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Author Topic: Public Healthcare  (Read 2669 times)

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October 16, 2009, 04:29:40 PM
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TheJord

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Public Healthcare
« on: October 16, 2009, 04:29:40 PM »
I know this particular topic is being debated in the US at the moment, and I am studying Welfare Economics so I was looking for some views from some Americans on public healthcare.

I should add that I am looking for non-normative views, which means I dont want "It's evil" because I could so "It isn't evil" until time ends. I need to understand why you dont see public healthcare as a efficient, productive or pleasant way to spend your tax dollars.
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October 16, 2009, 04:43:59 PM
Reply #1

jdizzy001

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Re: Public Healthcare
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2009, 04:43:59 PM »
Personally, I believe the problem should be solved in the market, not by government.  I think healthcare providers should offer up front pricing which would allow the consumer to choose where they go for healthcare.  Following normal capitalist trends, most folks would choose the least expensive form of care and this would cause other providers to lower their costs, or go out of business.  It's the way of capitalism.  I also think we should do away with minimum wage, but that is another topic altogether.
*All posts made by jdizzy001, regardless of the thread in which they appear, are expressions of his own opinion and as such are not representative of views shared by any third party unless expressly acknowledged as such by said party.

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October 16, 2009, 04:54:22 PM
Reply #2

turin08

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Re: Public Healthcare
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2009, 04:54:22 PM »
I quite like not getting sucked of all my money every time I break a bone or get ill.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2009, 03:26:27 AM by turin08 »

October 16, 2009, 05:41:51 PM
Reply #3

Not a Zombie

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Re: Public Healthcare
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2009, 05:41:51 PM »
So you would prefer it was sucked out before hand for someone elses bone?
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I'm imploring people I've never met to pressure a government with better things to do to punish a man who meant no harm for something nobody even saw, thats what I'm doing!

October 16, 2009, 09:31:58 PM
Reply #4

Treebeard13

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Re: Public Healthcare
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2009, 09:31:58 PM »
I'll have to sadly admit that I've not really looked into this as much as I should have - I guess I'm being the typical American that so infuriates me.  Too lazy to really look into an issue but all too ready to express an opinion.

As far as upfront shopping - most health plans that I've been covered by don't let you pick and choose alot - unless it's an emergency.  It is true that the insurance firms involved in Health Care are some of the most profitable companies in the U.S. 

I do hear a lot about how the government will mess it up and yet Medicare is generally well received.  In some of the debates elderly have expressed concern over taking Medicare away from them.

I think a lot of the debates seem to center on the two main modes for swaying the American public at large.  You either convince them that they will have to pay an unfair burden because others are lazy or incompetent.  Or you convince a group that they will be singled out and the benefits they now receive will be greatly reduced or tremendously more expensive.  You generally don't need to supply any facts.

You hear the opponents tell horror stories about how bad health care is in countries like Canada, England and France and then you'll see a documentary like Michael Moore's show the opposite.  It would be interesting to hear from some of our non-American members.

I guess I view any Health Care Reform as only half the issue.  The other issue is the American life style which has to put an increased financial strain on the system.  Everyone's cost would drop quite a bit if American's adopted a more reasonable life style.

There is also the present situation where you have large employers (Wal Mart) that offer poor coverage, their employees pay a much higher percentage of the premium than most other work places and the coverage itself is said to resemble much of what they sell.  Cheap and crappy.  Wal Mart supposedly has one of the lowest percentage of full time employees with health care.  You can save a few pennies by shopping there but the employees suffer from the display of 'capitalism'.  If you have to compete against companies like this you have to be tempted to follow suit. 

Sorry for the rambling.
Chuck


"...it takes a very long time to say anything in it, because we do not say anything in it, unless it is worth taking a long time to say.."    Treebeard

October 16, 2009, 10:47:44 PM
Reply #5

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Re: Public Healthcare
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2009, 10:47:44 PM »
So lets get heathcare out of the employers hands and put it into the consumers. Most people are generally happy with car insurance, which they buy and finance themselves. Why should they not be able to do the same with health insurance?
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I'm imploring people I've never met to pressure a government with better things to do to punish a man who meant no harm for something nobody even saw, thats what I'm doing!

October 17, 2009, 01:21:13 AM
Reply #6

Gil-Estel

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Re: Public Healthcare
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2009, 01:21:13 AM »
We in the Netherlands do have public healthcare. That said it also must bu mentioned that our society is radically different than yours. We too are a capitalistic country, but for most Americans we will be considered as a communistic state. I.e. government is all over the place :) I will try to explain how that came. Don't feel like a history lesson, skip to the end....

In our history we see a certain development. Mid 19Th century we still had a king, but all over Europe things got wild. In order for the people to stay calm he offered to withdraw his powers for 'real' democracy. Liberal party became most powerful, but was run by the leaders of capitalism. When the Industrialization hit us late 19Th century -we were late, didn't really need it earlier- the situation of the poor became increasingly sad. Government was run by those who also ran industry and they were only about growing money, and becoming more rich. Not only did they pay low wages, also the workhours were awful (14-16 hours a day average), the working circumstances were ridiculously dangerous and everyone, even children age 6 had to help in the factories.
No one was able to do anything about this. No one cared for them cause we didn't have strong institutions to deal with it. Sure, the church would provide some help, but they didn't get political. The only people with the right to vote, were young man, that payed a certain amount of tax. That had to be rich people, hence people with well payed jobs IE, leaders of capitalism. So for years and years nothing happened.
In that time certain people rose against that. You had socialist people, christian people each with their own agenda. Socialist wanted equal rights for the poor, and they wanted the workers being able to also vote, that way being able to make altering in government. Christian parties wanted their schools to be payed by government also and they started to work together in order to get what they want. Due to pressure from society, like strikes done by the socialists, and huge political gatherings by the Christians, things changed. In 1917 everyone got the right to vote, well the men at least, 2 years later followed by women.
The changes made were obvious -in the eyes of the Dutch. Labor got protection from the government against the bosses they exploited their people. 8 hours work a day, minimum wage, some form of public healthcare etc.

After World War II the Netherlands had trouble getting back at their feet. We are a small country, and our economy is based on the service sector. Knowledge economy so you will. We got a lot of Marshall aid with which we were supposed to raise once again from the ashes. Well, what is the number 1 debit post on any company's balance? Wages. So government and companies made an agreement with the people. We will not raise the wages for years to come, in order for us to achieve some growth. In exchange for that they offered more social security. If you lose your job you get welfare, if you reach the age of 65, or have been employed for 40 years, you get welfare etc etc. We truly became a welfare state, but we chose it. That is important to notice. To pay all this we pay taxes, a lot of taxes. We pay taxes over the stuff we buy, over our wages, to drive our cars, etc etc. This to pay for the state we live in. It is built after the principle: we take care for eachother. History taught us that uncontrolled capitalism leads to the exploitation of men. Taught us, so I'm not saying that is will do everywhere (allthough my personal opinion is that it will)

End of history lesson.

Nowadays there are a lot of thing debates due to the crisis. Our society gets older, so the costs rise. We need to find money somehow to get it all payed. I can imagine that is odd in the eyes of some, cause it is troubling recovery from the crisis. On the other hand we all have benefits. We are secured of a base income, even without a job. Don't think that is fun, being unemployed even with the money, cause it is the absolute minimum, and you are obliged, in return of the welfare to take up any job you can.
We are secured of healthcare. The wife of a colleague of mine fell from the stairs and she has got weird complains. She is lying in a hospital, a good one, for over a week now. She's getting all kinds of scans, and she is likely to stay there for at least 2 more weeks. It will not cost her a thing.
The age at which you can quite working rose to 67 this week. Of course you can quite earlier, but then you have to pay for it yourself. Have you been successful, you can. Did you have normal wage, it is likely you are going to work till 67. After that you can retire, and you are 'rewarded' for what you have contributed to society.

I think capitalistic mechanism are not a good thing when it comes to healthcare. There should be no price on being healthy. Anyone should have the right being healthy without being ripped off. I know that it is debatable. But I dislike the growing power of insurance companies as much as I dislike the growing power of banks...still. I don't like it when people have to depend of things with as a maingoal to make the most money possible. Well.....I'll leave it to that. Hope that some one took the effort of reading, :)

EDIT:
Wow, made almost no mistakes in writing English :)
..."Elves seldom give unguarded advice, for advice is a dangerous gift, even from the wise to the wise, and all courses may run ill"...

October 17, 2009, 03:31:45 AM
Reply #7

turin08

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Re: Public Healthcare
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2009, 03:31:45 AM »
My Dad has lived half his life in the States and half in England and he says he prefers the English system. He said that if you get really lucky and nothing bad befalls yourself or your family then the English system would lose you money and would be bad for you. But on the other hand if anything did happen, especially anything that required any long term care or rehabilitation or frequent hospital trips the English system saves you A LOT more money.

October 17, 2009, 05:44:56 AM
Reply #8

Treebeard13

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Re: Public Healthcare
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2009, 05:44:56 AM »
So lets get heathcare out of the employers hands and put it into the consumers. Most people are generally happy with car insurance, which they buy and finance themselves. Why should they not be able to do the same with health insurance?

Personally I don't think I would have a big problem with this if employers gave you the money in salary that they now spend on health care.  However, how would this prevent the big problem that now exists - millions without any coverage?  There are many drivers out there without insurance.  Also, I wouldn't say that most people are happy with their car insurance - it's just a necessary item.  Everytime you put in a claim you are at risk for your premiums going up.  Based on the auto insurance model the elderly would pay a lot more since they are at greatest risk for claims - opposite of the actual auto insurance model where the young pay the most.  I suppose one good thing that would come out of it would be that Americans might strive for a more healthy life style since this should lead to lower premiums.
"...it takes a very long time to say anything in it, because we do not say anything in it, unless it is worth taking a long time to say.."    Treebeard

October 17, 2009, 06:13:51 AM
Reply #9

Treebeard13

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Re: Public Healthcare
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2009, 06:13:51 AM »
Thank you Gil-Estel and turin08.  Yes Gil-Estel I did read your whole post - since you were kind enough to write it.  I never comment on the writings of someone who is writing in a Language that is not their primary language - since I'm American.  The joke is:  What do you call someone who can speak three languages - trilingual.  What do you call someone who can speak two languages - blingual.  What do you call someone who can only speak one language - an American.

It's kind of interesting the paths that different countries take.  The U.S. went through a similar time in history when there was a larger gap between upper and the lower classes.  Lower class people worked very long hours and very young people worked in terrible conditions.  I'm not a big fan of labor unions but still, at the expense of possibly being labelled a liberal, you have to admit they played a very possitive role in changing the situation in the U.S.  There is evidence that we are again widening the gap between the vey wealthy and the rest of society.  Since 1980 the top 1% has increased it's share of the total wealth from about 10% to close to 25%.  CEO's used to make about 35 times the average salary of their employees and now they are about 300 times.  Middle class wages, when accounting for inflation are relatively flat.

It's obvious that there is no utopian answer out there. 

Chuck



"...it takes a very long time to say anything in it, because we do not say anything in it, unless it is worth taking a long time to say.."    Treebeard

October 17, 2009, 02:05:17 PM
Reply #10

TheJord

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Re: Public Healthcare
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2009, 02:05:17 PM »
I'm interested how public healthcare could (or could not) be aiming towards Pareto optimilaty, which is making people better off without making others worse off.
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October 18, 2009, 07:52:15 PM
Reply #11

jdizzy001

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Re: Public Healthcare
« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2009, 07:52:15 PM »
I like the idea of taking the coverage out of businesses and allowing americans the power to choose their own coverage and not rely on an employer.  However, I don't think a government should mandate that one must purchase insurance coverage.  Yes, that means I wouldn't have car insurance if it wasn't required by law.  A government has 3 jobs, build roads, maintain an army and print currency.  I think it should be up to the people to take care of the rest.  The first hospital in Philidelphia was founded by a people's initiative started by Ben Franklin.  This hospital was maintained by donations and was free to attend for everyone.  No one paid to use this hospital.  The best part is, it was maintained by the people and for the people.  No government involvement.  Ben Franklin also invented the concept of insurance companies.
*All posts made by jdizzy001, regardless of the thread in which they appear, are expressions of his own opinion and as such are not representative of views shared by any third party unless expressly acknowledged as such by said party.

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October 19, 2009, 08:20:09 AM
Reply #12

turin08

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Re: Public Healthcare
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2009, 08:20:09 AM »
A government has 3 jobs, build roads, maintain an army and print currency.  I think it should be up to the people to take care of the rest. 
Mate thats incredibly naive. A country like that would be in a state of total anarchy and chaos. Such an idea forgets that people are selfish/stupid/evil or just plain disagree over most things.

October 19, 2009, 09:54:10 AM
Reply #13

Gate Troll

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Re: Public Healthcare
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2009, 09:54:10 AM »
A government has 3 jobs, build roads, maintain an army and print currency.  I think it should be up to the people to take care of the rest.  
Mate thats incredibly naive. A country like that would be in a state of total anarchy and chaos. Such an idea forgets that people are selfish/stupid/evil or just plain disagree over most things.

I think he means the federal government. All the rest should be left to the state governments. ;)
We don't want anarchy, we just want more power in the hands of the states.

October 20, 2009, 06:08:54 PM
Reply #14

turin08

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Re: Public Healthcare
« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2009, 06:08:54 PM »
Oh well then i guess that makes sense.