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81
Valinor / Re: Post your Gemp-LotR bugs here
« Last post by TelTura on October 24, 2023, 07:57:11 PM »
I'm actually going to push back on that long-standing community ruling (not a Decipher ruling).  Having reviewed it, I'm not sure that it stands the sniff test. 

I have posted in the Mount Doom thread here: https://lotrtcgwiki.com/forums/index.php?topic=2592.msg99446#msg99446
82
Archives of Minas Tirith / Re: Mount Doom
« Last post by TelTura on October 24, 2023, 07:55:29 PM »
I'm actually going to push back on the interpretation canonized by this thread, that Mount Doom only activates once a player steps on it. I can appreciate the historical effort in squaring the circle, but I think that besides being unintuitive in effect, it's not actually based on a solid and consistent rule.

In the previously quoted Active section, we have this, including the example right after:

Quote
Sites are always active. A site's game text cannot be used unless the fellowship is there, although some cards may copy and use that game text.
If the game text of a site has a Shadow special ability, you may use that special ability only when the active fellowship is at that site and you are a Shadow player.


Section on "game text" :

Quote
Game text includes all the text in the box below the card type line. . .Any boldfaced keyword that appears in this box (such as Easterling, Fierce, or Defender +1) is game text.


So: keywords (as game text) cannot be "used" unless the fellowship is at that site.  "Use" is not defined, but if by "use" it means "spot" (which is about all you can do with unloaded keywords), then this section completely breaks Lost in the Woods and Brutality and a small host of other Shadow cards from sets 11+ that spot keywords on sites.

Note that this does not say "once a fellowship steps on a site, the keywords are now permanently active", which is approximately what would be required for keywords to remain in force for LITW to be able to spot once a fellowship has passed it.  If that line is taken seriously, then LITW etc can only spot at most 1 forest, the one that (might) be the site that the fellowship is currently at.

But let's take this community ruling and run with it.  Even if the above issue wasn't in play, the MD ruling does not distinguish between pending sites that are "in front" of the fellowships vs pending sites "behind" the fellowships: if one were to use Traveled Leader to put a forest site behind all fellowships, it would result in a permanently unspottable forest, since no one could ever step on it to activate its game text.  I doubt however that anyone ever has decided to track un-initialized forests to make sure LITW counts one less than one would otherwise assume by counting the keywords on the adventure path.

So what's broken here?  Frankly, that section of the Active entry.  It is out of date, and was never updated to reflect the realities of the Shadows cards that it would otherwise alter the behavior of.  !Never mind the release of a site from Hunters era, long after rules maintenance was a job nobody had anymore.

If that section is broken, then the community ruling based on it is bunk, too.  It can't actually be consistently applied without breaking about a dozen other cards, as shown above.

The most intuitive reading of Mount Doom is simple: as soon as it's played, the second half of its game text activates, the same way that everyone treats the first half (the keywords) as being spottable (and thus, well, active).  I agree that in a perfect world, this would be explicit: "When you play Mount Doom, for the rest of the game, all sites in this region cannot be replaced".  But sites have limited space, and clarity was often sacrificed for brevity's sake at all stages of the game's history, never mind Hunters block. 

It's the world's most softball ruling request possible, but the sheer timidity of TLHH to ever add to Decipher's canon got in the way, and instead now we have a rules-lawyering unwritten ruling that has to be explained to every new player who trips on it and (justifiably) reports a bug.  After all, who would have ever guessed that "cannot" means "can, actually"?  Walks like a bug, and quacks like a bug.




I would propose issuing an errata to the Active section as follows:

Quote
Sites and their keywords are always active, and so can always be spotted (even if controlled in a player's support area). Other game text on sites is inactive by default unless the fellowship is currently at that site, and so can only trigger or be activated during that time.  Some cards may copy and use a site's game text independently of whether that game text is currently active (see Uruviel, Maid of Lorien (1C67)).

If the game text of a site has a Shadow special ability, you may use that special ability only when the active fellowship is at that site and you are a Shadow player.

Exception: Site text is not active when the starting fellowships are played.

If a site's game text specifies a trigger relating to the state of the site itself, the trigger still activates even if the fellowship is absent.

Nurn (17U148) reads: While you control this site, each of your hunter minions is strength +1.  This trigger activates as soon as the site is controlled, even though no fellowship is currently at it.

If a site modifies whether it or another site can be replaced and does not otherwise specify a trigger, that game text activates as soon as that site enters play on the adventure path.

Mount Doom (15R193) reads: Until the !end of the game, sites in this region cannot be replaced.  This game text activates as soon as it is played, preventing it or other sites within its region from being replaced, even if no player has yet arrived at that site.  (This is a reversal of a long-standing community ruling.)


83
Valinor / Re: Post your Gemp-LotR bugs here
« Last post by Orophoin on October 24, 2023, 01:16:53 PM »
As the card is worded, this isn't a bug.

A site's text is only active when the fellowship is at that site (otherwise, for example, The Prancing Pony could be used every turn). Since your opponent wasn't at that site, it could freely be replaced.

Mount Doom is different because it had the text "for the rest of the game", so once the text is activated (by a fellowship moving to it), it is in place forever. Even that site can be replaced before a fellowship moves there, however.

Perhaps this is one for the PC to consider rewording, as it's just as abusive as always as things stand.
84
Valinor / Re: Post your Gemp-LotR bugs here
« Last post by Dori on October 23, 2023, 07:30:58 PM »
Opponent replaced Doorway to Doom in PC. This happened in a previous game too.

https://play.lotrtcgpc.net/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=Dori$x8jmrg45p33s5iy5
85
Valinor / Re: Post your Gemp-LotR bugs here
« Last post by Victauic on October 20, 2023, 09:10:05 AM »
https://play.lotrtcgpc.net/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=victaulic$t93anmusev67i5oz

Site 8: I played dawn take you all and triggered Gandalf's effect to wound a minion when a gandalf event is played, i clicked the spider because i forgot you cant target smaug with gandalfs effect so it would automatically hit the spider, but it allowed me to target the spider with the wound a minion twice effect from Dawn Take You All even though it only had one vitality left, i would assume smaug would be the only legal target in this instance since he had 2 vitality left and spider only had one.
86
Valinor / Re: Post your Gemp-LotR bugs here
« Last post by Phallen Cassidy on October 03, 2023, 12:59:34 PM »
Counterpoint, all the FP replacement effects like Mighty Steed specify that the companion must not be assigned in the game text. Assignment actions don't do that because the rules do it for them.

In fact, even Return to Its Master can break an assignment rule: you can assign a non-fierce Nazgul to skirmish the Ring-bearer during the fierce skirmishes, even though the rules say "...ignore any effect that results in assignment with a minion that is not fierce." But that's because the rule is "During the fierce assignment phase, ignore any effect that results in assignment with a minion that is not fierce." Similarly, I think it's pretty reasonable to exempt Mordor Assassin from any assignment action restrictions.

The assignment cancelling may have instead been to prevent 3 copies putting 3 Nazgul on the Ring-bearer without bothering with trying to shape up the wordiness of something more specific such as "and if the Ring-bearer is assigned to a skirmish, cancel that assignment. Then assign a Nazgul..." Or perhaps make sure that Gimli or Legolas with their weapons don't win a skirmish against a Goblin Runner or Morgul Skulker and kill the Nazgul with the trigger. I personally have always enjoyed the idea of it too, that all focus turns to The One Ring and the one who holds it -- even among the players.
87
Valinor / Re: Bad Gemp Players' List
« Last post by Fingolin on October 02, 2023, 10:53:56 AM »
roeslayer: rage quit (RB was dead, threats were just not assigned).

https://play.lotrtcgpc.net/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=Fingolin$9wexzgndzo9g55x3
88
Valinor / Re: Bad Gemp Players' List
« Last post by Fingolin on October 02, 2023, 01:23:08 AM »
Donald01 back at rage quitting: https://play.lotrtcgpc.net/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=Fingolin$j7tjol7o3js69jiv
89
Valinor / Re: Post your Gemp-LotR bugs here
« Last post by Ringbearer on October 01, 2023, 09:01:58 AM »
Mordor Assassin does not work as it should. If that minion is already assigned to a skirmish, the system does not let you use his response action properly even if the conditions are met. In this particular case I overhelmed a companion with another one of my mordor orcs. Meanwhile my Mordor Assassin was still assigned to skirmish a different unboud companion. The trigger to use Mordor Assassin's response action popped up, however when I used it it only removed the threat without reassigning the minion to the RB. Thanks for fixing this, here's the link to the game (it happens on site 5): https://play.lotrtcgpc.net/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=Donald01$0jh1dq3ui8f1vyx2
I could be wrong here but it seems the Mordor Assassin was still assigned to a skirmish. An assigned minion cannot be reassigned. I have seen the same thing with clicking multiple times on Orc Assassin. Its why Return to Its Master explicitly cancels all assignments.
90
Bag End / Re: Found this card holder among my stuff
« Last post by Tunadan on September 30, 2023, 10:15:04 AM »
That's the Countdown Collection. It was released as a promo for the ROTK release. Here's a longer article on it:
https://wiki.lotrtcgpc.net/wiki/The_Countdown_Collection
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