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Author Topic: An Unexpected Party  (Read 19441 times)

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May 19, 2008, 12:00:26 PM
Reply #15

Hobbit_Pizza

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Re: An Unexpected Party
« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2008, 12:00:26 PM »
I hated that in TT they showed the Easterlings marching and shouting, making you eager to see them kick #$&*@! at some point in RotK (especially wearing their Full Clad - Like Shredder from TMNT lol) but then they barely used them at all in the later film, with hardly enough screen attention to aknowledge their presence.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2008, 12:04:07 PM by Hobbit_Pizza »

May 19, 2008, 12:30:57 PM
Reply #16

DáinIronfoot

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Re: An Unexpected Party
« Reply #16 on: May 19, 2008, 12:30:57 PM »
Changes in the movies that I actually liked:

- Elves at Helm's Deep. I know it seems a bit hokey, but the Elves NEEDED something like that in the films. The willingness to not leave Men to "stand alone" and fulfill their ancient alliance, even if Men hadn't held up their end of the bargain over the years, was a poignant moment and one I think Tolkien himself would have approved of.

- Theoden. I, for one, liked how they made him "petty" for most of The Two Towers. Yes, it made his character less palpable until Return of the King, but I think it was a wonderful look into how we Men actually work, and it made his eventual heroic ride to Gondor all the more fulfilling to me.

- Faramir. Here, too, I know many people were up in arms over the change in character. But I think most of the changes made him a more INTERESTING character. As much as I love Tolkien, he wrote Faramir pretty blandly after his initial few chapters. The Faramir of the films is much more complex and I had a much easier time being sympathetic to him than I ever was to the novel version of him. I'm not ashamed to admit that his suicidal charge into the hundreds of Orkish archers in Osgiliath was one of two moments that made me cry on first viewing...and that was even knowing that he'd (probably) survive.

Changes I DIDN'T like:

- Denethor. Granted, his film character was still fascinating, but it made it difficult to believe that Gondor would ever have put up with him for so long. He was SO over the top it was almost painful to watch. The truly distressed Denethor of the novels that more gradually spirals downwards was much more interesting.

- Arwen. Jeez...how many scenes can so small a character be shoved into?! Did you know they originally planned to have her at Helm's Deep before the actress (not the director or producers or any other staff, mind you) said "this might not be such a good idea"!?! Oy. I can understand why they expanded her character so much, and I begrudgingly admit it adds some interesting layers to the storyline, but it was WAY excessive.

- Host of the Dead. I agree with others that the way they were handled, while more "dramatic" for a movie, made the ride of the Rohirrim (and the sacrifice of many Gondorians) seem moot. Could have been handled differently while still accomplishing the "drama" they were shooting for.

Those are just my initial thoughts. I may think of more later....
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Dáin


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May 19, 2008, 05:25:04 PM
Reply #17

MR. Lurtzy

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Re: An Unexpected Party
« Reply #17 on: May 19, 2008, 05:25:04 PM »
I'd agree with everything 'cept denethor. He only went mad after Boromir died. He was a pretty good ruler before that.

May 20, 2008, 01:02:49 AM
Reply #18

menace64

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Re: An Unexpected Party
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2008, 01:02:49 AM »
I think some purists were really worked up though by the confrontation between Gandalf and the Witch-king at the Gate. Whereas in the movie the Witch-king seems to have the easy upper hand (both practical and symbolic from the breaking of the staff), I think in the books they were either about equal, or Gandalf (the White) was the stronger.

Quite right, except I feel that I must emphasize that Gandalf was infinitely stronger than the Witch-king. Gandalf, a reborn Maiar sent back to Middle-earth - unveiled in all his power - and set opposite of Sauron himself. At the time of the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, Gandalf was second in power only to the Dark Lord. The Witch-king was a withered ghost of a man from years and years ago. Hence Gandalf's utter annoyance at the Witch-king's silly assault upon him at the White Gate in the book. The only reason Gandalf didn't tear him up right then and there was the pressing situation with Faramir.

Seeing Elves at Helm's Deep irked me, and watching the Grey Host sweep across the Pelennor made my stomach turn over. But the movies aren't the books in three-dimensional form; they are the books according to Peter Jackson, just as the thousands of paintings of famous Lord of the Rings scenes are interpretations of their respective artists. Peter Jackson decided (rather intelligently) to put all the emphasis of the movies onto the Ring, with as few deviations inserted where needed to tell as much story as possible. Under that umbrella, the Dead can suddenly be at Minas Tirith (because you, average movie-goer, don't know about their original mission to stop the Corsairs from stealing all hope away from the battle). The Elves can show up at Helm's Deep (because you, the average movie-goer, don't know that Lothlorien is under attack as well). Saruman can die atop Orthanc... all is still well in the Shire (because Frodo decided to set out to destroy the Ring, not save the Shire).

See what I'm rambling about? The only parts of the movies that I don't care for are when the core story arcs surrounding the Ring deviate from the book. Take, for instance, the character of Faramir. Now, I completely understand why the writers gave Faramir the qualities he starts with, only disregarding the Ring after growing in strength, but it still bothers me. Faramir, to me, was always that calm sea in the torrential ocean. He was the opposite to Boromir, and it was refreshing to see someone so spiritually strong. And I didn't like Frodo going over the edge within Mount Doom. Sure, it brought a tension to the scene that wouldn't have existed otherwise, but still... It's way too cliche for my tastes.

And, for the record, if the Nazgul had spotted the Ring in Osgiliath in the hands of a Hobbit at the end of The Two Towers, then Sauron would not have attacked Minas Tirith at all. He would not have assumed Pippin had the Ring when he caught him gazing into the Palantir. Sauron would have said, "No, you can't have it, because I saw a Hobbit with the Ring in Osgiliath like... two days ago." Sauron would have sent all 9 Nazgul to Osgiliath, followed soon after by every army and scout force he had on-hand. The proximity of Osgiliath to Mordor would have told Sauron that the Free Peoples were attempting the unthinkable - that they would seek to destroy the greatest power available to them (after all, if they had the Ring and wanted to keep it, they would have not brought it so perilously close to him). Frodo would have been caught in Ithilien and killed. Story end.

May 20, 2008, 11:25:28 AM
Reply #19

sickofpalantirs

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Re: An Unexpected Party
« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2008, 11:25:28 AM »
LOL never thought about that osgiliath thing, but actually, he would've thought that faramir was taking him to minas tirith probably, so still would've attacked.
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May 20, 2008, 11:39:53 AM
Reply #20

menace64

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Re: An Unexpected Party
« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2008, 11:39:53 AM »
More likely than not, Sauron had no knowledge or interest in Faramir and the rangers in Ithilien. If Sauron cared or knew about them, they would have been killed. All Sauron knew up until Frodo's emergence at Osgiliath was that, A) the Ring had been found, and, B) a Hobbit was carrying it South.

That's why Pippin looking into the Palantir (in the book) made Sauron attack Minas Tirith prematurely. Sauron saw a Hobbit *much* further South than he'd previously been aware of and jumped the gun. Had Pippin not looked into the Palantir, there wouldn't have been the resulting siege and Frodo would have found himself surrounded by Sauron's entire army.

May 20, 2008, 05:45:21 PM
Reply #21

sickofpalantirs

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Re: An Unexpected Party
« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2008, 05:45:21 PM »
but he still would've seen a hobbit near to minas tirith, so he still would've wanted to strike, and he might've see that he was a captive, and deduced that they were going to minas tirith.
Felipe Musco:
(after all, it's a CHARITY organization, I still have SOME principles, even having gone through Law School... :P),
Elf Lvr:
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May 21, 2008, 04:13:32 PM
Reply #22

TheJord

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Re: An Unexpected Party
« Reply #22 on: May 21, 2008, 04:13:32 PM »
Timing is an aggravating thing in the films, which I can understand. It seems like it took a few hours to march to the Black Gate from Minas Tirith.
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May 21, 2008, 04:22:05 PM
Reply #23

sickofpalantirs

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Re: An Unexpected Party
« Reply #23 on: May 21, 2008, 04:22:05 PM »
yeah...but they can't spend 2 hours showing frodo and sam walking, and then the soldiers marching...they could say 3 hours later but that is cheesy.
Felipe Musco:
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May 21, 2008, 04:23:33 PM
Reply #24

TheJord

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Re: An Unexpected Party
« Reply #24 on: May 21, 2008, 04:23:33 PM »
Exactly, a 13 week film just to show the true length of the plains of Gorgoth would have been excessive
"The rule of Gondor is mine!"

May 21, 2008, 05:11:23 PM
Reply #25

Elessar's Socks

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Re: An Unexpected Party
« Reply #25 on: May 21, 2008, 05:11:23 PM »
Timing is an aggravating thing in the films, which I can understand. It seems like it took a few hours to march to the Black Gate from Minas Tirith.
It took a few days! Yeah, that would not have been fun for the moviegoers.

As for opportunities to take the Ring... The Witch-king really should've snatched it from Frodo on Weathertop instead of trying to pull off something cute. Or even sweep the entire inn that night at Bree. They were too relaxed.

May 21, 2008, 05:13:21 PM
Reply #26

TheJord

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Re: An Unexpected Party
« Reply #26 on: May 21, 2008, 05:13:21 PM »
The book explains that the Nine are weak away from Mordor, unless they are together. At Weathertop only 5 of them (I believe) were present. They felt that Frodo would become a Wraith for sure when Wikkie stabbed him.
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May 21, 2008, 05:19:56 PM
Reply #27

Elessar's Socks

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Re: An Unexpected Party
« Reply #27 on: May 21, 2008, 05:19:56 PM »
Hence, trying to pull something cute. ;) Or if the Witch-king really wanted to get his jollies by stabbing Frodo... stab him and then cut off his hand.

May 21, 2008, 07:11:14 PM
Reply #28

sickofpalantirs

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Re: An Unexpected Party
« Reply #28 on: May 21, 2008, 07:11:14 PM »
And aragorn intervened before anything could really happen...he barely even had time to stab the hobbit, plus didn't yelling out some old names have some weird effect?

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May 21, 2008, 07:28:49 PM
Reply #29

MR. Lurtzy

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Re: An Unexpected Party
« Reply #29 on: May 21, 2008, 07:28:49 PM »
And aragorn intervened before anything could really happen...he barely even had time to stab the hobbit, plus didn't yelling out some old names have some weird effect?

Mr lurtzy: cause they are blatant spam. at least post more than a sentence.
Just because I posted one sentence doesn't mean it's spam, in fact if you had read it, you would of clearly seen it wasn't. Stop harassing me now.