Towers Standard Sealed Deck Lists and Replays

[Durin's Heir]

At this point in the development, I think we should still be open to tweaking the current decks, and switching certain fellowship/shadow matchups if need be.

I would be against developing entire new decks though. As a few have pointed out, I think we did a good job of representing the decks that got the most interest in the poll.

I think one of the only exceptions was adding the Dunland deck (which not as many people were interested in). But, in this case, it was much more attractive to add some base cards for Dunland rather than pure Moria or Stupid Swarm.

According to the poll, actually Ents got 5 votes (same as Rangers) while mounted Rohan got only 2... though Gandalf supported Rohan got 7. Gandalf supported Shire got 5 too... Last Alliance and Help in Doubt and Need got 5 and 9 votes, but aren't viable in absence of rares (they are possible but have little to no possible teamwork, just a bunch of fellows together).

http://lotrtcgwiki.com/forums/index.php/topic,9009.0.html

Some of you kept saying people didn't vote for Ents, while they did. Were you who didn't want presence of Ents, and the arguments are: 1) they have a deck in Towers Sealed and we don't want/need something similar (Ent Moot; 2 discardable UB Hobbits + 6 non-Unhasty Ents = 8 folks + Frodo), and 2) we don't want the noxious effect that deck has in Series 3 & 4 of that Sealed. I firmly believe those arguments aren't valid:

1) We can ditch RB Rangers using the same criterion (Faramir's starter is very similar but not equal)... We can and did build an Ents deck based on Unhasty ones (which get wounds on your fellowship even if they win the skirmish, more if need a pump or damage, even more if they lose), no permanent pumps (steroid-like Ent Moot) and less companions (the last draft has Gandalf, 2 non-discardable UB Hobbits, and only 2 non-Unhasty Ents).

2) Even if we did a lame copy-paste of that lame Ents/Witch King's starter, it couldn't have the same effect by no possible means: the Shadows here are quite different and much more powerful (and clever), and this format includes the crowd control methods of Fellowship Block (and Easterling Pillager as a foreigner)...


I still think we shouldn't include 2 Rohan decks as both merge together effortlessly and are somewhat very reduntant (except for Gandalf)... Even Gandalf Supported Rohan can merge well with both Valiant theme and allies into a single deck. The deck I posted above can illustrate it better: it's 32 cards, but can be reduced to 30 if we remove Armory and 1x An Honorable Charge, and include it in Serie 1 (it has 2x Hobbit Sword and 2x Severed His Bonds). In the place of mounted (ally?) Rohan, which got only 2 votes.

Look to My Valiant-Ally-Mounted-Trustworthy Coming! draft:

(30 cards)
1x Eomer, Sister-son of Theoden
1x Eowyn, Daughter of Eomund (starting)
1x Theoden, King of the Golden Hall (starting)
1x Household Guard
2x Gandalf, The White Wizard
1x Guma, Plains Farmer
1x Ecglaf, Courageous Farmer
1x Hlafwine, Village Farmhand
1x Weland, Smith of the Riddermark
1x Brego
2x Horse of Rohan
1x Herugrim
2x Rider's Spear
2x Rohirrim Javelin
1x Wizard Staff
2x Hobbit Sword
2x An Honorable Charge
1x Have Patience
2x Severed His Bonds
2x Trust Me As You Once Did
2x Well Stored

That would leave room for 1 deck. Rohan + Hard Choice? Gondor + Elves? Ents? Gandalf & Shire?

Thoughts? Counterarguments?

[dmaz]

http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=dmaz$6bts7u9y1fdpo8zd

Regarding the Naith version of S2S, the strength of the deck needs to be in its healing ability rather than its ability to win skirmishes.

As of right now the deck is basically a well-built constructed deck. Regardless of it being Serie 3, starters shouldn't be built in such a way that you have no incentive to swap out cards.

When compared to other starter decks, take note of the Revised Movie ones as well, there are several things that we can do to tone down the deck, while still making it have the "naith" theme.

1. Don't make it so easy for companions to win skirmishes. The deck will already be healing very effectively, as sealed doesn't ever have shadow condition control guaranteed. The power of that gimli with that legolas, in particular is very strong. We should allow people to tap into this by combining with the Three Hunters deck, but NOT as an end all in this deck. Switching him for either Dwarf of Erebor or Lively Combatant will be beneficial for the deck.

2. There are too many unique companions that have great abilities. Starter decks don't thrive on a host of unique companions. Two or three is fairly common, sometimes decks only have one.  The companion list should look something like this:
Gimli, DoE or Lively Combatant
Legolas, AoM
Fror, Gimli's Kinsman
Balglin, Elven Warrior
Ordulus, Young Warrior

This 5 should be more than enough. As it's going to be Serie 3, let's give the player some incentive to customize a little from what they pulled from the boosters and other starters. That's half of the fun, and our end goal is to foster creativity and variety as opposed to a bunch of clone decks.

Additionally, using these companions would allow you to still provide a modest combination of Naith bows and Elven Swords without making tanked out companions. You would need to rely on playing your skirmishes right, with events, if you wanted to win. You shouldn't be winning most of the time, but with a big Legolas and S2S you can make use of those abilities to enhance your healing and ultimate survivability. I think the spirit of this deck should be stout survivability rather than minion obliteration.

[dmaz]

Here's a more balanced version of the Naith-S2S deck
You still get the flavor that we were shooting for without the very powerful dynamics that were seen in the most recent draft.
In addition to the changes I listed above, I made these swaps as well:

Dinendal, Silent Scout for Erestor, Chief Advisor to Elrond - We already have two allies with 3 vitality, which is some decent healing or usefulness in skirmishing. To have an additional 3 vitality and the optional dynamics for doubling is a little unnecessary. I think for this sealed, it would be safe to leave Site 6 elf archers to booster pulls. We have already found that the fellowships in these decks are very strong, and its going to be an uphill battle for shadows as it is...The inclusion of site 6 elf archers would be crippling, especially since we have a starter that is making them useful for healing companions, and not just the change for direct wounding.

x2 Stout and Strong for x1 Elven Sword and x1 Hand Axe - We have pumps to help win skirmishes. It wouldn't hurt to give the Elves a little more possession support, since we are toning down their base power (Pengedhel, Naith Warrior was a juggernaut), and this is essentially their "big debut" in the League. If someone pulls some decent Elf companions and wants to go full elf, we should have a little hand weapon support. Hand axe is a decent splash. Helps give Fror a little more chance of not being overwhelmed if the person had not picked the serie 1 dwarf deck and wants to play dwarves.

Here it is. I'll be testing it soon to make sure its not too nerfed, though I think it will stand decently. I really did like the idea of having a little Naith incorporated with S2S.

2x Fror, Gimli's Kinsman
1x Gimli, Lively Combatant (starting)
2x Balglin, Elven Warrior
1x Legolas, Archer of Mirkwood (starting)
1x Ordulus, Young Warrior
1x Grimir, Dwarven Elder
1x Thrarin, Dwarven Smith
1x Erestor, Chief Advisor to Elrond
1x Golradir, Councilor of Imladris
1x Saelbeth, Elven Councilor
1x Dwarven Axe
1x Dwarven Bracers
2x Hand Axe
2x Elven Sword
2x Naith Longbow
2x Khazad Ai-menu
2x Still Draws Breath
2x Feathered
2x Valor
2x Shoulder to Shoulder

[Eukalyptus]

With one Archer and those Naith not adding to the archery total, is Feathered a good idea? Flashing Steel might be a better idea.

[dmaz]

With one Archer and those Naith not adding to the archery total, is Feathered a good idea? Flashing Steel might be a better idea.

Good point. That's a good starter deck card.

[Merrick_H]

Re-organized S3 decks dmaz vs. Merrick_H (S2S/Southron vs. Unbound Rangers/Berserkers)

http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=Merrick H$suyisy3om382no2m

Very good game over all and nothing felt too over powered.  The S2S deck works a lot better this way without being too powerful.

I will update the decks in the first post with the updated deck lists and pairing proposals later today.

Additionally, I would like to suggest the following changes:

Series 1
Gandalf & Dwarves
Replace Barliman Butterbur PP with Behold the White Rider
Reason: Giving Gandalf access to Sleep Caradhras and Have Patience is very powerful in sealed.  Giving a person access to 1 of each AND a choice of what to pull back is a bit too powerful in a sealed environment with the way the decks are designed.  This makes Barliman a "What a great common pull!" that can help determine deck choice rather than just another common.  Also, Behold has no spotting requirements and is a support area card that helps Gandalf, so I think it fits well in the deck.

The Three Hunters
Replace Gimli, Unbidden Guest with Gimli Dwarf of Erebor
Reason: This deck already has a the awesome Gandalf signet Aragorn HoE and having a second Gandalf signet companion that can pair VERY well with the Trust Me Deck as well as the S3 Shoulder to Shoulder deck is a bit much in my opinion.  We changed out the Gimli in the S2S deck to prevent the focus from being on winning skirmishes and this way there is less direct pairing potential that makes it the best pat to go Three Hunters/Rohan/S2S.  Additionally Gimli UG is a common and again can be pulled more easily from boosters, where as Gimli DoE is an uncommon.

Series 2
Rohan & Gandalf/Twilight Nazgul
Cut Heavy Chain, Have Patience, 1x Herugrim to make room for 1x Severed His Bonds and 2x Hobbit Sword
Reason: This is now a series 2 deck and requires the minimum hobbit protection package.  I propose cutting those cards as they are duplicates or don't really add much to the deck and to weaken the healing potential somewhat (see my arguments on reducing/not providing the Gandalf Package).

Series 3
Unbound Rangers/Berserkers
Cut 2x Hobbit Sword and 2x SHB and replace with UB ranger centric cards such as 1x Pathfinder (also helps them get a key site for their shadow) 1x Eregion's Trails, 1x What Are They, 1x We Must Go Warily (or something like that).
Reason: This is now a Series 3 deck so we don't need the hobbit package and giving a bit more ranger flavor would be good.

[dmaz]

Series 3
Unbound Rangers/Berserkers
Cut 2x Hobbit Sword and 2x SHB and replace with UB ranger centric cards such as 1x Pathfinder (also helps them get a key site for their shadow) 1x Eregion's Trails, 1x What Are They, 1x We Must Go Warily (or something like that).
Reason: This is now a Series 3 deck so we don't need the hobbit package and giving a bit more ranger flavor would be good.

I like Pathfinder and Eregion's Trails. I think Eregion's Trails rather than What Are They is good.
Since the deck does give the option for a fighting Merry, you could splash x1 Halfling Deftness as a pump with a cost (better than just throwing in a Hobbit Intuition I think...those can get really strong).

EDIT: In light of it being matched with Uruks now, I really think at least x1 Armor would be a good addition. Maybe x2 Armor, Eregion's Trails, Pathfinder?

[Merrick_H]

I'd say 1 armor at most. Don't want them to be too good vs. the Uruks.

[Merrick_H]

Re-organized S3 decks dmaz vs. Merrick_H (S2S/Southron vs. Unbound Rangers/Berserkers)

http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=Merrick H$suyisy3om382no2m

Very good game over all and nothing felt too over powered.  The S2S deck works a lot better this way without being too powerful.

I will update the decks in the first post with the updated deck lists and pairing proposals later today.

Additionally, I would like to suggest the following changes:

Series 1
Gandalf & Dwarves
Replace Barliman Butterbur PP with Behold the White Rider
Reason: Giving Gandalf access to Sleep Caradhras and Have Patience is very powerful in sealed.  Giving a person access to 1 of each AND a choice of what to pull back is a bit too powerful in a sealed environment with the way the decks are designed.  This makes Barliman a "What a great common pull!" that can help determine deck choice rather than just another common.  Also, Behold has no spotting requirements and is a support area card that helps Gandalf, so I think it fits well in the deck.

The Three Hunters
Replace Gimli, Unbidden Guest with Gimli Dwarf of Erebor
Reason: This deck already has a the awesome Gandalf signet Aragorn HoE and having a second Gandalf signet companion that can pair VERY well with the Trust Me Deck as well as the S3 Shoulder to Shoulder deck is a bit much in my opinion.  We changed out the Gimli in the S2S deck to prevent the focus from being on winning skirmishes and this way there is less direct pairing potential that makes it the best pat to go Three Hunters/Rohan/S2S.  Additionally Gimli UG is a common and again can be pulled more easily from boosters, where as Gimli DoE is an uncommon.

Series 2
Rohan & Gandalf/Twilight Nazgul
Cut Heavy Chain, Have Patience, 1x Herugrim to make room for 1x Severed His Bonds and 2x Hobbit Sword
Reason: This is now a series 2 deck and requires the minimum hobbit protection package.  I propose cutting those cards as they are duplicates or don't really add much to the deck and to weaken the healing potential somewhat (see my arguments on reducing/not providing the Gandalf Package).

Series 3
Unbound Rangers/Berserkers
Cut 2x Hobbit Sword and 2x SHB and replace with UB ranger centric cards such as 1x Pathfinder (also helps them get a key site for their shadow) 1x Eregion's Trails, 1x What Are They, 1x We Must Go Warily (or something like that).
Reason: This is now a Series 3 deck so we don't need the hobbit package and giving a bit more ranger flavor would be good.

Any additional thoughts on the proposals above?  I'd like to start finalizing deck lists as soon as possible.

[dmaz]

Gandalf & Dwarves
Replace Barliman Butterbur PP with Behold the White Rider
Reason: Giving Gandalf access to Sleep Caradhras and Have Patience is very powerful in sealed.  Giving a person access to 1 of each AND a choice of what to pull back is a bit too powerful in a sealed environment with the way the decks are designed.  This makes Barliman a "What a great common pull!" that can help determine deck choice rather than just another common.  Also, Behold has no spotting requirements and is a support area card that helps Gandalf, so I think it fits well in the deck.

As you already know, I'm on-board with swapping out Barliman and leaving him to be a booster pull hopeful. On the other thread, Wielder of the Flame was mentioned. I agree on using that card. It would be fun to see it get used for once

The Three Hunters
Replace Gimli, Unbidden Guest with Gimli Dwarf of Erebor
Reason: This deck already has a the awesome Gandalf signet Aragorn HoE and having a second Gandalf signet companion that can pair VERY well with the Trust Me Deck as well as the S3 Shoulder to Shoulder deck is a bit much in my opinion.  We changed out the Gimli in the S2S deck to prevent the focus from being on winning skirmishes and this way there is less direct pairing potential that makes it the best pat to go Three Hunters/Rohan/S2S.  Additionally Gimli UG is a common and again can be pulled more easily from boosters, where as Gimli DoE is an uncommon.

I agree with this too. From all of the playtesting, I feel like it was noted how strong Gimli is (particularly with those Dwarven Axes, which oft times played an integral part in slowing down some shadow strategies); with the pumps provided, he becomes a juggernaut, taking down minions site after site, clearing the board of a key minion at every move. I guess my point is, While Dwarf of Erebor doesn't have any particular game text that is appealing, Gimli in and of himself, is a strong stand-alone character, without adding the Gandalf signet and ability. And as you mentioned, the Gandalf signet Gimli and Legolas are commons, so everyone has at least some chance of pulling them anyway.

Series 2
Rohan & Gandalf/Twilight Nazgul
Cut Heavy Chain, Have Patience, 1x Herugrim to make room for 1x Severed His Bonds and 2x Hobbit Sword
Reason: This is now a series 2 deck and requires the minimum hobbit protection package.  I propose cutting those cards as they are duplicates or don't really add much to the deck and to weaken the healing potential somewhat (see my arguments on reducing/not providing the Gandalf Package).

Looks like a reasonable trade. Frodo support is (almost) always justified.

Series 3
Unbound Rangers/Berserkers
Cut 2x Hobbit Sword and 2x SHB and replace with UB ranger centric cards such as 1x Pathfinder (also helps them get a key site for their shadow) 1x Eregion's Trails, 1x What Are They, 1x We Must Go Warily (or something like that).
Reason: This is now a Series 3 deck so we don't need the hobbit package and giving a bit more ranger flavor would be good.

I like Pathfinder and Eregion's Trails. We Must Go Warily seems interesting too, and would probably fun to see it used (much like Wielder of the Flame, you don't have starters featuring it, that I know of, and it doesn't work competitively outside of sealed ).
I'd vote for a Perilous Ventures, as the Towers block is a little underrepresented in the deck. Alternatively, since it's a regroup action too, you could use Perilous Ventures instead of WMGW, and throw in a War and Valor (although I guess you should already have enough pumps by serie 3...)

[Merrick_H]

Changes made to the first post decklists.  I'll try to get the wiki updated with all three series tomorrow.

Here is what I changed:

Gandwarf -
Traded Barliman for Wielder of the Flame

Three Hunters -
Traded Gimli, UG for Gimli, DoE

Trust/Rohan
Removed: Heavy Chain, 1x Herugrim, 1x Have Patience
Added: 1x Severed His Bonds, 2x Hobbit Sword

Unbound Rangers
Removed 2x Hobbit Sword, 2x SHB
Added: 1x Eregion's Trails, 1x Pathfinder, 1x We Must Go Warily, 1x Perilous Ventures.

Note that We Must Go Warily has an erratum, but still could be an interesting card.

[dmaz]

Changes made to the first post decklists.  I'll try to get the wiki updated with all three series tomorrow.

Here is what I changed:

Gandwarf -
Traded Barliman for Wielder of the Flame

Three Hunters -
Traded Gimli, UG for Gimli, DoE

Trust/Rohan
Removed: Heavy Chain, 1x Herugrim, 1x Have Patience
Added: 1x Severed His Bonds, 2x Hobbit Sword

Unbound Rangers
Removed 2x Hobbit Sword, 2x SHB
Added: 1x Eregion's Trails, 1x Pathfinder, 1x We Must Go Warily, 1x Perilous Ventures.

Note that We Must Go Warily has an erratum, but still could be an interesting card.

Yeah, without the erratum, it's pretty darned strong! With the erratum, it might be tough to pull off effectively, but I really like that the deck has a little flavor of a theme to it (the trying for a double move through the use of regroup events), this makes the Boromir that we are using fit decently with it, as he can heal himself next turn

[Durin's Heir]

I know I should have spoken earlier.... Sorry for that.

There are some thoughts:

1) Gandwarves: There is a little change that may be implemented: to exchange an Axe Strike with a second Flurry of Blows. To give usefulness to an eventual pull of 2x Axe Strike at Serie 1, as Flurry of Blows appears at Set 2.

2) The Three Hunters: I agree with that combo of Gimli, UG and Legolas, AoM being too powerful, but Unbidden Guest should be an option in a deck. NOT at Serie 1 but at Serie 3 with StS, when Gondor, Rohan and Gandalf reach great heights and Elves (without Pengedhel) will need a little help from their short friend to compete with Men...

There are better options than Dwarf of Erebor (which just doesn't fit here) for a Three Fighters deck: Lively Combatant and 0P62 Dwarven Delegate (no Gandalf signet, or signet at all). I wouldn't fear Gimli's skill to clear the board, as those 3 Shadows at Serie 1 are grinding ones instead of heavy fighters; even Uruk Trackers work their way through grinding: Weary is way more important than pumps or swords.
Dwarven Delegate would be my choice, to prevent early overwhelmings and to give the Hunters a slightly better fighter. Legolas will be much weaker without Unbidden Guest, so Gimli will have to bear more weigth as a figher. And that strength aid is much lesser than that combo to pump Legolas at every site for free (and feed TMAYOD at Serie 2)...

While DoE is an uncommon, Dwarven Delegate and Lively Combatant can't be acquired from boosters...

3) RB Rangers: Dmaz said there is a lack of representation of Towers cards in the UB Rangers deck at Serie 3... that's because there are almost no plain Rangers tricks at Two Towers. But there's plenty for RB Rangers, so Towers representation should be there. New Errand... I'm defending that card for a last time (it's awesome); Arrows Thick in the Air is another good one.

If RB Rangers provide a fortification (City Wall), they steal a strong resource from Knights and turn unbalanced the decision of which Gondor deck to choose, to complement the UB Rangers deck at Serie 3 for a Gondor coupling. And if they use Sam, Proper Poet to counter swarms, Elendil's Valor might be a redundant resource (may be very dangerous: Aragorn, HoE + Proper Poet + Elendil's Valor at 9). Then there would be 2 card slots to reuse with RB Rangers events. I'd add 2x New Errand, or 1x and 1x ATiTA.

4) Shoulder to Shoulder: I agree with the replacement of Thonnas and Pengedhel with weaker Elves, but those 2 selected are laughable. Ordulus is a Lorien Elf +1 strength, and Balglin's skill won't trigger more than the removed Feathered (for the same reason). And you ditched Haldir, EotG, reducing the Elven companion count from 4 to 3...

2x Lorien Swordsman or 2x Lorien Protector can be better than those 2 unique elves, and 1x Haldir should be restored.

Unbidden Guest should be present here. Just look at the possibilities of full Gondor (Three Hunters, Knights/RB Rangers and UB Rangers), full Rohan with TMAYOD, even Gandwarves + TMAYOD... Here this UG + AoM combo shouldn't be OP. Three Hunters + UB Rangers can provide tricks (Agility + Trust combo) and an Elven Sword for a mounted Arwen, while StS can't get Asfaloth if the player doesn't pull it...

By the way, the other 2 decks in Serie 3 have a choke card (and chances of using more choke cards from boosters): NSttS for Rangers and ATfNBS for Hobbits+Smeagol. Shoulder 2 Shoulder doesn't have any choking potential...

5) Saruman + Rohirrim Traitors: If you fear TMAYOD by itself (even worse with Three Hunters), then add One of You Must Do This. At Serie 1 that event is devastating, but at Serie 3 can be a necessity, moreover with this deck being somewhat weak. Don't know what to remove here to add 2x OoYMDT...

6) Valiant Rohan + Gandalf: Since some time ago I started to like the idea of 2 Rohan decks, as most other cultures have 2 (Gondor has 4)... but Sigewulf?!?! Please change that useless ally... He can't be used as requires to spot 5 Valiant men and the deck provides only 4, and 5 Valiant men + Frodo means likely there will be only 4 at Regroup.

Leod is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better, and completes the coupling of mounted companion themes (Elves, Gondorians or Gandalf) with Weland, Horse of Rohan/Brego, Well Stored and Eomer, SSoT. PLEASE replace Sigewulf with Leod...

That's all.

[Merrick_H]

1) Gandwarves: There is a little change that may be implemented: to exchange an Axe Strike with a second Flurry of Blows. To give usefulness to an eventual pull of 2x Axe Strike at Serie 1, as Flurry of Blows appears at Set 2.

While Flurry of Blows is really nice once you get 2 weapons on a dwarf, Axe Strike is a more consistent pump, which is needed in order to win some of the skirmishes.  The benefit is it works with Dwarven Axe or Hand Axe.  I'd keep it as is.

2) The Three Hunters: I agree with that combo of Gimli, UG and Legolas, AoM being too powerful, but Unbidden Guest should be an option in a deck. NOT at Serie 1 but at Serie 3 with StS, when Gondor, Rohan and Gandalf reach great heights and Elves (without Pengedhel) will need a little help from their short friend to compete with Men...

There are better options than Dwarf of Erebor (which just doesn't fit here) for a Three Fighters deck: Lively Combatant and 0P62 Dwarven Delegate (no Gandalf signet, or signet at all). I wouldn't fear Gimli's skill to clear the board, as those 3 Shadows at Serie 1 are grinding ones instead of heavy fighters; even Uruk Trackers work their way through grinding: Weary is way more important than pumps or swords.
Dwarven Delegate would be my choice, to prevent early overwhelmings and to give the Hunters a slightly better fighter. Legolas will be much weaker without Unbidden Guest, so Gimli will have to bear more weigth as a figher. And that strength aid is much lesser than that combo to pump Legolas at every site for free (and feed TMAYOD at Serie 2)...

While DoE is an uncommon, Dwarven Delegate and Lively Combatant can't be acquired from boosters...

I love the idea of Gimli, Dwarven Delegate rather than Dwarf of Erebor and support his inclusion.

3) RB Rangers: Dmaz said there is a lack of representation of Towers cards in the UB Rangers deck at Serie 3... that's because there are almost no plain Rangers tricks at Two Towers. But there's plenty for RB Rangers, so Towers representation should be there. New Errand... I'm defending that card for a last time (it's awesome); Arrows Thick in the Air is another good one.

If RB Rangers provide a fortification (City Wall), they steal a strong resource from Knights and turn unbalanced the decision of which Gondor deck to choose, to complement the UB Rangers deck at Serie 3 for a Gondor coupling. And if they use Sam, Proper Poet to counter swarms, Elendil's Valor might be a redundant resource (may be very dangerous: Aragorn, HoE + Proper Poet + Elendil's Valor at 9). Then there would be 2 card slots to reuse with RB Rangers events. I'd add 2x New Errand, or 1x and 1x ATiTA.

I think that given the testing that we have done and the balance that the RB Rangers have right now, I don't really want to rock the boat with them.  They are the weakest skirmishing fellowship at this point as they require a fair amount of support.  This means that they will generally have issues with big minions and getting overwhelmed.  Additionally, the general lack of healing (aside from Faramir) means that they are more susceptible to wound creep.  I like that they have a weakness, but also a strength in their sacrificial companions.

4) Shoulder to Shoulder: I agree with the replacement of Thonnas and Pengedhel with weaker Elves, but those 2 selected are laughable. Ordulus is a Lorien Elf +1 strength, and Balglin's skill won't trigger more than the removed Feathered (for the same reason). And you ditched Haldir, EotG, reducing the Elven companion count from 4 to 3...

2x Lorien Swordsman or 2x Lorien Protector can be better than those 2 unique elves, and 1x Haldir should be restored.

Unbidden Guest should be present here. Just look at the possibilities of full Gondor (Three Hunters, Knights/RB Rangers and UB Rangers), full Rohan with TMAYOD, even Gandwarves + TMAYOD... Here this UG + AoM combo shouldn't be OP. Three Hunters + UB Rangers can provide tricks (Agility + Trust combo) and an Elven Sword for a mounted Arwen, while StS can't get Asfaloth if the player doesn't pull it...

By the way, the other 2 decks in Serie 3 have a choke card (and chances of using more choke cards from boosters): NSttS for Rangers and ATfNBS for Hobbits+Smeagol. Shoulder 2 Shoulder doesn't have any choking potential...

The focus of this deck is not in their skirmishing power.  In testing we discovered that the original elves were too good at skirmishing and healing in the maneuver phase and were thus VERY hard to kill.  By including these two particular elves, we don't help their skirmishing ability, but provide some other nice abilities (built in armor if bearing a ranged weapon) and a slightly better Lorien Elf.  Given the general lack of indirect wounding (no elven bows, but naith longbows instead) Lorien Swordsman is pretty bad (just like feathered) and Lorien Protector is from outside the block, something we wanted to limit as much as possible.

5) Saruman + Rohirrim Traitors: If you fear TMAYOD by itself (even worse with Three Hunters), then add One of You Must Do This. At Serie 1 that event is devastating, but at Serie 3 can be a necessity, moreover with this deck being somewhat weak. Don't know what to remove here to add 2x OoYMDT...

Have you seen the replays where dmaz combined the Uruks and the evil men?  They are VERY powerful when combined.  Additional wounding capability is not needed.  As with all series 3 decks,  they may feel a bit weaker because we are designing them to be able to have support from the previous series cards.  I think the deck is fine as it is.

6) Valiant Rohan + Gandalf: Since some time ago I started to like the idea of 2 Rohan decks, as most other cultures have 2 (Gondor has 4)... but Sigewulf?!?! Please change that useless ally... He can't be used as requires to spot 5 Valiant men and the deck provides only 4, and 5 Valiant men + Frodo means likely there will be only 4 at Regroup.

Leod is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better, and completes the coupling of mounted companion themes (Elves, Gondorians or Gandalf) with Weland, Horse of Rohan/Brego, Well Stored and Eomer, SSoT. PLEASE replace Sigewulf with Leod...

I support this change.

That's all.
[/quote]

[Durin's Heir]

I like your arguments, and agree with most of them. We agreed on points 2 and 6, and your point 1 is very good (Axe Strike provides better survival). But I've got some little discrepancies:

3) What you say about RB Rangers is true, they are the weakest standalone fellowship at that point and sacrifices can give them better chances. It's just I'd like to see more presence of those great tricks they have, and those events suffer the same treatment as We Must Go Warily and Wielder of the Flame: aren't competitive in constructed and aren't included in a starter (where would shine)...

That, and Aragorn, HoE + Elendil's Valor + Proper Poet worries me a little. Aragorn + Sam was an actual scenario at Site 9 in one of your playtestings... Should it have Elendil's Valor as a 3rd Defender bonus possibility? I'd replace Elendil's Valor with either ATitA or New Errand. Or even might of Numenor, as they have little healing and lots of exertions.

4) Balglin's skill is a good one, I hadn't realized then. But it doesn't work as you think: the minion must be wounded, not the companion must bear a ranged weapon (the same as Lorien Swordsman); you are mistaking him for Naith Warband. Balglin has my vote (Shadow player will choose who gets Legolas' arrow, but if mounted will trigger his skill automatically), but Ordulus should be replaced by any decent elf (that is, with 3 vitality points): Lorien Swordsman, Lorien Guardian, Haldir, EotG, Ferevellon, Thandronen, Arwen, EoHP...

I said Lorien Protector when meant Lorien Guardian ... Sorry. And the Elven companion count should be 4 instead of 3, as it will be their debut as the main force in a deck.

-1 Balglin (there is another copy)
-1 Ordulus
+1 Lorien Swordsman or Lorien Guardian
+1 Haldir, EotG or Ferevellon (or even another Swordsman/Guardian)

Lorien Swordsman and Balglin may be very useful in a coupled Mounted Elves deck. And Fereveldir, which is present in the Three Hunters.

5) I haven't seen the replays you mention and can't find them on this thread (Uruk Trackers + Men), but your point is good with that coupling. I wonder if they have such a powerful combination with Hate and Anger archery, the other possible Isengard theme to mix... there one copy or two of OoYMDT can enhance significatively both Uruk Archers and Saruman, SotE.


As I said, those are little discrepancies and nothing more. And there is an additional point:

7) Rohan Allies (Serie 1): That deck has 1x Brego and 3x Rider's Mount. It should have 2 or 3 of those Rider's Mount exchanged for Horse of Rohan, in order to get coupling potential with Gondor decks at Serie 2 (Knights and RB Rangers can't couple with Valiant Rohan, which has 2x Horse of Rohan + Brego)... Mounted RB Rangers (Horse + Ranger's Bow) can be worthy of that little twilight increase. Mounted Knights can be a good option too.

UB Rangers and Elves at Serie 3 can benefit too from that change, if a player doesn't choose Valiant Rohan at Serie 2.

EDIT: Writing was pretty bad at first. Improved some arguments too.