Movie block vs Shadows and beyond

[ket_the_jet]

Yeah he is. There really isn't a Witch-King (in Movie Block) worth using except maybe Lord of the Nazgul in a specific deck...

But let's face it. Ulaire Attea and Ulaire Toldea should each be at least.

Edit: Morgul King has pretty nice text too.
-wtk

[jdizzy001]

You know, the shadow creep never bothered me.  However, Fellowship always bugged me.  The built-in weapons provided by stronger minions made it easier to build a shadow deck without weighing them down with meaningless weapons.  Now, I'm refering to strictly str.  Once you add in the weight of their text, then it is a whole different ball game.  Anyways, the point I'm trying to make, is that fellowship power creep resulted in minion power creep. 

[ket_the_jet]

Well, I think that minion weapons are part of the game too. There wasn't any Nazgul creep and it does bother me. The Witch-King should be strength 20 (see, Seige Troop) with competitive game text.
-wtk

[ket_the_jet]

Most Shadow decks don't run pumps of weapons, at least in Movie Block. A few Fell Beast or Mumak, every once in a while. But really, I can't think of the last time I've seen a Shadow pump.
-wtk

[Kralik]

Raider Bow, Raider Halberd, Easterling Polearm, Broad-Bladed Sword, Gothmog's Warg... to name a few of the more common ones.

[Alazzar]

Raider Bow, Raider Halberd, Easterling Polearm, Broad-Bladed Sword, Gothmog's Warg... to name a few of the more common ones.

Well, I think the point people were making is that players rarely include weapons just to get minion strength up -- after all, this part of the discussion all stemmed from JDizzy saying that he liked how Shadow escalation meant he didn't have to keep including meaningless weapons in his deck to keep his minions strong.

Pretty much every weapon you listed is actually used more for its text/special ability than the strength it provides (the exception being Gothmog's Warg).  Raider Bow is used for the ambush, Halberd is used for twilight and/or to exhaust Castamir, Easterling Polearm is for wound immunity, as is Broad-bladed Sword.

And there are more examples of this as well.  Look at Goblin Scimitars and War Clubs.  Would people use Scimitars if they didn't draw cards and if Goblin Armory didn't exist?  Let's pretend that you can't get twilight or a card-draw from playing a Scimitar, but instead of +2 strength for 0 twilight it's a +4.  I think you wouldn't see it in many swarm decks, even with that strength boost, because people would just as soon use the slot on another minion.  And if War Clubs didn't discard possessions, well... what would be the point?

Don't get me wrong, strength boost at no twilight cost is great, but it's not enough, I feel.  If you made a list of Shadow weapons that people use and Shadow weapons that have never seen the inside of a decklist, I think you'll find a common trend -- the weapons that don't get used are the ones without a cool ability.

Of course, you could say that Evil Men decks using Countless Companies and The Mouth of Sauron use weapons that only provide a strength boost, but the difference there is that there's a built-in mechanic that allows those possessions to be replayed without costing card slots in your hand.  So, once again, having a "cool feature" is what makes the possessions work.

[Kralik]

Good analysis, Alazzar.

BTW, I use Gothmog's Warg for it's vitality not the strength (Mordor Brute + Orc Hunters + Gothmog's Warg).

There are still some common events that are used as pumps, such as Wind That Sped Ships. But, event pumps are not very common in general.

[ket_the_jet]

Alazzar is right. Take away half of the game text of Easterling Polearm (either half, even) and it is not going to see as much play. Of course, the two burdens part is the best part...

The draw with Goblin Scimitar is nice and even without Goblin Armory I would probably run four (if not at least two).
-wtk

[Alazzar]

There are still some common events that are used as pumps, such as Wind That Sped Ships. But, event pumps are not very common in general.

Well, pumps at least bring with them a surprise factor.  The problem with a weapon is that the opponent gets to see what it's going to be adding right away (though, in some cases, even seeing everything that's going to happen won't save the Free Peoples player -- Castamir and a Raider Halberd comes to mind as a good example  =P).  While it's true that pumps aren't all that popular on the Shadow side, the times they do get used are because they're somehow better than the average pump.

Wind That Sped Ships, for example:  +6 is a huge amount for one twilight, and part of why it works is because Corsairs are already large.  This event allows them to get surprise overwhelms.  If the limit were, say, +3 (or maybe even +4), you probably wouldn't see it nearly as often.  You probably also wouldn't see it if Corsairs didn't have a few huge minions to begin with.

And look at Savagery to Match Their Numbers, back in Fellowship:  that was included in decks because it could basically guarantee 4 wounds (two wounds from the Uruk winning the first skirmish, two more for the fierce).  Whirling Strike is also great for surprise kills in Raider decks.

Yet pumps that just give a basic +2 (or +3 under a certain condition) aren't too common.  Why?

Because, once again, the same theme seen in possessions reappears with events:  you need something more than just getting bonus strength.  You need something that warrants the card slot over a condition that will have a continuous/repeated effect or a minion. 

The only culture I can think of off-hand that will use a fairly basic, not-too-huge pump is Dunland using Burn Every Village.  And the whole reason behind that is because playing against Dunland is a very "no-room-for-error" experience -- if you can keep them from controlling sites, you win.  If they grab sites, there's a good chance you'll lose.  Having that surprise pump in a Dunland deck is nice because so much of their victory chance can hinge on just winning a skirmish at the right time.

[Kralik]

The only culture I can think of off-hand that will use a fairly basic, not-too-huge pump is Dunland using Burn Every Village.  And the whole reason behind that is because playing against Dunland is a very "no-room-for-error" experience -- if you can keep them from controlling sites, you win.  If they grab sites, there's a good chance you'll lose.  Having that surprise pump in a Dunland deck is nice because so much of their victory chance can hinge on just winning a skirmish at the right time.

Use it with Freca for +4.

On the topic of weapons... don't all weapons basically have some other perk that makes them worth playing?

[Alazzar]

Iron Axe, Vile Blade, Orc Scimitar, Besieging Pike, Uruk Axe ... there's a reason you don't see stuff like this played much.  =P

But the point is, if you look at the weapons that never get used, the strength boost isn't what keeps them from seeing play -- it's their crappy "perks."  This just goes to show that the strength boost is really just an added bonus in addition to whatever perk the weapon has.  The perk is the important part!

[jdizzy001]

agreed.  In fact, you could argue that if the str bonus was removed from these weapons they would still see play.  The weapons with perks i mean

[Kralik]

I can see how Besieging Pike could be used in initiative decks... but probably not worth the card space.

Howver, I personally do use Vile Blade in FotR block, since Men and Elves are very common. Not otherwise though. Vile Blade + Orc Swordsman gives a strength 15 minion vs. those races.

[ket_the_jet]

Orc Swordsman is a personal favorite of mine.
-wtk

[jdizzy001]

Orc Swordsman is a personal favorite of mine.
-wtk

mine too. I love the expression on his face, and with the vile blade... OH YEAH