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Author Topic: Leofric and Long Spear / Dernhelm's Blade  (Read 4746 times)

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October 31, 2017, 11:08:52 PM
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Durin's Heir

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Leofric and Long Spear / Dernhelm's Blade
« on: October 31, 2017, 11:08:52 PM »
Can Leofric play a Long Spear or Dernhelm's Blade from draw deck by using his skill (and meeting all requirements: he can exert, is skirmishing, there's a potential bearer and can pay another cost like adding a threat)? -I guess the answer is yes, but want to hear the opinion from soneone else.

I've always liked that text of Long Spear but never found a way to make it worthy of including in a competitive deck, and perhaps this is the right card to so.

Thanks in advance.
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November 01, 2017, 05:38:56 AM
Reply #1

Enabran

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Re: Leofric and Long Spear / Dernhelm's Blade
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2017, 05:38:56 AM »
I would say no. It is still a possession, not an event. 

Leofric says: If Leofric is in a skirmish, exert him to play a [Rohan] skirmish event from your draw deck.

November 01, 2017, 07:28:40 AM
Reply #2

ket_the_jet

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Re: Leofric and Long Spear / Dernhelm's Blade
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2017, 07:28:40 AM »
I would say no. It is still a possession, not an event.
I would strongly suggest the answer is 'no.'
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November 01, 2017, 08:43:55 AM
Reply #3

Ringbearer

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Re: Leofric and Long Spear / Dernhelm's Blade
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2017, 08:43:55 AM »
Its a definitive "no" here. Although they can be played at the same time you could play a skirmish event, its not an event but a possession, and as such cannot be played.

December 07, 2021, 08:22:14 AM
Reply #4

TelTura

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Re: Leofric and Long Spear / Dernhelm's Blade
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2021, 08:22:14 AM »
Thread necro, but this was recently brought up in regards to Riders of the Mark (with the same question).

Now to me, I read this as opposite what others have said here. My first knee jerk was to also say "not an event, so it's not eligible", but look at the text on those cards: "You may play (this) any time you could play a skirmish event".

Any time

Like, this is a time where we have a card saying "play a skirmish event". I would say this falls under "any time you could play a skirmish event".

In other words, these cards seem similar enough in effect if they read "if you are about to play a skirmish event, play this card instead".
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December 07, 2021, 09:52:23 AM
Reply #5

Tunadan

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Re: Leofric and Long Spear / Dernhelm's Blade
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2021, 09:52:23 AM »
I'd say no. It's not a skirmish event, and therefore Leofric cannot play it.
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December 07, 2021, 09:55:04 AM
Reply #6

Tunadan

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Re: Leofric and Long Spear / Dernhelm's Blade
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2021, 09:55:04 AM »
To flesh it out, at the moment you look at the card in your draw deck, it's not an event. It's a possession. Since it's a possession, you can't play it via leofric. If it said, this card is considered an event, then you could, however, it just says you can play it when you can play a skirmish event, not as if it was a skirmish event.
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December 07, 2021, 10:39:36 AM
Reply #7

TelTura

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Re: Leofric and Long Spear / Dernhelm's Blade
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2021, 10:39:36 AM »
If I'm invoking Leofric and I declare that I am playing a skirmish event from the deck, and I then ask each card in the deck whether it can be played, then I would expect every skirmish event to say "yes", and also for these three cards to also say "yes". The cards are still possessions (or companions), but they *also* can be played at this time, since they explicitly say so.

If Leofric said to discard a skirmish event from your draw deck, then I agree that these cards would not be valid targets. But I think their text is essentially saying "this card gets treated as a valid choice when you try to play a skirmish event".

As mentioned, the "any time" thing is key. It doesn't say "you may play this possession during the skirmish phase", it takes it a step further and says "you may play this anytime you could play a skirmish event". I feel like the only reason to bother wording things this way at all is to enable such situations as a card being played from the draw deck, else why bother?

In other words, I think the cards ARE in fact saying "act as if this is a skirmish event, but only when trying to play one".
« Last Edit: December 07, 2021, 10:43:45 AM by TelTura »
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December 08, 2021, 05:20:14 AM
Reply #8

Orophoin

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Re: Leofric and Long Spear / Dernhelm's Blade
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2021, 05:20:14 AM »
To flesh it out, at the moment you look at the card in your draw deck, it's not an event. It's a possession. Since it's a possession, you can't play it via leofric. If it said, this card is considered an event, then you could, however, it just says you can play it when you can play a skirmish event, not as if it was a skirmish event.

Exactly this. When a card says it can be played, it means from hand, unless specified otherwise. There is no mention of being able to play the non-events from your draw deck.

You can play a condition at any time in the fellowship phase. That doesn't mean you can play one from your deck instead of a character when you play AWiNL.

December 08, 2021, 07:19:43 AM
Reply #9

TelTura

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Re: Leofric and Long Spear / Dernhelm's Blade
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2021, 07:19:43 AM »
Why then didn't these three cards just say "You may play this during a skirmish"?
« Last Edit: December 08, 2021, 08:00:50 AM by TelTura »
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December 08, 2021, 02:06:06 PM
Reply #10

Tunadan

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Re: Leofric and Long Spear / Dernhelm's Blade
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2021, 02:06:06 PM »
From the looks of here and Discord, this is a contentious matter :lol: I still hold to my interpretation, though I will say that I really don't mind if you implement your interpretation onto GEMP.
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December 20, 2021, 10:58:58 AM
Reply #11

Phallen Cassidy

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Re: Leofric and Long Spear / Dernhelm's Blade
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2021, 10:58:58 AM »
To flesh it out, at the moment you look at the card in your draw deck, it's not an event. It's a possession. Since it's a possession, you can't play it via leofric. If it said, this card is considered an event, then you could, however, it just says you can play it when you can play a skirmish event, not as if it was a skirmish event.
When you play them you don't play a skirmish event, but that is a feature of the text and not an issue. If they said "this card is considered an event" then wouldn't you expect it to be discarded from the void, as an event would? Play Riders of the Mark, exhaust a minion, discard it -- that's playing the card as if it were an event.

You can play a condition at any time in the fellowship phase. That doesn't mean you can play one from your deck instead of a character when you play AWiNL.
If there were a Gandalf condition that said "You may play this condition any time you could play a companion," then why couldn't it be played? That's a great example because it takes the timing out of the question. Compare the wording of Riders of the Mark to Great Heart -- if the text of the Rohan cards were only telling us when the card could be played, then Great Heart would have to be written in a similar way ("You may only play this condition when you could play a skirmish event"). Gollum, Plotting Deceiver shows yet another way the Rohan cards could have been written ("During a skirmish, you may play this companion from hand"). That the Rohan cards deliberately mention events when they don't have to makes me think that it's not just about "when" but "what" as well.


An interesting question is whether you think these cards can be played during a skirmish at Cavern Entrance*. They're not skirmish events and they're not special abilities, right? And yet obviously there's something skirmish-event-esque about them, distinct from just their ability to be played during a skirmish phase the way Great Heart is.