Hobbit Game on Gemp - Current Status and Bugs

[Phallen Cassidy]

Thanks, daisukeman!

You were close - Bofur isn't listed as 1 twilight, Dori is listed as 2. Corrected the code for the next round of fixes!

I won't be changing the text from "burdens" to "doubts" anytime soon, though it might be a good addition later on. Right now, it'd be comparable to doing brain surgery to help with a nose job As with Lord of the Rings, no stacked cards can be spotted so there's no reason to believe that they could count for anything.

And for card quantities - has there been any testing on opening up the restrictions? It's a simple change for the most part, but I'd advise you to be weary of the length of time between changes. I agree that right now it's far too complicated for constructed, but I don't think anyone would approve of making The Hobbit draft-only on Gemp. Since Enola has a player base, I suggest some testing to be done in person before we put some of these theories up as solutions.

[-Enola-]

The player base is hard to activate quickly for constructed Hobbit. We'll have to make some theories and choose the best one.

[daisukeman]

Thanks, daisukeman!

You were close - Bofur isn't listed as 1 twilight, Dori is listed as 2. Corrected the code for the next round of fixes!

Cool! So there's your quick way to validate for minor bugs on twilight and the likes.
Looking at the full list, I can see that precisely, dwarven song is also bugged (apparently using 1 cost for twilight).

[Durin's Heir]

@Phallen: I cannot see your fixes as Pull Requests on Github. I use that to know which bugs' fixes are already coded, in order to list them in blue in the Bugs List.

Are you certain about Underground Lake?

Creator sent me the replay link, and there is no such bug. He just was confused: in discard pile there was a Great Goblin's Power, AND in draw deck there was only 1 condition he could play (due to remaining twilight): another Great Goblin's Power. So he thought he was replaying the discarded one. But the game log says it was played from deck, and the copy in discard didn't disappear (to return to support area).

http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=Creator$rb04ufgvdzgt1hqm

You were close - Bofur isn't listed as 1 twilight, Dori is listed as 2. Corrected the code for the next round of fixes!

I'm just realizing that using this method (Gemp's deckbuilder, all Hobbit: The Short Rest cards, sorted by twilight) we could have found each and every base twilight bug from the very start! So besides Dori, found only these 2: Dwarven Song (should be ), and Great Barricade (should be ).

Thanks daisukeman!

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@Enola: I see an immediate fail in allowing only 1x of each each Sup pack card, versus 4x of all Shadow cards (except Smaug and the Sup packs). With so much Shadow power and multicultural combos, having 2x of those additional FP cards will be not an option, but a need!

So starting with 2x will be a much safer bet for the next server restart... here's the detailed explanation:

Moria swarm will easily lose all its conditions.

Yes, Moria Swarm depends on conditions and 2x Acorn + Ancestral Knowledge (+2x Thrush to repeat) will be very strong. But remember that there will be 4x Not At Home to recover them, and 2x Riddles in the Dark to punish Bilbo if exerts to use the Thrush/Dori. Also, 2x Riddles and 2x Caught in a Sack will create a greater need of discard than those conditions, and thus will take their bullets a la Kevin Costner!

Finally, Bert can be splashed.

Gandalf The Grey + a lot of events....

I don't see that being so perilous, Beorn and The Eagles Are Coming wear down Gandalf's vitality (and so does Dawn Take You All). Also, he will already have 4x He Gives Me Courage, 4x Dawn Take You All and 4x Take Up Arms, so 2 more events (4 instead of 2) won't add so much.

To rely on The Grey's skill, you need to assure you'll be having enough post-fellowship events in the critical moments when will be needed. And the only FP cycling cards to do so are Gandalf Friend of Thorin (negated by The Grey) and "Ori + Balin" (which needs you to pack a great % of cards, competing with the events). Now, compare that to 4x Spider Nest, or 4x of each of the Three Stooges + 4x Troll Knife... or even worse, 4x Gollum + 4x If He Loses! And don't forget about the 2 basic sites 5 discarding Gandalf (you cannot bid too high to go 2nd AND also use The Grey's artifact/companion fetching comfortably)...



About R-listing allies... extra copies of the same unique card have only 2 uses: discard-to-heal (if is a character) and play sooner. Elrond doesn't need more healing, and Bard will then have The Master and Bain. To play sooner, AWINL is much better. Also, there's no discard decks here to worry about (and anyway AWINL plays from discard too). So 1x Elrond and 1x Bard plus 3x or 4x AWINL will be much better even with the Esgaroth/Rivendell pack. There's no need to R-list them.


R-listing each Dwarf companion is a need. But perhaps the Dwarf followers may be left outside that, since each of those 6 plays an important role to both create your own strategy, and counter your opponent's Shadow one, so that creates a natural pressure to include everyone (except perhaps Ori) in the deck... which often means 1x only to not bloat the deck too much (at most 2x).

That'd leave the R-list with only
- 6 companions,
- Gandalf and Bilbo,
- The One Ring and the 3 artifact weapons.

That's much simpler to read and remember, and restrains players much less.

We might even remove from that list the 3 Gondolin weapons (leaving only The One Ring), since 1 is played by site 2 and Orcrist's extra copies will be better as copies of Dwarven Axe. That'll reduce The Grey's power over the other Gandalfs (and anyway that's not so bad with so many events...).

[-Enola-]

Ok for 2x each Sup card, it could also be 4x with some cards in the R-list.

If you have a follower multiple times in your deck, you don't need so much Bilbo's Kitchen and TMOMK to have the follower you want.

Don't know yet, what will be in the Elrond pack, but we can change later and put Elrond in the R-list.

Listen the players about Gandalf the Grey, he seems far more OP than I saw in draft games.

[Durin's Heir]

Don't know yet, what will be in the Elrond pack, but we can change later and put Elrond in the R-list.

Ok. Those are different formats, and each should have its own Restrictions list. Elrond and Bard won't need more healing in the current.

Listen the players about Gandalf the Grey, he seems far more OP than I saw in draft games.

You can change The Grey's text a bit, giving some cost. Something simple, as changing it to " spell", thus removing He Gives Me Courage from the bag of wounding tricks (but it'll still be key to sweep the doubts he'll be adding, and thus will compete with the spells). Or "each time you play a event, you may discard a card from hand to wound a minion", thus each event will need 2 cards from hand for 1 wound...

Sauron will change things a lot, he'll be assigning The Grey to strong perils over and over (and Gandalf will exert/add doubts by himself)... but that's too late for this format.

If you have a follower multiple times in your deck, you don't need so much Bilbo's Kitchen and TMOMK to have the follower you want.

- TMOMK: it won't be replaced, it's key to bring back the exact follower your opponent wants you to NOT have. For instance, you can pack 3x Bombur to counter Beatdown/Swarm soon, but opponent might play Grind and thus prefer to remove your sole copy of Óin... it is after the Shadow player counters your follower support, and thus reveals his/her strategy, it's then when your copies of TMOMK are most useful!

- Bilbo's Kitchen: When playing with Aragorn, people pack 2x or 3x copies regularly, but still they try to start him with The Prancing Pony / The Riddermark. Also, the need of packing 5 or 6 different followers is to have resources to counter any possible Shadow strategy your opponent throws at you... but Bilbo's Kitchen is at site 1, while opponent will reveal the Shadow strategy at site 2+!


If you still want to R-list followers, let the weakest ones be. Bombur is really strong, Dori is key for swarm protection, and Óin is a really powerful healing machine. Those 3 are much more worrisome than Bofur (doubts pile up), Bifur (often replaced by Acorn/Ancestral Knowledge) and Ori (somewhat weak). So if you still want, R-listing 3 or 4 of them should be enough.

In the next format, King Under the Mountain changes everything and thus there the R-list might need to contain every Main Deck follower.

Ok for 2x each Sup card, it could also be 4x with some cards in the R-list.

Hmmm, that requires a lot of thinking, but can be a good alternative.

[-Enola-]

Ok for the number of copies, but I let you be in charge of the balance of the game on gemp.

Gandalf The Grey is a very good in draft, but balanced (since you have to take a lot of events and not other cards during the draft). He will not change, players know him well now. You have to adapt him for the constructed game.

[Chrispy77]

I agree with Gandalf the Grey. Direct wounds seems to counter everything- kills gollum, smaug, big warg guys, even spiders. I haven't lost with the deck yet... and that's with the copies of cards we're allowed.

If he were to be errata'd for a constructed format, maybe he could work like Bilbo- "When you play a (gandalf) event, discard a card from hand to wound a minion".

It's not Gandalf destroying a shadow on a site that's so bad, it's how easy it is for him to double with Beorn feeding Gandalf more events every time he beats anything that looks at him funny.

[-Enola-]

In the next format "The Clouds Burst", only Nenya and Gathering of the Three Rings could be a good cards for Gandalf The Grey, but this time Shadow players have Narzug, Jail and The Great Enemy to counter it.

I think the problem is more Beorn than The Grey. We could put Beorn on the R-list and ban (or put on the R-list) Eagles Are Coming. Moreover, Beorn can be discarded by Yazneg when he is not attached to a companion.

[Chrispy77]

Actually Belen's text says he can't be discarded by shadow cards- did you mean you wanted to change this? I agree a Beorn fix could fix most of the issue- on a double move against things that are fierce Gandalf can grab 4 events with Beorn.

[Phallen Cassidy]

Actually Belen's text says he can't be discarded by shadow cards- did you mean you wanted to change this? I agree a Beorn fix could fix most of the issue- on a double move against things that are fierce Gandalf can grab 4 events with Beorn.

Followers' texts aren't supposed to be active when not attached to a companion. I didn't know this when coding the cards, and hadn't considered that Beorn could be discarded when his text isn't active. I'll work on fixing that when I can.

[Chrispy77]

Also Enola do you remember which company you used to promote for printing hobbit draft game cards? I think I'd like to print a set but not sure where to look.

[Chrispy77]

-Also I didn't know that either Phallen. Thanks!

[Phallen Cassidy]

The following should be good to go for the next reset:

Corrected "Great Barricade" twilight cost
Corrected "Dwarven Song" twilight cost
"Bilbo, Master in Riddles" should properly make Gollum strength -2 when he discards 2 cards from hand, with a limit of -4
"Ancestral Feuds" now has a limit of -3
"Thranduil, Elven King" should no longer take wounds from archery fire (but should be able to take direct wounds in the archery phase)
"Beorn" should properly prevent discarding, but only when borne

[-Enola-]

Also Enola do you remember which company you used to promote for printing hobbit draft game cards? I think I'd like to print a set but not sure where to look.

This one

http://www.printerstudio.com/