Respecting other toughts

[Pepin The Breve]

   Well, since the discussion about the evolution issue seems to be shuted due to circunstances i just want to make clear that i respect people that think different than me, and i apologize if i had been disrespectful at any moment, that is not my intention for sure, cause i every like to hear (and read) about different opinions.  I agrre with what GT said about "don´t take something by true just because it´s the most difunded opinion" although i have my disagrees with the context presented there.

   Since it´s not my goal incite a new starting debate about the question to see people "ofending" each other i will just express my feeling that people look with critic eyes to other people ideas: You may not agree with them, but sometimes just trying to understand they point of view is very productive.

   Like i always said: respect other ideas, think about them and you may change some of your perspectives and don´t judge people just because of one aspect of their beliefs.

[FingolfinFinwe]

Agreed.  I may not agree with your view Pepin, but I can certainly respect your opinion.  For me it is clear that this universe is a created existence.  I believe in the Bible absolutely, though translation can cause confusion.  I believe the "days" in genesis to be more than just days; basically I tend to believe in a created, old earth/universe.  As for macro evolution, I have never been convinced and I do not like how the theory has been presented as fact since its ineption.  I'm pretty much undecided on the issue, and frankly see it as irrelevant, since I believe whatever way we were brought into existence was purposeful, and designed completely by God.  Our purpose, which is to worship, enjoy, and live for Christ is absolute regardless of how we got here.

I think it is a good discussion.  If people get off base or there is spam, the thread should be tidied, but overall I think it's healthy to talk about this stuff.

[Gil-Estel]

but sadly, somehow emotions always are getting the best of people. I wish it wasn't so, because I love to debate, especially with those who have different opinions

[Kralik]

People usually have good reasons for believing what they believe, and there are intelligent people on both sides of an issue. You may believe that they are dead wrong, or misguided, or whatever, but there is no reason to resort to name calling or assume that they are "idiots." Even when I don't agree, I still respect the other person, and try to communicate that respect.

[FM]

Ok, time to step in (otherwise you guys are gonna think I just goof around and don't pay attention to stuff... ).
Problem is, there's no such thing as "reason". People are just not reasonable, statistically speaking. So whenever you say you don't agree with them, because they wrote an essay on the subject, they take it personally, figuring you don't believe THEM, or that their opinion has no value whatsoever. Or worse, they just reserve themselves the right to assume you're an idiot for "arguing against the data". It's really rare to find someone that can TRULY hear what you're saying, take it into consideration and even switch sides after seeing a valid argument. Think about it, how many of YOU ever did that here?
Moving on, some members, and I can name AD, G-E and TheJord as some of them off the top of my head, REALLY do post their opinions, answer questions, etc. But other members, instead of contributing to it, expanding on it, etc, simply tend to further the discussion with more and more questions to "try and break" what the other said. As an example, I've seen some questions beign asked (and NOT asking for a specific opinion, but for an ANSWER), in religion-related topics, that shortly after they were answered, the asker posted something like: "well, then how do you explain ___"? Really, if you already KNOW that bit of information and the contrast between them, given the beliefs of a certain creed, and if you don't want to take into consideration AT ALL the opinion of the other member, then DON'T ASK! Don't ask just for the sake of "breaking" them, SPECIALLY when MOST of our debating topics are about BELIEFS, which bottom line is, there IS no arguing about. Period.
I like the "truly" debating threads (like the ones about politics and campaing issues, and in THESE ones it's fine to try and break the other debater, that IS the general idea anyway), and I've been having some nice and healthy chats over MSN with some members, as well as reading some nice stuff here, but I think A LOT of you are going WAAAAY overboard whenever it breaks into discussion, and you're taking things personally way too much. And to be honest, I'm getting tired of it, since it's the same thing over and over again.
Let's just hope we don't have ANOTHER discussion topic locked, deleted or otherwise discontinued by stuff like this, shall we?
Sorry for the long post, but I've been wanting an opportunity to say this in a while now, and this topic just fitted the bill perfectly.

Felipe R. Musco, aka FM.

[SomeRandomDude]

Exactly. You are entitled to your own opinion. However, so is everyone else. You can respectfully disagree, however, in the forums, moderator policy will always place "respectfully" before "disagree" in consideration of your post.

If you disagree, point out why you disagree and respond thoughtfully. Don't just say "that's stupid" and compare your perceived rival to Hitler.

[sickofpalantirs]

compare to hitler LOL

yeah I have definitly noticed it, indeed up to a few months ago I was always trying to break the other debater.

But than I realized, "Hey, we are all intelligent people (with the possible exception of mr lurtzy, who must be senile from old age) and we disagree...why?  well there must be valid reasons on both sides of the issue.  And though I may never agree with you on certain things, I can at least respect you for being civil about your beliefs.

yeah.
basically.

[Gate Troll]

I realized too late I'd get verbally lynched for that example.  I was just trying to say that the majority isn't always right. In no way was I trying to compare Pepin with the Nazis. I was, however annoyed since it seemed Pepin was dismissing Creationism purely because it was not widely accepted by scientists in general. I feel that the topic might not have been locked if turin08 hadn't come in, happily lambasted me, and left. Pepin, I apologize if I have offended you, I was not trying to attack the man, but his ideas. 

[FM]

Which is STILL wrong anyway. What will you get for attacking anyone's ideas? Post yours, and back them up. That's it. It's yet ANOTHER topic that, when it comes down to it, it revolves around faith (because creationism IS based around faith, wether you like it or not; I believe in a part of it, and I still admit it), and there's no use arguing about it, won't do any good.

[SomeRandomDude]

I feel that the topic might not have been locked if turin08 hadn't come in, happily lambasted me, and left.

Someone needed to.

I think the topic would have just been locked later, as you were doing a pretty good job of wrecking it.

[FM]

And on an added comment, turin08 came in, said EXACTLY WHAT WAS HAPPENING and left because he didn't want to be caught in flame wars. I fully endorse NBarden's action on locking the thread as it was, although if our forumers want it unlocked, I can do so, AFTER I clean it up. So?

[sickofpalantirs]

I think we should unlock it and give it another try...I mean we were having some good discussion...

[Gate Troll]

And on an added comment, turin08 came in, said EXACTLY WHAT WAS HAPPENING and left because he didn't want to be caught in flame wars.

No, turin has argued with me fiercely back on CC and things were really calming down until he came along. I respect the mods, but I reserve the right to disagree with them. I'm not going to flame anyone, I'm not going to bash anyone, but in a nutshell, I believe the situation was handled very poorly. Turin was much more offensive than I was, I was attacking a bad idea,turin was attacking me. I can't believe what the mods think is flaming. I would be guilty of flaming if I had posted: something to the effect of: "PEPIN SUCKS!" or an offensive picture. I did not. I called a bad idea bad, and in return I got tarred and feathered. To make things worse, MR. Lurtzy had simply posted something about agreeing with SoP and NBarden jumped all over Lurtzy for 'spamming'. Lurtzy replied with something like this "Let us not confuse opinions with ideas." The mod edited his post needlessly. I protested, and NBarden censored my post and wrote me two PMs. To sum all this up, what if someone's post is arrogant? Should I ignore the truth? Or should I tell people what they want to hear? I've browsed debate forums before, and while people use words like: stupid, and arrogant its much better than saying that something is nice when it isn't. If you noticed I didn't say anything bad about
Pepin. Turin said something bad about me. The mods hold me up as a flamer. The mods hold turin up as, in NBarden's words: Doing something that "Someone needed to." In other words, someone needed to attack me. Or in Felipe's words "turin08 came in, said EXACTLY WHAT WAS HAPPENING and left because he didn't want to be caught in flame wars." Wow. They condemn me for arguing reasonably and clap turin on the back for attacking me. The evidence stands. Its up to you, my good reader to form your own conclusion.

[Centurion]

Eloquent gate troll eloquent however that topic was meant was to be a simple list of the people on either side of the issue I take full responsibility for the results that I should have forseen and apologize. If anyone was offended I assure you all that I did not intend to spark a flame war of any kind or for that matter conflict of any kind.

Forgive your humble commander of a hundred

[FM]

Whine all you want, rant all you want, play the victim if it suits you. But don't expect to become a martyr of the community by claiming that the moderators are out to get you. I try really hard to be reasonable and impartial, since I already made a mistake back on CC, with leokula, and up to this day, I still think that 100 apologies for what happened wouldn't make him ever trust me again, so I'm not up for having it happen here as well.
I have no business with how moderator X handled situation Y. We have guidelines for posting, and they must, and WILL be respected. If you care to take a look at said topic, you'll notice every SINGLE offensive post, including the one made by turin08, was deleted by me. However, his post was not offensive as you claim, he didn't attack you. He said you had no right to go about calling other people's thoughts utter stupidity, which you DID, several times.
Also, I happen to agree with you (and made a case on it with the site's two Admins, who btw endorsed my view) about Lurtzy's one-liner, and those are perfectly fine, at least the way he made his (which is why, again, THAT post was not deleted from the thread, to serve as an example). But about the whole "arrogant" thing, there are WAYS to say things. Instead of saying "That's pretty arrogant", italicized, try something along the NON-OFFENSIVE lines of: "Don't you think that may be a little over the top on your part?", or just PM the user. THe way YOU did it, DID sound offensive, and you KNOW it because you insisted in repeating the same manner of posting afterwards.
I'm not here to censor users, but I can't do anything if you don't know how to exercise your freedom of speech without sounding offensive. Thing is, this site has an owner, so it's not a "public" speaking place, so whining about how you're being crucified for being yourself won't cut it, if you're an offensive user. WE don't have to put up with you the way YOU are, it's YOU that have to adapt to the site's rules.
I think you're a good member of the community, but you need to work on your posting skills to avoid this kind of behavior, because if it comes down to that, I'm all for losing an active member who can't get a grip of himself, like what happened with USF, rather than losing other equally pleasant members like SM or hawkeyes, who wouldn't want to hang around a Forum where that behavior becomes common. However, I'd much rather keep everyone of you guys around.
But yeah, let's allow your good readers to form their conclusions, shall we? Ok, then, if anyone wants to discuss this matter further, and I mean any user at all, feel free to PM me, I'll be glad to talk it over with you.