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February 27, 2020, 12:04:36 PM
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MysteriousWizard

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More rules questions
« on: February 27, 2020, 12:04:36 PM »
Hi all,

Thanks for the quick response last time. A few more rules questions have come up for us, we'd be grateful for some clarifications:

Actions:
  • Can I use the fellowship discard-to-heal action on a character with
    Black Breath, just to discard the card?

Don't Look at Them:
  • This card has a clarification to the skirmish ability, adding the
    requirement 'Spot Smeagol'. Does this mean that, as printed, it could
    have been used even if Smeagol were not in play? What if Smeagol is in
    play, but is not skirmishing any minions, can it be used then?

Special abilities:
  • Can I use a special ability if I am unable to perform it's effect? For
    example, can I activate Days Growing Dark if I do not have a copy of
    Smeagol in my discard pile, just to discard cards?

Skirmish resolution order:
  • Do abilities which trigger upon winning a skirmish happen before or
    after wounds are assigned/characters are overwhelmed?

Promise Keeping:
  • Does this trigger at a different time to a 'winning a skirmish'
    ability? If not, what order do they happen in? The order matters for You're a Liar and a Thief
  • Is it true that if a character is overwhelmed, no wounds are placed,
    so this ability will not trigger?
  • Does this trigger multiple times if a minion is damage + X, and if so,
    does it trigger seperately as each wound is placed? Would this allow a
    damage + 1 minion to kill a companion with 3 vitality, by exerting them
    after the first wound is placed, but before the second?

February 27, 2020, 03:01:42 PM
Reply #1

ket_the_jet

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Re: More rules questions
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2020, 03:01:42 PM »
Re: Black Breath and an extra copy of a unique character, you cannot discard that card since you cannot carry out the action.

Re: Don't Look at Them
Yes, the errata was meant to counteract people "free cycling" hands. You can absolutely use Don't Look at Them even if Smeagol is not assigned to a skirmish. Of course, Smeagol, Poor Creature is just as good for cycling and doesn't require extra deck slots.

Re: Special Abilities
Similar to the ruling on Beneath the Mountains, where you cannot discard if there is not a hand weapon in your discard pile, you must have a copy of Smeagol in your discard pile to use Days Growing Dark.

Re: Skirmish Resolution Order
A character overwhelmed ends the skirmish immediately; triggers happen afterwards. In the example of something like Ulaire Toldea, Winged Sentry, the free peoples' player can assign the wound or the exertion/burden first.

Re: Promise Keeping
- If you win a skirmish, you can assign the wound, then exert for that wound, then play You're a Liar and a Thief, then exert for the wound caused by that event. If there are a bunch of threats in play, Promise Keeping is a quick way to exhaust and potentially wipe out a fellowship.
- You are correct in that overwhelmed characters do not take wounds.
- Exactly as you stated it. If you have a damage+1 minion, you can kill a three-vitality companion, then place another exertion for the second wound. If there are any threats in play, you can also exert for each placed threat.

Cheers,
-wtk

February 28, 2020, 01:43:19 PM
Reply #2

MysteriousWizard

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Re: More rules questions
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2020, 01:43:19 PM »
Awesome, thanks wtk!

A further question concerning abilities:
  • Why am I allowed to activate Don't Look at Them if I am unable to perform the effect (no minion skirmishing Smeagol) if the same is not true in other cases (discard to heal vs Black Breath, Days Growing Dark without Smeagol in discard)?
  • In general, do I need to be able to meet both the cost and the effect to be able to play a card/activate a special ability?

February 28, 2020, 02:51:49 PM
Reply #3

Phallen Cassidy

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Re: More rules questions
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2020, 02:51:49 PM »
For Days Growing Dark, the rules explicitly forbid it in the entry for effect (which also answers your second bullet):
Quote from: Comprehensive Rules 4.0
If you meet all the requirements and pay all the costs for playing a card, you may play that card even if the card will have no effect.

Exception: If you perform an action that has playing a card from hand or discard pile as part of its effect, you must play that card. This exception applies to all kinds of actions and all the different ways you can play a card (except playing a card directly from your draw deck).

For Black Breath, I had always taken a view similar to ket's, that the action is really "Heal a unique companion/ally to discard a copy of that character from hand," which is why you likewise cannot discard to "heal" a companion without any wounds. But it turns out the rules don't say that:
Quote from: Comprehensive Rules 4.0
discard to heal

As a fellowship action during your fellowship phase, you may spot a unique companion or unique ally with at least one wound and discard a card from your hand with the same card title(it may have a different subtitle) to heal that character. (See healing.)

There are a only a handful of cards that prevent healing, but if there's a wound it seems you ought to be able to discard a card from hand to do nothing in those circumstances. Thoughts, anyone? Definitely not how I've been playing up to now.

March 23, 2020, 02:15:40 PM
Reply #4

Kreggers

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Re: More rules questions
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2020, 02:15:40 PM »
The way it is worded ("discard a card...to heal that character") I think implies that the only way you can discard the card is if you perform the healing action. Since Black Breath eliminates that healing ability, discarding the card to do so in Fellowship phase wouldn't be allowed (the way I interpret it).

March 23, 2020, 06:42:27 PM
Reply #5

Phallen Cassidy

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Re: More rules questions
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2020, 06:42:27 PM »
Common misconception, Kreggers. Here's one of the rule entries under Effect:

Quote from: Comprehensive Rules 4.0
If you meet all the requirements and pay all the costs for playing a card, you may play that card even if the card will have no effect. Exception: If you perform an action that has playing a card from hand or discard pile as part of its effect, you must play that card. This exception applies to all kinds of actions and all the different ways you can play a card (except playing a card directly from your draw deck).

The requirements are 1) spot a unique Free Peoples character with at least one wound and 2) discard a card from your hand with the same title, so even though the character can't heal the Free Peoples player is still free to get rid of the card. It's the same rule that allows as the Free Peoples player to play Elf Song without any burdens and the Shadow player to play Such A Little Thing without Boromir on the table. Helps a lot with hand clog!