Erkenbrand's Horn Debate

[Malachi]

If I was in PC I would never ban New Chapter. Instead I would errata it to say "heal an companion". Horn problem solved, card remains legal to play.

Same goes for Steadfast champion. Make it say "heal a Wizard three times" - and the fruit loops dies, while the card remanins legal to play.

[SomeRandomDude]

Nobody uses New Chapter, though, outside of Horn deck. And errata is really messy. Nobody likes to be told that their card doesn't work how they thought it does.

I generally oppose errata. I've always been a fan of Combo Banning. Like, ban Treebeard and Steadfast Champion in the same deck, ban New Chapter and Erkenbrand's Horn in the same deck.

Problem solved.

[MR. Lurtzy]

Just errata new chapter to once a turn or sommat.

[SomeRandomDude]

Errata is a bad idea. Errata means that combos will be shut down in open, even, which is a format starved for new decks. Errata also means that cards don't work as they're printed. Meaning great frustration for players trying to remember errata. Errata should only be used if the cards saw great play before the combo ie, Strange Looking Men got the x-list instead of a bunch of errata ideas. Cuz nobody ever played with it.

Same with New Chapter. Nobody used it pre-horn, so its okay to get axed.

[NappyKorn]

I have to agree with NB on this point. Though I hate x-listing when it gets out of hand, I hate errata even more. It is hard enough to remember now what cards got errata and what the errata is unless you bring the print out with you everytime you play a game. X-listing a card in one format is fine, since you can just avoid a format when playing. Giving a card errata effects all formats the game is played in (including open and casual). Open and casual games are ment to test you in every aspect of the game. Since the game is dead anyway and no new sets will be coming out I say (if we do anything at all) just x-list New Chapter in standard. The Horn deck will get smashed in Open format anyway. Keeping it legal in expanded would even be fine as there are so many crazy combos in that format too.

Like many have stated, the Horn deck can be dominated easily with mass archery, good corruption and other decks that aren't just focused on a horn kill . You can even set up a good swarm deck and play (or swap the site to) Cavern Entrance and that can even beat the horn. Granted the horn deck helps your shadow out but that is only half the fight. Freeps can get beat, and just because your deck is filtered to draw shadow every time doesn't mean your shadow will defeat your opponents fellowship.

 Giving errata to a card not only causes mass confusion but ruins the game in all formats not just the format it causes problems in .

Thats just my , not that it will matter much . Anyway forgive any errors in grammar or spelling, I rarely proof read my longer posts for errors.

[SomeRandomDude]

Yeah, good points, except I don't see Horn/Fiend losing in open any time soon.

Anyways. I think the combo ban is the best idea.

[NappyKorn]

Yeah, good points, except I don't see Horn/Fiend losing in open any time soon.

Anyways. I think the combo ban is the best idea.

Making a combo ban is just another aspect of the game to have to remember. Now was it that New Chapter was x-listed, or did it get errata, and can I play New Chapter in this deck since I have this card in here too. I think making a combo ban list would be just as confusing if not more confusing than just x-listing the card in standard .

[SomeRandomDude]

Anyways, good point on X-listing, but I think that combo bans still remove the broken decks, allow them to be played in formats that thrive on brokeness and don't damage the card pool. Its like, everyone wins.

[NappyKorn]

If you ban a combo though it can't even be played in Open. That is why I think a format ban is a better idea. Unless of course you want to make it even more confusing and have a standard format combo ban list, an expanded combo ban list, a block format combo ban list, and an Open combo ban list. Standard is suppose to be the most even and fair formnat to play so to speak maybe 2nd behind a block format. In Hunters block you can't play all the cards need in the same deck so no since in x-listing the card(S) in there respective block and expanded in full of crazy combos any way. I say instead of adding another level of lists to look at when making a deck just x-list the card from standard play and if it is a card that isn't legal in standard and is coasing problems then x-list it in expanded.

Horn can be played in both standard and expanded, but in expanded you have far more opions to corrupt fast and even more possible combos to swarm and play Cavern Entrance. Both of which would man handle the horn deck. In standard you are far more limited in corruption options and swarm possiblities so (even though I hate x-listing and errata I say at the most give it a standard format x-listing and if you don't want to see the horn deck stay away from expanded and open games .

[SomeRandomDude]

Of course, it'd be a format combo ban list.

Like, banned in standard is this combo. But not in open. Open would have no combo x-list, just the good ol' restricted list.

The problem isn't the horn deck. The problem is a 30 card all shadow deck at site 2. Troll Swarm, Moria Swarm, any other swarm?

[Mc Tono]

I think the game is all about benefiting the advantage of surprise, tech/solid deckbuilding, and anticipation.
All said and done: Lotr-tcg is (and that's why we love the game so much i think) in my humble opinion a bomb-phat-and extremely-complex paper scissors rock game.
Stupid choices by the designers of the game that spoil the fun and change the paper scissors rock idea should always be discussed and then altered. Only one problem: who is responsible for say a new banlist? Decipher isn`t! So i think from now on every little (or huge) Lotr-community will make up their own mind about these matters and so will we from The Friends of the Whitehouse in Holland. Every new tournament we organise has a new or altered ban/restriction/comboban-list. The dude who organises decides.

In this case I`d say one of the following from what I`ve read:

- Ban the combo horns + New Chapter.
- Maybe the horns should only get  followers. Still 9 followers which is at least an automatic double +4 every turn.
- expand the rule of 4 like Gil-Estel suggested. (my personal favorite suggestion and person)
- Banning single cards affects too much other great or normal combo`s I think.

but hey, that`s for everyone to decide.

Maybe another crazy idea for fun: Some kind of horn/standard tournament. Obligatory horn Freeps with more than half the freeps side filled with followers, combined with a "standard"shadowside by choice.

what say you?

[Gate Troll]

A Horn/Standard tourney sounds fascinating but I doubt you could play it anywhere except on SdA.

[SomeRandomDude]

HA! That'd be hilarious. How fast can you butcher horn? LOL!

Well, at least it shuts down the Troll Swarm deck, since Horns can kick Troll Swarm's rear.

Expanding the Rule of 4, though, still allows an auto 4 followers from your deck each turn. Which is pretty nasty. Plus, it hoses the combo in open format.

Errata to nab only followers = 9 followers filtered immediately, pretty nasty still, and its an errata which has all the problem NK and I were talking about. Also hoses open format.

Banning New Chapter is like banning Strange Looking Men. Nobody used it until the Horn was released. But still, you're banning a good card because it interacts badly with another card.

So, in my order of preference...

Combo Ban.
New Chapter Ban.
Leave it alone.
Rule of 4 modification.
Errata.

Look at what errata did to Frenzy of Arrows! We errata-d the card, making Frenzy COMPLETELY unplayable in OPEN. Meaning perhaps the only way to combat the Horn/Fiend deck (a site 2 Frenzy) got eliminated.

[Gate Troll]

What happened to Frenzy of Arrows?

[Thranduil]

What happened to Frenzy of Arrows?

It now reads: "Spot an archer minion" instead of "Spot an minion". I'll let you work out the problem with that yourself!

Thranduil