it's size for something that won't make a real difference, or help my overall cycling potential.

Farewll to Lorien is a great card, but I think it is good for fellowships that want to keep the overall company healthy. I don't care if anyone dies as long as Gil-Galad lives, and I have no way of cycling it, the relevant part in most cases would be 3: heal G-G if he has res 5 or more, not great imo.

Asfaloth, Swift Blossom is one decent way to heal the boss, Nenya, Ring of Adamant would be okay, but again, I don't want to further increase the deck's size, and as a one of, I prefer the original version by far (it'd also lower my cycling potential).
« Last Edit: December 18, 2013, 05:48:04 AM by Shelobplayer »

December 18, 2013, 07:48:28 AM
Reply #20

sgtdraino

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Re: High King loop/telepathy - Nazgul
« Reply #20 on: December 18, 2013, 07:48:28 AM »
I can draw any number of cards in my fellowship's regroup, I fail to see how that is "not much cycling",

My apologies, I meant recycling.

I've seen others using Voice of Nimrodel, and I never really understood why. In skirmish I can usually win or even overwhelm about anything, protect my companions from tricky minions with Crashing Cavalry or just simply kill with Smeagol. The deck is already very tall and I wouldn't want to increase it's size for something that won't make a real difference, or help my overall cycling potential.

Your ability to overwhelm is mostly due to Forearmed, which is mainly helped by Gandalf, Manager of Wizards. I was trying to find a way for the deck to be effective with Gandalf, Wise Guide instead, so that you are better protected against a number of different strategies that you are presently weak against. My thinking was that the deck could possibly be even more effective if you simply eliminate the Forearmed and elven telepathy strategies, and replace them with the ability to cancel skirmishes, remove burdens, and then discard the minions in Regroup with Ancient Blade.

Farewll to Lorien is a great card, but I think it is good for fellowships that want to keep the overall company healthy. I don't care if anyone dies as long as Gil-Galad lives, and I have no way of cycling it, the relevant part in most cases would be 3: heal G-G if he has res 5 or more, not great imo.

Right, I realize that. I'm proposing a version where you don't want Gamling dead, where instead you keep everyone alive. With your ability to remove burdens in Regroup, you can heal everyone every Fellowship phase. It can be recycled with On Your Doorstep. If one of your current weaknesses is lack of healing power, Farewell to Lorien may be the answer.

Asfaloth, Swift Blossom is one decent way to heal the boss, Nenya, Ring of Adamant would be okay, but again, I don't want to further increase the deck's size, and as a one off, I prefer the original version by far (it'd also lower my cycling potential).

Don't you have unlimited cycling potential in regroup, though? I'm not seeing what good an extra 2 cards will do, when you can already draw as many as you want. Is it just cycling you need prior to setting up the loop?
"I would have followed you, my brother... my captain... my king." - Boromir

December 20, 2013, 07:26:34 AM
Reply #21

Shelobplayer

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Re: High King loop/telepathy - Nazgul
« Reply #21 on: December 20, 2013, 07:26:34 AM »
So I was thinking about that hunter version with Namaries... it'd indeed have a great advantage: an almost unkillable Faramir, CoI and Gil-Galad duo. I just had this game on gemp when I realized that Elven Guardians can technically heal Gil-Galad if they heal Faramir first (and obviously I'd also get Steward's Legacy, meaning that no minion could ever pass the maneuver phase with it's special abilities working, if I have Faramir and an Elven Guardian heal each other a few times). It'd also mean that Farewell to Lorien can technically heal Gil-Galad multiple times via Faramir/Guardians as long as I have no burdens. The main fighters could be Aragorn and Faramir with The Last Alliance of Elves and Men, but at that point the deck would still need some extra power in the form of skirmish tricks, archery or Madril + IBs. Ofc I'd still use the Smeagol package. I'm not sure if it'd be able to be as consistent as the current version though.

I'll work out a list soon.

December 20, 2013, 08:44:59 AM
Reply #22

sgtdraino

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Re: High King loop/telepathy - Nazgul
« Reply #22 on: December 20, 2013, 08:44:59 AM »
Nice! I like it!

I'd put in Gandalf Wise Guide with the original Gandalf's Staff for more skirmish canceling potential, and I'd still go with Voice of Nimrodel, which works well in conjunction with taking off burdens. Ancient Blade kill 'em in Regroup. Wise Guide will help keep your Smeagol package working.
"I would have followed you, my brother... my captain... my king." - Boromir

January 23, 2014, 06:11:01 PM
Reply #23

Shelobplayer

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Re: High King loop/telepathy - Nazgul
« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2014, 06:11:01 PM »
Quick update:
I'm running a list with Brego and 2 Celebrings for a while, and I'm not sure if they worth the slots. The deck can do well without it's conditions in case if I have no access to Blessed Light, #$&*@! I can even survive without Gil-Galad for a good while giving my shadow time to kill. I'm thinking about cutting them along with another few cards to give more space to Gandalf goodstuff, and maybe some Lothlorien Guides, since sometimes regroup is too late to discard conditions.

Current record with a list very similar to the one in the opening post is 17-3, 7 shadow wins, 1 freeps win and 9 concession (most because of preassure from shadow side, people should play more Dark Horseman protection, I'm getting way too many free wins with him vs elves and dwarves).

Here is my current list:
Ring-bearer: Galadriel, Bearer of Wisdom
Ring: The One Ring, The Binding Ring

Adventure deck:
Woody-End
Buckland Homestead
Cavern Entrance
Caras Galadhon
Mithlond
Dammed Gate-stream
Old Forest Road
The Prancing Pony
Sirannon Ruins

Free Peoples Draw Deck:
1x Arwen, She-Elf
4x Gil-galad, High King of the Noldor
1x Glorfindel, Eldarin Lord
1x Gandalf, Manager of Wizards
1x Radagast, The Brown
1x Smeagol, Always Helps
1x Aragorn, Heir to the Throne of Gondor
1x Aragorn, Thorongil
1x Gamling, Defender of the Hornburg
1x Elrond, Lord of Rivendell
2x Elven Armaments
1x Gwemegil
1x Gandalf's Hat
1x Brego
1x Erkenbrand's Horn
1x Aiglos
1x Galadriel's Silver Ewer
1x Gift of the Evenstar, Blessed Light
1x Nenya
1x Vilya, Ring of Air
4x Alliance Reforged
4x Forearmed
2x A Wizard Is Never Late
4x Something Slimy
1x Agility
1x Crashing Cavalry
1x Glimpse of Fate
2x Hosts of the Last Alliance
1x Into the West
1x Leaving Forever
1x Secluded Homestead
1x Songs of the Blessed Realm
1x Uncertain Future
1x Don't Look at Them
1x Follow Smeagol
2x Celebring, Elven-smith
1x Woodhall Elf, Exile
1x Deagol, Fateful Finder

Shadow Draw Deck:
1x Gollum, Old Villain
1x Shelob, Her Ladyship
1x Grima, Chief Counselor
1x Southron Leader
1x Bill Ferny, Swarthy Sneering Fellow
3x Morgul Squealer
3x The Witch-king, Morgul King
1x Úlairë Cantëa, Black Assassin
2x Úlairë Cantëa, Faster Than Winds
2x Úlairë Enquëa, Lieutenant of Morgul
1x Úlairë Enquëa, Sixth of the Nine Riders
3x Úlairë Lemenya, Eternally Threatening
3x Úlairë Nelya, Third of the Nine Riders
4x Úlairë Nertëa, Dark Horseman
1x Web
1x Ships of Great Draught
2x Nazgul Sword
4x Winged Mount
3x Ring of Terror
4x Captured by the Ring
2x Sudden Strike
1x All Life Flees
2x Evil-smelling Fens
2x Final Strike
2x They Feel the Precious
3x Saruman, Servant of Sauron
« Last Edit: January 23, 2014, 06:12:47 PM by Shelobplayer »

January 24, 2014, 06:25:35 AM
Reply #24

johnthespud

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Re: High King loop/telepathy - Nazgul
« Reply #24 on: January 24, 2014, 06:25:35 AM »
can i ask why the heck does anyone play bill ferny like  whats the point

January 24, 2014, 10:47:05 AM
Reply #25

sgtdraino

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Re: High King loop/telepathy - Nazgul
« Reply #25 on: January 24, 2014, 10:47:05 AM »
Quick update:
I'm running a list with Brego and 2 Celebrings for a while, and I'm not sure if they worth the slots. The deck can do well without it's conditions in case if I have no access to Blessed Light, #$&*@! I can even survive without Gil-Galad for a good while giving my shadow time to kill. I'm thinking about cutting them along with another few cards to give more space to Gandalf goodstuff, and maybe some Lothlorien Guides, since sometimes regroup is too late to discard conditions.

Dark came up with a really good variation on this deck that is not reliant on Gil-galad; He paired it with Besiegers, controls some sites, uses the brothers, and then is able to constantly cycle Fleet-footed and Still Needed with or without Gil-galad, to basically murder anything you throw at him, thanks to Woodhall Elf, Exile. I told him about your loop stuff, and he's incorporated that in there to make his deck even better.

can i ask why the heck does anyone play bill ferny like  whats the point


Bill Ferny is a good early game counter to Madril decks. He's also excellent to use against decks which use alternate Ring-bearers (like Gimli, Isildur, etc.), because (like Dark Horseman) you can play him over and over with Morgul Squealer to force an assignment to that Ring-bearer, and trigger some burdens or threats or wounds.
"I would have followed you, my brother... my captain... my king." - Boromir

January 24, 2014, 05:26:57 PM
Reply #26

Shelobplayer

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Re: High King loop/telepathy - Nazgul
« Reply #26 on: January 24, 2014, 05:26:57 PM »
Dark came up with a really good variation on this deck that is not reliant on Gil-galad; He paired it with Besiegers, controls some sites, uses the brothers, and then is able to constantly cycle Fleet-footed and Still Needed with or without Gil-galad, to basically murder anything you throw at him, thanks to Woodhall Elf, Exile. I told him about your loop stuff, and he's incorporated that in there to make his deck even better.

I haven't seen a besieger shadow standing up against top tier expanded decks, but I yet have to see his version. I highly prefer Gamling + Arwen over the elven brothers. When I started working on this list, I started with the elven brothers as well, that list now has a 60% win ratio in about 30 games, the version with Gamling + Arwen is on 85% atm, I'm convinced that for what I want to do, this setup is better. I really hated drawing Still Needed instead of shadow cards...

July 01, 2016, 07:52:57 AM
Reply #27

ilazul

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Re: High King loop/telepathy - Nazgul
« Reply #27 on: July 01, 2016, 07:52:57 AM »
I've been trying this deck out for a multiplayer group and really just want to put in a bit more healing and protection against shadow effects (mostly just shotgun).

I'm not super familiar with the cardpool as I'm fairly new to the game. Any suggestions?

July 03, 2016, 03:10:34 AM
Reply #28

Dictionary

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Re: High King loop/telepathy - Nazgul
« Reply #28 on: July 03, 2016, 03:10:34 AM »
More Hosts of the Last Alliance or Nenya, Ring of Adamant seem to be the best anti-Enquea options. Other [Elven] healing options include Shadow Between and Elrond (Venerable Lord or Herald to Gil-Galad)
Visit LOTR TCG wiki for strategy articles and extra card details, contributed by various community members. All set 1 cards finished.

May 19, 2019, 11:02:19 AM
Reply #29

ilazul

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Re: High King loop/telepathy - Nazgul
« Reply #29 on: May 19, 2019, 11:02:19 AM »
I don't think shelobplayer (or anyone) really posts here much anymore, but I've started up with a group again after a year hiatus and have put a bunch more time into Gil-Galad.

I tried a fellowship that started Galadriel, Bearer of Wisdom ,  Gandalf, Leader of Men , Ordulus, Young Warrior , Lorien Elf, and sometimes a Smeagol. Goal is to grab Saved From the Fire asap and nuke the elves to get Gil-Galad, Woodhall Elf, and the artifacts. It starts faster for sure, but the slots that the non-elf cards take up ended up removing a lot of late game power.

It also gives off a lot of twilight in the mid game as the goal is to SFTF gandalf and both starting elves. If you don't grab SFTF you're just out of the game as the starting fellowship can't skirmish well. This ended up taking more slots with Long-Stemmed Pipe and some Barliman Butterbur: PPP. Again, more non-elf cards.

So I went back to a starting fellowship of Bearer of Wisdom with the Binding Ring, Glorfindel, Revealed in Wrath , Gamling, Defender of the Hornburg , and have been trying Smeagol, Slinker.

Binding ring to pull Nenya after Gamling grabs Woodhall Elf gives you a massive amount of card cycling every turn. Draws Gil-Galad and other cards without issue, and dumps conditions in the grave to replay in regroup. I've also found that sometimes I have too many skirmish events from GG, and Nenya helps dump them. Slinker is nuts in a deck that can peel off burdens every turn. I'm also now 100% sold on playing two Celebring, ditching the first to horn and grabbing a coif turn 2.

It seems like no matter how I build it, I really can't go over 5 companions. GG decks just don't have the control over the maneuver phases that Madril or Powerful Guide do. I also tend to never go above 3 FP cultures for the same reason, so no Aragorn or Gandalfs.

Awesome deck all around though. I find I get most of my wins from the shadow side due to all the draw / cycling power.