Dáin's DCs - Mordor's Borders (5/29: End Of The Game...?)

[menace64]

Both cards are fine. Cards can be good and not be 'OH MY PANTS I MUST USE THIS CARD IN EVERY DECK I BUILD!!!". In my opinion, the best cards are cards you must work for to make into true killers. Your Shelob and Gollum are such cards.

Just one thing: You need to alphabetize the keywords on Shelob.

[Elessar's Socks]

•Shelob, Dark Terror of Cirith Ungol
Minion • Spider
Strength: 8
Vitality: 8
Site: 8
Enduring. Damage +1. Fierce. Toil 2. Ambush .
Shelob may not be exerted by other Shadow cards.
Each time Shelob wins a skirmish, you may exert or heal her.
"As for Sauron: he knew where she lurked....So they both lived, delighting in their own devices, and feared no assault, nor wrath, nor any end to their wickedness. Never yet had any fly escaped from Shelob's webs, and the greater now was her rage and hunger."

I've longed to make a solid Shelob that connects to Gollum...but isn't reliant on him, like Shelob, Her Ladyship and Shelob, Menace are. I figured toil was a great way to do this, as it lets you get Shelob cheaper if you have Gollum around (and are willing to exert him); basically, it takes away her normal roaming cost. Of course, the fact that you can't exert Shelob (or Gollum much, if you exerted him to get Shelob cheaply) means that many cards which require some exerting are then out of reach, but the payoff should be worth it, methinks. The fact that she's a perma-damage +1 should help make up for the lack of her other versions' killer text.

Her Ladyship can singlehandedly save Ninja Gollum decks from the terror of Faramir SoD and Eowyn LoI, so if it's a choice between a properly functioning deck and a cool bonus, HL will be around for a while yet. But this is one shock troop I will definitely want to try (strictly better than LCoU, if that's any concern).

The restriction to prevent her from being exerted by Shadow cards is a bit out-of-the-blue, I think. Non-enduring versions of Shelob can already get a +14 bonus at Ettenmoors, but I haven't seen too many (any) decks really capitalizing on that. Cards that can exert her will also have to take into account the other enduring versions, so hopefully they'll already be self-restricting.

•Gollum, Brings Nice Food
Minion
Strength: 5
Vitality: 4
Site: 3
When you play Gollum, you may remove X threats (limit 2) to make his twilight cost -X.
Skirmish: Exert Gollum to make a minion strength +1 (or +2 if skirmishing a Ring-bound companion).
"Gollum withdrew himself, and a green glint flickered under his heavy lids. Almost spider-like he looked now, crouched back on his bent limbs, with his protruding eyes."

And here's the nasty little traitor himself. Combine him with 2 threats and the Shelob above, and under the right circumstances, you can get BOTH for only twilight. Not too shabby, eh? Oh, and then you can give some nice little strength pumps, too. Nasty!

Subtitles for the most part read properly following "is" (though they're not always a noun phrase). Sam is Frodo's gardener. Frodo is weary from the journey. Shelob is a dark terror of Cirith Ungol. Gollum would then be a "Bringer of Nice Food." ("Smeagol, Always Helps" caused a bit of an uproar back in its day. )

I'm very stingy with threats in NG since each one removed is the loss of one or more wounds. It's like a 2-cost archer with text saying "make the minion archery total -X (limit 2) until the regroup phase to make the twilight cost of this minion -X." It's a nice backup though if proper beatdown takes off.

As for his skirmish ability, it's great to see another way to boost Shelob. (Not Easily Avoided is my favorite. )

---

Always wanted to have a proper skirmishing Shelob to get some extra mileage out of Promise Keeping. These are looking good.

[lem0nhead]

But I don't understand why there's a limit on Gollum's twilight reduction. Why would you want to remove more than 2 threats when his minimum twilight cost is anyway?

See? Told you i had a point lol!

[DáinIronfoot]

Both cards are fine. Cards can be good and not be 'OH MY PANTS I MUST USE THIS CARD IN EVERY DECK I BUILD!!!". In my opinion, the best cards are cards you must work for to make into true killers. Your Shelob and Gollum are such cards.

Just what I was going for.

Just one thing: You need to alphabetize the keywords on Shelob.

You know, I realize that's how Decipher did it (with Horror of Harad perhaps being the best example), and I usually try to stick very closely to their patterns like that. But I just don't like the way these keywords look in alphabetical order. I'll switch 'em around, but I still don't like it.

But I don't understand why there's a limit on Gollum's twilight reduction. Why would you want to remove more than 2 threats when his minimum twilight cost is anyway?

See? Told you i had a point lol!

I don't know, I just...wanted to play it safe. I admit I can't find a way to abuse removing more threats than intended, but I can all but guarantee SOMEONE would.

•Shelob, Dark Terror of Cirith Ungol
Minion • Spider
Strength: 8
Vitality: 8
Site: 8
Enduring. Damage +1. Fierce. Toil 2. Ambush .
Shelob may not be exerted by other Shadow cards.
Each time Shelob wins a skirmish, you may exert or heal her.
"As for Sauron: he knew where she lurked....So they both lived, delighting in their own devices, and feared no assault, nor wrath, nor any end to their wickedness. Never yet had any fly escaped from Shelob's webs, and the greater now was her rage and hunger."

I've longed to make a solid Shelob that connects to Gollum...but isn't reliant on him, like Shelob, Her Ladyship and Shelob, Menace are. I figured toil was a great way to do this, as it lets you get Shelob cheaper if you have Gollum around (and are willing to exert him); basically, it takes away her normal roaming cost. Of course, the fact that you can't exert Shelob (or Gollum much, if you exerted him to get Shelob cheaply) means that many cards which require some exerting are then out of reach, but the payoff should be worth it, methinks. The fact that she's a perma-damage +1 should help make up for the lack of her other versions' killer text.

Her Ladyship can singlehandedly save Ninja Gollum decks from the terror of Faramir SoD and Eowyn LoI, so if it's a choice between a properly functioning deck and a cool bonus, HL will be around for a while yet. But this is one shock troop I will definitely want to try (strictly better than LCoU, if that's any concern).

The restriction to prevent her from being exerted by Shadow cards is a bit out-of-the-blue, I think. Non-enduring versions of Shelob can already get a +14 bonus at Ettenmoors, but I haven't seen too many (any) decks really capitalizing on that. Cards that can exert her will also have to take into account the other enduring versions, so hopefully they'll already be self-restricting.

Sooooo...I'm a little confused. You think she's good, or needs some type of tweaking?

•Gollum, Brings Nice Food
Minion
Strength: 5
Vitality: 4
Site: 3
When you play Gollum, you may remove X threats (limit 2) to make his twilight cost -X.
Skirmish: Exert Gollum to make a minion strength +1 (or +2 if skirmishing a Ring-bound companion).
"Gollum withdrew himself, and a green glint flickered under his heavy lids. Almost spider-like he looked now, crouched back on his bent limbs, with his protruding eyes."

And here's the nasty little traitor himself. Combine him with 2 threats and the Shelob above, and under the right circumstances, you can get BOTH for only twilight. Not too shabby, eh? Oh, and then you can give some nice little strength pumps, too. Nasty!

Subtitles for the most part read properly following "is" (though they're not always a noun phrase). Sam is Frodo's gardener. Frodo is weary from the journey. Shelob is a dark terror of Cirith Ungol. Gollum would then be a "Bringer of Nice Food." ("Smeagol, Always Helps" caused a bit of an uproar back in its day. )

I'm very stingy with threats in NG since each one removed is the loss of one or more wounds. It's like a 2-cost archer with text saying "make the minion archery total -X (limit 2) until the regroup phase to make the twilight cost of this minion -X." It's a nice backup though if proper beatdown takes off.

As for his skirmish ability, it's great to see another way to boost Shelob. (Not Easily Avoided is my favorite. )

Always wanted to have a proper skirmishing Shelob to get some extra mileage out of Promise Keeping. These are looking good.

On the subtitle, I know, but I wanted to mix it up a little since there ARE some exceptions (as you pointed out). I like the way this sounds better.

As for the threat cost savings, I wanted it to be flexible. Like you said, it's a nice backup.

And yes, Gollum and Shelob can ALWAYS use a little extra strength pumping.

Sounds like, in general, these are balanced and generally get the thumbs-up. I can rarely make EVERYONE happy, but it seems I've done a decent job here. So...new cards in a sec!

[DáinIronfoot]

Continuing with Shelob and Gollum for now, here are a couple new cards. How about some direct wounding, eh? Enjoy!

Caught In A Web
Event • Response
If a minion or Spider wins a skirmish, add a threat for each wound the losing character takes as a result of losing that skirmish.
"‘Naughty little fly, why does it cry?'"

•Always Hungry
Condition • Support Area
To play, spot a minion.
Shadow: Play a minion to add a threat (or 2 threats if that minion is Shelob).
Skirmish: Discard this condition and remove 2 threats to wound a companion skirmishing a minion (twice if that companion is a Hobbit).
"‘She always needs to feed.'"

[lem0nhead]

Caught In A Web
Event • Skirmish
Spot a minion or Spider that is about to skirmish. If that minion wins that skirmish, add a threat for each wound the losing companion takes.
"‘Naughty little fly, why does it cry?'"

You cant have a phase "about to skirmish" especially as this is a skirmish event so plays once the skirmish has happened or in someones elses. Doesnt work sorry DI. Thought it still works saying just "skirmishing" or "in a skirmish". Then the wording is a little funny at the end but works.

•Always Hungry
Condition • Support Area
To play, spot a minion.
Shadow: Play a minion to add any number of threats equal to or less than that minion's cost (limit 3).
Skirmish: Discard this condition and remove 2 threats to wound a companion skirmishing a minion (twice if that companion is a Hobbit).
"‘She always needs to feed.'"

Erm the first bit is ever so slightly broke. Gollum adds 2 threats for free or shelob adds 3? Hmm tone down. As to the second bit thats the opposite; UP. Change to 1 threat.

[Thranduil]

Caught In A Web
Event • Skirmish
Spot a minion or Spider that is about to skirmish. If that minion wins that skirmish, add a threat for each wound the losing companion takes.
"‘Naughty little fly, why does it cry?'"

I'm not sure I understand what this card is supposed to do. What does 'about to skirmish' mean? Should it not be a response event with the text: 'If a minion or Spider wins a skirmish, add a threat for each wound the losing character takes as a result of that skirmish' and even then I'm not sure quite what it means exactly. Does it include wounding not as a result of losing? I think a better or clearer wording might be: '... add a threat for each wound the losing character took during that skirmish.' though that might be different to what you intended.

•Always Hungry
Condition • Support Area
To play, spot a minion.
Shadow: Play a minion to add any number of threats equal to or less than that minion's cost (limit 3).
Skirmish: Discard this condition and remove 2 threats to wound a companion skirmishing a minion (twice if that companion is a Hobbit).
"‘She always needs to feed.'"

First ability seems too good (even with the limit) and I'd like to see it work without any limit at all. If you only have 2 minions, you could easily change that to: 'Play Gollum to add a threat or play Shelob to add 2/3 threats', for example. The wounding text is fine though.

Thranduil

[DáinIronfoot]

Okay, yeah...I was a little drunk or something when I made those. (Kidding, kidding! ) Tweaked 'em both. Good now?

[lem0nhead]

Better but still dont see why you need 2 threats to do 1 wound normally, it would be less useless at 1 threat.

[Thranduil]

I'm still not clear what the first card does. What did you intend?

Thranduil

[DáinIronfoot]

Better but still dont see why you need 2 threats to do 1 wound normally, it would be less useless at 1 threat.

Yes, but potentially 2 wounds for just 1 threat seems excessive, especially considering the other direct exerting/wounding the culture has at its disposal. Still...hmmm, I'll consider it, but I'd rather wait on another reviewer or two to see if they concur.

I'm still not clear what the first card does. What did you intend?

I thought it was pretty clear now. It adds one threat for each wound the losing companion takes when they lose that skirmish. So normally it will just be 1, but with, say, my damage +1 Shelob, it would be 2. Do I need to change the wording somehow?

[lem0nhead]

I think the wording is fine i cant see what there is to misunderstand.

And Di you only get 2 wounds if its a hobbit. most of the time its 2 threats for 1 wound and discard of a condition also. Meh maybe its ok, no biggie.

[Thranduil]

I think Always Hungry is fine, but Caught in a Web is really not clear. 'Each wound that companion takes' could easily be referring to each wound they take during the whole skirmish, not just from losing it. Also, what happens if the character that lost isn't a companion but an ally?

I think it would be clearest as: '... for each wound that character takes as a result of losing that skirmish'.

Thranduil

[lem0nhead]

Oooooorrrr... Add X threats where X is the number of wounds taken from losing the skirmish?

[DáinIronfoot]

Blarg. How did such a simple card turn so complicated...? :-\

I'm going with Thran's wording. Leaves nothing to the imagination.