New Balrog

[sharkey]

18 Twilight

The Balrog, Nameless Fear

Vitality: 1
Strength: 14

May only be played from your discard pile by a card.
The Balrog is Damage +1, Strength +1, and Vitality +1 for each companion you can spot.
Skirmish: Exert the Balrog three times and spot 3 companions to make him participate in an additional Assignment and Skirmish phase.
Regroup: If the fellowship moves on, spot only one companion to discard the Balrog to exhaust a companion.

Yes, it's pretty ridiculous. The play from your discard pile text is my idea of cultural reinforcement, and a way of making it hard to play. Certain sites and card prevent cards from being played from draw decks or discard piles, so it's harder to play. You also have to have the right cards, like Foul Things. It's a good fellowship size control, but not much to worry about actually, becuase you either have companions to spare, and he kills them, or you don't, and he doesn't matter too much. Final stats with 9 companions: 12 Vitality, 26 strength, damage +9, and can fight in... 12 skirmishes!

[ket_the_jet]

I don't find him flavorful for a few reasons.

One: Why would the Balrog be stronger or weaker based on the number or companions?

Two: The Assignment stuff is completely broken.

Three: the discard pile line isn't cultural enforcement anyways. Outside of FoTR Nertea, who would be able to play him from the discard pile besides Foul Things?

Four: Undercost. He would cost 25+ for what you are paying for (essentially unlimited skirmish phases) with stats that can be stronger than Sauron.

Five: I don't like doing math with my cards. Figuring out what vitality, strength, etc., he is constantly would piss me off.

Six: if he killed companions after exerting for extra skirmishes, eventually he would die himself.

Just some thoughts.
-wtk

[sharkey]

One: Fixed. Balrog could be stronger or weaker because more people = move slower. It almost cought them at the stairs because they were so slow. Just Frodo would have been fine.

Two: What part?

Three: This is why he has a low twilight cost... it's very hard to play him.

Four: See three.

Five: I do. And stop arguing with preferences. Plus, this really isn't a "not flavorful" reason.

Six: A good limit to his power, and a gameplay challenge for deciding if the fellowship is going to move on, what could stop them, how much vitality you want to keep, etc. Plus, he can be exerted and wounded by things like archers and, Baruk Khazad, and Rohan Mounts.

[ket_the_jet]

I don't see that Balrog as being difficult to play. Have four copies in a deck. You are really only going to get the chance to play him four times max anyways considering twilight costs. I am just saying, for a character that is more powerful than Sauron (still), he should be cost-reflective.

You are always going to have one companion. So he is at least 16, 4, damage +1. Likely, you will have five (if you are avoiding Shotgun Enquea, Greed, others...) so he'd be strength 20, vitality 8, damage +5 with the possibility to kill three companions (instead of two which the best Balrog can do). The idea of an extra skirmish phase and assignment phase is too repeatable. If you want him to have infinite assignment and skirmish phases, remove the Fierce part, but I still am not a fan.

And moving fast doesn't mean #$&*@! once the Balrog is there. If he fought 100 Goblins, he would be just as strong as 10 men as one Wizard. There is no other card that allows additional assignment and skirmish phases (except for a few that work outside of the assignment or skirmish phase--A Dark Shape Sprang, for example). Having a strength 10000 minion have multiple skirmishes beyond fierce is broken.

I argued with one preference. That is a common complaint across trading card games, not just Lord of the Rings. Point is, he is overpowered and undercost. His twilight cost should be pushing 30 to have as many skirmishes as he can have.

And also, the first line is unnecessary. That doesn't culturally enforce because you can play him with any minions. If it said, "To play, spot an or minion" then it would have cultural enforcement because you would have to spot a cultured minion to play it.
-wtk

[sharkey]

Made him not fierce, 2 more twilight, and has to exert 3 times for the additional skirmish.

Oh, and The Witch-king's Beast, Fell Creature...

[Kralik]

It's a good fellowship size control, but not much to worry about actually, becuase you either have companions to spare, and he kills them, or you don't, and he doesn't matter too much.

If I had 4 companions, he could fight twice and be damage+4. Certainly that wouldn't be a case where I have "companions to spare." Of course it depends on the Freeps, but I'm not often going to be able to beat a str 19 vitality 7 minion. As for the twilight cost... it's not all that high when you consider what can do.

Agree with ket, this guy is a bit ridiculous.

[sharkey]

Now he's slightly less powerful.

[ket_the_jet]

•The Balrog, Nameless Fear
Minion • Balrog
Strength 17
Vitality 5
Site 4
Fierce.
When you play the Balrog, the free people's player may discard a Wizard to discard this minion.
The Balrog is damage +X, where X is the number of companions over three you can spot.

I think that may be more along the lines of what you are going for and it is much more balanced.
-wtk

[sharkey]

That could work.

[Thranduil]

I like your ideas, especially the Balrog fighting multiple times. How about something like:

•The Balrog, Nameless Fear
Minion • Balrog
Str: 17
Vit: 5
Sit: 4
Fierce.
While you can spot 6 companions, The Balrog is damage +1.
If the fellowship is at an underground site, after all skirmishes and fierce skirmishes have been resolved, you may exert The Balrog twice to make him participate in one additional assignment and skirmish phase.

This way he hurts high companion fellowships much more, can fight 3 times and uses an already established template to do so (ie. The Witch-King's Beast).

[sharkey]

14 twilight, and for each companion over 6, the balrog is damage +1?

I like it. I like the subtitle

[chompers]

How about this for cultural reinforcement, not sure about wording or balance:

When you play the Balrog, discard X minions to reduce the Balrog's cost by 3 for each minion discarded.

[ket_the_jet]

When you play the Balrog, discard X minions to reduce the Balrog's cost by 3 for each minion discarded.

3 per minion is far too much.

Also, I think you all are missing the what cultural enforcement is. Cultural enforcement is the concept of preventing a card's use unless other cards of that culture are in play or in the deck. An example would be Shelob, Her Ladyship. Because you have to spot Gollum to get the badass ability, that prevents her paralyzing effect from being splashed into any deck.

Another example would be The Balrog, Flame of Udun. It is a simple "To play, spot a Orc" that makes sure that he doesn't end up in any deck...just the ones that use Orcs."
-wtk

[chompers]

Ah - but what if the Balrog was overcosted - so the expectation is that you would use the gametext? Say - I don't know 24 for something.

Bear in mind the cost of a cheap minion is 1 or 2 (without all the tricks). 3 seems to balance it out (except for all the tricks). You have to gain something from discarding your overwhelm.

Also - an Enduri9ng Balrog would be cool (or has that already been done in the later sets?)

[sharkey]

Maybe that could be added, as it has not been done. However, it is rare for a balrog to take wounds. This one could, since it does not skip the archery and manuever phases.