Replacing sites

[BigRedMF]

I am just about to play my first post-movie game ever in a WotR league, and observed a couple games to get my bearings. With the rampant site replacement, I noticed something that left me confused. The fellowship was at Harrowdale and the Shadow used Ulaire Nelya to replace the current site. However, the effects of Harrowdale were still applied- each minion skirmishing a Rohan companion lost Fierce. Seeing as how there were no minions skirmishing when the site was replaced, I chalked this up to not knowing the rules. However I can't find anything in the rules that states site text stays in effect after being replaced.  Maybe there is no such rule and my interpretation of the site game text is wrong? I don't think the site was intended to have effects when removed from play, maybe it is a Gemp issue?

[Legion]

The site says "Until the regroup phase" something happens.  The card does not have to remain active (just as say Advance Scout keeps the effect even if it gets discarded) for its text to still apply.

[BigRedMF]

Yes based on the wording I can see how the effect lasts until the Regroup phase. However I disagree that this is actually what the designers intended (not that I have any insight, just my personal opinion). I interpret the site text as "Each minion skirmishing a Rohan companion loses Fierce until the Regroup phase and cannot gain Fierce until the Regroup phase." I think in effort to save space on the site's game text, Decipher lumped both "until the Regroup phase" terms so they only had to say it once, and by doing so have now totally changed the usefulness of the site. If I was playing the game with real cards with friends I would never have thought that the site game text would apply even if it was replaced, but that is from my interpretation of the site text. Again, my personal opinion, but why should a site's game text apply when the site is not on the table? There are specific rules around modifying the move limit, but nothing I could find about site game text that would lead me to believe site text should apply after replacing them.

On your comparison I disagree that Advance Scout is the same - he says to discard him to cause other Sauron minions to be roaming, just like a Dagger Strike event makes a character Str+2 even though it is discarded once used. The sites should function like conditions, not cause-and-effect events or abilities.

[TelTura]

I agree with your interpretation.  Advance Scout has an action with a discrete cost and effect that, once put into effect is not linked to whether or not the originating card is still in play.

Harrowdale on the other hand has an effect that appears to be intended to be linked to itself being in play; it's like a condition in that it must be in play for its game text to have effect. 

At the same time, if we are only to take cards at face value according to what the text says (as we no longer have any ruling body that can enact errata) and not taking intent into account, the current use within Gemp seems to be accurate. 

[Legion]

Ah, but what if you exert for the Advance Scout and it gets killed in archery?  It's no longer in play, but it still gets its effect.  How is the site any different?  Or if your Glimpse of Fate is discarded after taking effect (that is a condition without a special ability you were asking for).

[bibfortuna25]

Any effect which lasts until a particular time will continue to take effect even if the source card is no longer in play. That's why Harrowdale will continue to work even after it is replaced.

[TelTura]

Advance Scout has a special ability that is manually activated, and isn't even comparable in this situation as has been pointed out. Glimpse of Fate is more comparable, but it too has a triggered action that has an explicit trigger (noted by the use of one of the phrases "When", "Each Time", or "While") activated by losing initiative, and so it's more similar to Advance Scout than it is to Harrowdale.  In both of these cases, the card has an action with an effect that continues to live on if and when the card has left play, until the action's text says so.

Harrowdale is different: it has no explicit action associated with its "until the regroup phase" game text.  I searched for a card that is like it and found nothing. I even wrote a script that pulled up every single card that had the phrase "until the regroup" in it, and there wasn't a single card in the entire game that's worded like Harrowdale is. (I can provide the list if anyone's interested). 

To reiterate: every single card that has an effect that lasts until the regroup phase (usually giving/preventing fierce, defender+1, or strength bonuses) is either the effect of a special ability (i.e. a bold phase action such as Skirmish:.) or an automatic triggered action (i.e. has the phrase "When", "Each Time", or "While"), except Harrowdale.

In addition, I can't think of any card that produces an action trigger that lives on longer than the card itself does (this is not the same as an effect outliving a card; this happens constantly as is entirely the basis of Events). 

All this supports the argument that it was meant to be worded "Each minion skirmishing a companion loses fierce and cannot gain fierce until the regroup phase.", but was not due to oversight. 

All that being said, I do think that the current operating behavior in gemp is technically accurate, but this is as established a unique case that is ripe for errata.

[TelTura]

Any effect which lasts until a particular time will continue to take effect even if the source card is no longer in play.

That's what makes this a unique situation; an effect isn't lasting longer than the host card, an action trigger is.

[Legion]

How about Mount Doom?  Once that site's text is activated, it sticks, even if the card is no longer active.  That's exactly why the site needs the wording "Until the end of the game."

"All that being said, I do think that the current operating behavior in gemp is technically accurate, but this is as established a unique case that is ripe for errata."

Technically correct is the best kind of correct!  You have no idea what Decipher was thinking when they made that card.  Because if they were actually thinking at all by that stage, they would never have made Namarie when FNF was on the X-List.  That was said in jest, but sadly there might be a shred of truth there.

[BigRedMF]

I agree that Gemp is implementing the site correctly according to the way the text reads. I still think that maybe that wasn't the way it was intended to work, and I'm glad to see I'm not the only one! Thanks for the discussion.

If I ever play with Harrowdale in real life though, I will ignore the text if it is not in play.

[Not a Zombie]

How about Mount Doom?  Once that site's text is activated, it sticks, even if the card is no longer active.  That's exactly why the site needs the wording "Until the end of the game."

"All that being said, I do think that the current operating behavior in gemp is technically accurate, but this is as established a unique case that is ripe for errata."

Technically correct is the best kind of correct!  You have no idea what Decipher was thinking when they made that card.  Because if they were actually thinking at all by that stage, they would never have made Namarie when FNF was on the X-List.  That was said in jest, but sadly there might be a shred of truth there.

The difference here is that Mount Doom is always in play. There is no way to get rid of mount doom. It has "till the end of the game" not so that if it leaves play the text is still active, but so that when the fellowship is no longer at that site the text remains active (normally sites texts are inactive if the fellowship is not at that site.) Since there is no way to remove mount doom from the site path, it would not make sense for "until the end of the game" to mean that if it was somehow removed from the game its text would still be active.

[bibfortuna25]

You can remove Mount Doom from the site path if no fellowship has been at that site yet. The site's text only becomes active when a player reaches that site. So if Ulaire Toldea, Eighth of the Nine Riders uses his text to play Mount Doom as the next site, the FP could play Pathfinder in the regroup phase to replace Mount Doom with something else.

[BigRedMF]

The difference with Mount Doom is that you could move "Until the end of the game" to the end of the game text and it would still function exactly the same. The intention with this card is obvious regardless of how it is stated.

I just think Decipher unintentionally screwed up Harrowdale with the way it was phrased. I just played my 4th game of WotR and noticed also that Harrowdale still functions when the fellowship moves to the NEXT site (again, because they started at Harrowdale and it says "Until the regroup phase"). If the fellowship had moved from Harrowdale during the regroup phase, this text would not have been active during the skirmishes that followed. I am now even more convinced that this is NOT what was intended - are there any other sites that function beyond themselves? (Obviously Mount Doom is a special case, which is probably why it is rare)