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Author Topic: Alternate Card Images on Gemp: What are they and how do you get them?  (Read 6156 times)

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March 24, 2015, 03:29:20 PM
Reply #15

dmaz

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Re: Alternate Card Images on Gemp: What are they and how do you get them?
« Reply #15 on: March 24, 2015, 03:29:20 PM »
Ok,

This intrigued me a little bit so I tried to draw up a table that would allow us to interpret this data to some extent.

Since I don't have the actual coding that MarcinS used to refer to, I needed to make some assumptions which are based on what we know about the physical cards, as well as what we know about the limitations of the digital cards. For example, we know the odds of pulling a foil are 1:6 for the physical booster packs, so we can assume that MarcinS did the same. While these assumptions are presumably correct, there have been many anomalies experienced in opening booster packs on LOTR GEMP, which resulted in an unreasonable amount of duplicate rares in a relatively small pool of packs. As of yet such anomalies are unexplained, but will be temporarily ignored, for the purposes of interpreting this information.

Assumptions:
1. The odds of pulling any given rare from a booster pack of a certain set is 1/n, where n = the total number of rares in that set (usually 60)
2. When opening any number of packs of the same set consecutively, unlike the physcial cards, the odds of pulling any given rare are unaffected by any rares pulled previously, and remains 1/n.


Theories to Test:
1. Because Masterworks cards are essentially an alternate image replacement of their respective rares, there is no additional coding added by MarcinS to govern a differentiation between Masterworks rares and their respective "normal" rares. Thus n simply becomes n + M, where M = the number of Masterworks cards included in that set, and the odds of pulling any given Masterworks card is 1/(n+M)
2. MarcinS did, in fact, include a seperate set of rules in the coding to govern Masterworks cards. It is unknown what this coding is, or what odds it represents, but could be assumed to be similar to the rules governing foil cards. i.e. There is some seperate set of odds that need to be run to decide whether or not a booster pack will contain a Masterworks card.

Regarding Foils:
The odds surrounding foils is a completely different topic that I will also evaluate, but seperately. It may be that the odds in GEMP of pulling a R/U/C foil are each weighted by their respective representation on the proverbial "sheet" they are cut from (in this case their appearance in the booster pack, 1:3:7. Conversely, it is possible that there is no weighting in the appearance of foils in GEMP booster packs, such that the odds of pulling any given foil are 1/6 * 1/n, where n = the total number of cards in the set.

Although I do believe evaluating the odds surrounding foils will be beneficial to our ultimate conclusions regarding AI cards (I actually pulled a Masterworks foil), I left out information on the foils in this data set.

I opened a total of 300 packs, 100 from each of sets 12, 13, and 15.

Set 12:
Masterworks pulled:
Faramir's Sword - 12O2
Faramir, DoG - 12O3
Gandalf, TWR - 12O1
The Witch King, Black Lord - 12O9
Total Pulled: 4
Non-Masterworks pulled: 96

The easiest test to run, however raw, is to see the ratio between the odds of pulling any given rare, when including Masterworks in n, and the total number pulled vs 100 packs opened.
Odds of pulling Masterworks: 4%
Odds of pulling any given rare from set 12, inc Masterworks: 1.5%
Though not sufficient for a conclusion, the number of Masterworks actually pulled reflects a greater percentage than the percent odds of pulling any 1 Masterworks from the set, assuming that they are part of n total number of rares.

We can expand on the information about the rares that were pulled.
Total rares pulled: 96
Rares appearing 1 time: 24
Rares appearing more than 1 time: 23
Rares that did not appear:  10

Now, if we added those Masterworks cards that were both pulled and not pulled to this information, our subsequent statistical data wouldn't differ too much, so instead, for purposes of potential Theory 2, lets evaluate both the rares pulled and Masterworks pulled as separate groups, and compare their statistical data after each being individually evaluated.

For each of the three scenarios, I assigned associating numbers that are each 1 unit apart from the other associating scenario. For the mean, positive, indicating an inclination towards pulling more than 1, negative indicating an inclination towards pulling none, and zero indicating all scenarios are equally likely (which we can see already isn't the case).

General Rares:
Mean: 0.228 (indicates a likelihood of pulling more than one of any given rare over not pulling that rare at all).
Standard Deviation: 0.732 (indicating the unitary allowance of any card pulled once to have been instead pulled more than once or not at all).

Masterworks:
Mean: -0.5 (indicates a likelihood of not pulling any given Masterworks at all over pulling more than one of that Masterworks)
Standard Deviation: 1.10 (basically saying, as 1 unit indicates a change of scenario, that any Masterworks pulled once, is just as likely to have been pulled more than once or not at all).

What we can draw from this is two distinct differences between General Rares and Masterworks cards.
1. For any given card evaluated out of a number of boosters opened, you are more likely to pull none if it is a Masterworks and more likely to pull more than one if it is a general rare.
2. For any given card evaluated that was pulled once out of a number of boosters opened, it is 50% more likely that it could have either been pulled more than once or not at all if it was a Masterworks than if it was a general rare.

Ok, they seem to function pretty differently as of now...since this is already getting ridiculously long, I'll take a break for a bit, and then crunch the numbers of the other 200 to get a total and see how we rank overall.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2015, 12:21:41 PM by dmaz »

March 25, 2015, 12:21:25 PM
Reply #16

dmaz

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Re: Alternate Card Images on Gemp: What are they and how do you get them?
« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2015, 12:21:25 PM »
Moving right along, here's my info for the other two sets.

Set 13:
Masterworks pulled:
Celeborn, TW - 13O1
Legolas, OTGC - 13O3
Gandalf, BOO - 13O4
Denethor, LRS - 12O7
Total Pulled: 4
Non-Masterworks pulled: 96

Set 15:
Masterworks pulled:
Gandalf, PG - 15O2
Quickbeam, HOAE - 15O3
Madril, DOO - 15O5  x2
Eomer, Horsemaster - 15O6
Ulaire Attea, DOP - 15O7  x2
Ulaire Nelya, FR - 15O9
Total Pulled: 8 (This doesn't include the foil 15O7 I also pulled, since I will evaluate foils separately.
Non-Masterworks pulled: 92

Now the data set for the correspondin regular rares pulled.

Set 13:
Total rares pulled: 96
Rares appearing 1 time: 22
Rares appearing more than 1 time: 26
Rares that did not appear:  12

Set 15:
Total rares pulled: 92
Rares appearing 1 time: 20
Rares appearing more than 1 time: 25
Rares that did not appear:  13

Since we already have the comparative statistical data for set 12 between Masterworks and regular rares, we can see right off the bat that set 13 will stay fairly consistent, while set 15 looks like the distribution for each might be more even. Thus, taking the data set as a whole (all 300 packs) gives us this:

General Rares:
Mean: 0.223
Standard Deviation: 0.759

Masterworks:
Mean: -0.407
Standard Deviation: 0.636

We can see that, for general rares, the mean an standard deviation did not change dramatically at all. This is due to the fact that they are being evaluated from a pool of nearly 300 cards pulled.
The mean for Masterworks is still negative, indicating an tendency towards any given Masterworks not being pulled over being pulled once. At face value, we could say that Mastworks indeed function differently than general rares, and therefore there are separate odds governing the chance of pulling a Masterworks rather than any other regular rare.

However, after evaluating the statistics of general Elf-culture rares, I found that, when taken out from the other general rares and mined for data separately, they have statistical information similar to the Masterworks cards that were taken separately. It should also be noted that when more Masterworks cards were added for evaluation, the resulting compiled data displayed a change of 20% in Mean and a change of 42% in Standard Deviation. Finally, remember that because the Masterworks were being evaluated seperately, more data would be needed to increase the overall pool, for it to match up to general rares, in this specific series of tests. I do however have enough information to make a reasonably confident conclusion though.

Conclusion:
Ok, what to make of all of this?
Despite the aparent differences between general rares and Masterworks cards, I believe that theory 1 is more justifiable. Simply note that when the pool of data for evaluation was tripled, the means for both Masterworks and general rares, each began to approach zero from their respective points in the previous evaluation, with general rares approaching at a much slower rate due to the already large pool data it had. Should more data be added, I believe that both would continue to approach zero. If enough data should be supplied for both to reach near-zero, this would aptly support theory 1 over theory 2.
I believe that the odds of pulling any given Masterworks card represent the same odds as any other rare from the given set, thus the odds of pulling any named Masterworks card from, let's say, set 15 is 1/n+M = 1/59+9 = 1/68 = 1.47%.

I kind of went too far with the data analysis, so maybe I won't dive this deep into the possible rules for foils, but basically, from what I've found so far, the appearance of a foil is just another fractional value to be multipled with the odds of pulling that card as a non-foil.


« Last Edit: March 25, 2015, 12:24:32 PM by dmaz »

March 27, 2015, 05:22:07 AM
Reply #17

sgtdraino

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Re: Alternate Card Images on Gemp: What are they and how do you get them?
« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2015, 05:22:07 AM »
Impressive, dmaz. Impressive to the point that it's a bit over my head. :)

So, to boil this all down to something I can grasp, if I'm trying to get a certain specific Masterworks card from a certain specific set (Hunters), on average, how many packs from that set would I have to open, in order to reasonably guarantee that I would probably get it?
"I would have followed you, my brother... my captain... my king." - Boromir

March 27, 2015, 06:30:35 AM
Reply #18

Merrick_H

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Re: Alternate Card Images on Gemp: What are they and how do you get them?
« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2015, 06:30:35 AM »
Here is the code that is used to generate the packs:
https://code.google.com/p/gemp-lotr/source/browse/trunk/gemp-lotr/gemp-lotr-server/src/main/java/com/gempukku/lotro/packs/RarityPackBox.java?r=5998

The server creates a list of the appropriate cards for the slot and then chooses the correct amount  depending on the cards rarity.

In the case of rares, it creates a list containing 3x all of the rares and then 1x of the "A" rarity cards (alternate images) and chooses the one card from the rare slot from there.  In the case of set 12, you have a 9/189 chance (1:21) of getting an AI card.

Here are the rarity tables that are used to determine what cards get loaded into the pack:
https://code.google.com/p/gemp-lotr/source/browse/?r=5998#svn%2Ftrunk%2Fgemp-lotr%2Fgemp-lotr-cards%2Fsrc%2Fmain%2Fresources

Foils are a completely different story as you have a 1:6 chance of getting a foil.
If you get a foil in your common slot, it has a
1:11 chance of being rare, premium or AI
3:11 chance of being uncommon or Starter
7:11 of being common

All of this is performed by the random.nextInt() function of Java.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2015, 11:41:29 AM by Merrick_H »

March 27, 2015, 07:55:14 AM
Reply #19

sgtdraino

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Re: Alternate Card Images on Gemp: What are they and how do you get them?
« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2015, 07:55:14 AM »
In the case of rares, it creates a list containing 3x all of the rares and then 1x of the "A" rarity cards (alternate images) and chooses the one card from the rare slot from there.  In the case of set 12, you have a 9/189 chance (1:81) of getting an AI card.

In other words (if I'm following) you should get a Masterworks 4.8% of the time, or roughly 4 to 5 times out of every 100 packs. This seems mostly supported by what dmaz got, 4 Masterworks out of the first 100, 4 Masterworks out of the second 100, and then 8 Masterworks out of the third 100, for an overall average rate of 5.33%, only .5% higher than the norm. That's also supported by the 10 Masterworks I got out of 200 total packs, again overall average of 5%, pretty close to 4.8%.

ETA: Of course, then there's the issue of distribution. Of the 10 Masterworks I got from 200 packs of set 15, 5 of them (50%) were duplicates. Of the 8 Masterworks dmaz pulled from 100 packs of set 15, 2 of them (25%) were duplicates. That averages to something like a 37% chance of getting a duplicate for set 15. Of course, the closer you get to a complete set, the higher the chances become of getting a duplicate.

So, I'm thinking that, at a minimum, if someone is trying to get a complete set of Masterworks (at least for set 15), they can probably anticipate having to open at least 300 packs to do it.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2015, 08:05:12 AM by sgtdraino »
"I would have followed you, my brother... my captain... my king." - Boromir

March 27, 2015, 10:54:04 PM
Reply #20

dmaz

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Re: Alternate Card Images on Gemp: What are they and how do you get them?
« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2015, 10:54:04 PM »
Thanks Merrick!

It's close to what I had gathered, in that he didn't create a separate process for calculating chances for them, but I was off on the correct balance.

I'd say you estimations are about right sgtdraino...it looks like 300 packs should guarantee the full set of AIs, though there's always that random chance it won't...though in some cases it might only take 100 or 200...

March 28, 2015, 03:11:18 PM
Reply #21

sgtdraino

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Re: Alternate Card Images on Gemp: What are they and how do you get them?
« Reply #21 on: March 28, 2015, 03:11:18 PM »
Does anyone know at what point the contents of a pack are chosen by the randomizer? Is it the moment you buy the pack, or the moment you open the pack? I'm assuming the moment you open it. I've also been trying to figure out if the distribution is improved or worsened by opening packs quickly versus slowly. Any thoughts?
"I would have followed you, my brother... my captain... my king." - Boromir

March 28, 2015, 04:50:36 PM
Reply #22

Merrick_H

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Re: Alternate Card Images on Gemp: What are they and how do you get them?
« Reply #22 on: March 28, 2015, 04:50:36 PM »
When you open the pack.

https://www.random.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Random_seed

Some decent reads there, which also explains some of the deck randomization issues that people may notice.

March 30, 2015, 11:06:25 AM
Reply #23

Ringbearer

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Re: Alternate Card Images on Gemp: What are they and how do you get them?
« Reply #23 on: March 30, 2015, 11:06:25 AM »
For the record I opened 50 packs and got 2 masterworks. Eomer and Thorondil.

March 30, 2015, 01:56:12 PM
Reply #24

sgtdraino

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Re: Alternate Card Images on Gemp: What are they and how do you get them?
« Reply #24 on: March 30, 2015, 01:56:12 PM »
That's about right. Since you should get between 4 and 5 per 100 packs, getting 2 or 3 in 50 is about right.
"I would have followed you, my brother... my captain... my king." - Boromir

April 03, 2015, 12:59:57 AM
Reply #25

Eukalyptus

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Re: Alternate Card Images on Gemp: What are they and how do you get them?
« Reply #25 on: April 03, 2015, 12:59:57 AM »
I took 10 pack choices and went for Hunters, hoping for 15O4 Aragorn, Thorongil. Didn't work, but pulled 15O7 Ulaire Attea, Desirous of Power.

April 03, 2015, 05:10:24 AM
Reply #26

sgtdraino

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Re: Alternate Card Images on Gemp: What are they and how do you get them?
« Reply #26 on: April 03, 2015, 05:10:24 AM »
Just opening 10 packs, you were probably lucky to get any Masterworks at all, assuming the stats from above are correct.
"I would have followed you, my brother... my captain... my king." - Boromir

April 03, 2015, 06:09:41 AM
Reply #27

Eukalyptus

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Re: Alternate Card Images on Gemp: What are they and how do you get them?
« Reply #27 on: April 03, 2015, 06:09:41 AM »
I know. Would have been a real surprise if 15O4 had indeed showed up.

August 10, 2015, 01:49:19 PM
Reply #28

sgtdraino

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Re: Alternate Card Images on Gemp: What are they and how do you get them?
« Reply #28 on: August 10, 2015, 01:49:19 PM »
Just FYI, I implemented my plan to accumulate 300 Hunters packs in order to finally guarantee pulling Masterworks Madril. Got him after opening 95 packs! I wish I could record some additional statistics for these pulls, but my "real" computer is still broken, so it would be too much of a PITA.
"I would have followed you, my brother... my captain... my king." - Boromir

August 10, 2015, 01:56:46 PM
Reply #29

Eukalyptus

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Re: Alternate Card Images on Gemp: What are they and how do you get them?
« Reply #29 on: August 10, 2015, 01:56:46 PM »
Gl on pulling a Throne and Aragorn as well!

Statistics for gemp are meaningless. You can have 300 packs without a single Masterwork card. Or you can pull one from one pack, like Styx did with his 17O1 FOIL. I pulled my non foil of it in 2 packs. Just now, I got one MW opening 4 Treachery and Deceit packs. Sadly, it's Denethor's Sword.