Pelennor Prairie

[Elgar]

a similar question, A fools hope and deceit

Since deciet references a free peoples card, it can be used to prevent discard. 

Theres another ambiguity with a fools hope I havent wrapped my head around yet.  Does the discard of conditions happen all at once (ie choose 2 conditions discard the rest) or one at a time?  I assume one at a time.  If this is true, when you use deciet to prevent the third last condition, would you still need to continue to discarding?  What if you had 3 gollum conditions, and "protected" each with deciet, could you keep all three in play?

I'm certain there's precedence somewhere, but I don't remember it.

[hrcho]

Are you saying there's a known ruling that makes Siege Engine not work against BRC?

This might look familiar:

Siege Engine can't prevent a Shadow player from discarding cards.
Siege Engine can't prevent the effect of Blood Runs Chill. Even though Blood Runs Chill is a Free Peoples card, it makes a Shadow player discard.

Same reasoning seems to imply Feared Axeman won't work against Pelennor Prairie, since it makes the Free Peoples player discard.

Finally, Deus Ex Machina! Thank you EA! 

[Thranduil]

Fair enough! I think I've lost this argument before. I thought it was a bit silly then, and I still do now! It sort of violates the principle that the source of any effect is the card on which it was printed. But never mind.

Thranduil

[Elessar's Socks]

@hrcho: Haha, well, it was ket who remembered there was a ruling.

Theres another ambiguity with a fools hope I havent wrapped my head around yet.  Does the discard of conditions happen all at once (ie choose 2 conditions discard the rest) or one at a time?  I assume one at a time.  If this is true, when you use deciet to prevent the third last condition, would you still need to continue to discarding?  What if you had 3 gollum conditions, and "protected" each with deciet, could you keep all three in play?

I'm certain there's precedence somewhere, but I don't remember it.

From precedence (reference Fortress Never Fallen, 1/29/04 CRD; and Plundered Armories, CR) it seems that when multiple or "all" cards are discarded from play, they are discarded simultaneously. I wonder if this is a case of choosing two conditions to save, and then the "about to be discarded" stage kicks in for the rest at the same time.

[Elgar]

From precedence (reference Fortress Never Fallen, 1/29/04 CRD; and Plundered Armories, CR) it seems that when multiple or "all" cards are discarded from play, they are discarded simultaneously. I wonder if this is a case of choosing two conditions to save, and then the "about to be discarded" stage kicks in for the rest at the same time.

Thanks, I knew it was somewhere (FNF clarification). 

[Kralik]

I'm digging up this old one because I'm not yet convinced. Or at least I don't think it's as clear as it should be.

Case: Frodo, Courteous Halfling vs. Tower of Barad-dur

Frodo clearly prevents ToBD. However, I found Decipher's BRC example lacking as it notes that Siege Engine doesn't work because the Shadow player chooses what to discard. But it is (apparently) different when the Freeps is "choosing" what to discard from hand?

[hrcho]

It might have something to do with the fact that Siege Engine and Gimli, FA text are both Response actions, while Frodo, CH outright forbids card discarding.

[Elessar's Socks]

IMO the problem is on CH's end for fiddling with the source rule. The glossary entry basically makes him read like Old Noakes (i.e. "Shadow cards may not make you discard cards...").

Not sure if that answered your question?

[Tbiesty]

Think of it this way...

For each action, there are two things to consider.

1st)  The "card" causes the action.
2nd)  The "player" that must carry out that action.

The way a card is worded determines precisely what it can prevent:

(Example 1)
Frodo, Courteous Halfling can prevent an opponent's "card" from causing the action.

(Example 2)
Gimli, Feared Axeman and Siege Engine, can only prevent an opponent "player" from carrying out the action of discarding a condition; if the Free Peoples player must carry out the action, it is not prevented.

[Kralik]

Ah, but the difficulty I see is that cards like Tower of Barad-dur and even Orc Inquisitor are worded such that the Free Peoples player does carry out the action.

[Tbiesty]

Ah, but the difficulty I see is that cards like Tower of Barad-dur and even Orc Inquisitor are worded such that the Free Peoples player does carry out the action.

That is correct.  For Tower of Barad-dur and Orc Inquisitor, the "cards" cause the action, and the Free Peoples player carries out the action.

That is why Frodo, Courteous Halfling can prevent them, since it prevents the Shadow card from causing the action.  If instead, he was worded "...a Shadow player may not discard cards from your hand or from the top of the draw deck." Then he wound not prevent cards like Tower of Barad-dur and Orc Inquisitor.

Hope that clears it up.

[Elessar's Socks]

For Tower of Barad-dur:

(1) The source is a Shadow card.
(2) The source is forcing the discard.
(3) The player who carries out the action is the FP player.

Courteous Halfling can prevent Tower of Barad-dur because he checks for (1) and (2), and they both pass. He doesn't check for (3).

For Blood Runs Chill:

(1) The source is a Free Peoples card.
(2) The source is forcing the discard.
(3) The player who carries out the action is the Shadow player.

Siege Engine can't prevent BRC because it checks for (3), and that fails. It doesn't check for (1) and (2).

[ket_the_jet]

@hrcho: Haha, well, it was ket who remembered there was a ruling.

I'm not denying that I am probably awesome, but when was I involved in this conversation?
-wtk

[TheJord]

Maybe someone can post a clear and definitive explanation of the situations encountered in this thread?

I'm too lazy

[Ringbearer]

For Tower of Barad-dur:

(1) The source is a Shadow card.
(2) The source is forcing the discard.
(3) The player who carries out the action is the FP player.

Courteous Halfling can prevent Tower of Barad-dur because he checks for (1) and (2), and they both pass. He doesn't check for (3).

For Blood Runs Chill:

(1) The source is a Free Peoples card.
(2) The source is forcing the discard.
(3) The player who carries out the action is the Shadow player.

Siege Engine can't prevent BRC because it checks for (3), and that fails. It doesn't check for (1) and (2).

This.

Its a case of wording. Its very subtle but there is a difference between CH and Siege Engine.
Siege Engine checks who does the discarding. CH checks for the source.