Final Triumph and Coat of Mail

[TelTura]

If you read the notes, you would have noticed that it said none of the cards that previously had an effect on strength during a skirmish have any effect on a skirmish in which this card is played.

you'll also note that CoM and other similar actions don't have an effect on strength, rather, they have an effect that is based on strength.  There's a significant difference between the two.  The resolution, it seems to me (but I admit I need to look a little closer for the "official" meaning) is where both players pass and it is determined that one side wins and the other loses.  It would then be determined the number of wounds to place, or, if one side overwhelms the other.  The resolution is not hindered, the only question is whether wounds or overwhelming are the penalty, and unless the strength proper is tripled, I'd think only wounds could be placed.

[TheJord]

The functionality of Coat of Mail is to prevent overwhelms against double strength. Final Triumph overrides this functionality.

[Elessar's Socks]

This is one case where I'd really like to know what the designer intended, not least being what "to resolve that skirmish" covers. Several parts fall under this heading in the rulebook: determining the skirmish winner, determining whether losing characters are overwhelmed, placing wounds, and resolving all actions triggered by winning or losing the skirmish.

My take is to treat a character as using a resolution attribute when resolving a skirmish, the default of which is strength, and then for the rulebook to compare the values of these attributes:

"If the total [resolution value] of one side is more than the [resolution value] of the other side (but less than double), the side with the most [resolution value] wins that skirmish.

If the total [resolution value] of one side is at least double the total [resolution value] of the other side, all the characters on the losing side are overwhelmed and killed (regardless of how many wounds or how much vitality each has)."

Essentially this defines what a card means when it says to resolve a skirmish using a new attribute.

I'd treat Coat of Mail then as tacking on new check to the skirmish resolution, meaning in the situation with Final Triumph, its bearer cannot be overwhelmed unless both his strength is tripled and his vitality is doubled.

IMO the CRD entry on Final Triumph seems to be going overboard on the resolution--it'd knock out a CoM clone using vitality, since this clone would neither increase nor decrease vitality directly--but I'm not sure about its scope, as has been previously brought up.

[simplegarak]

The functionality of Coat of Mail is to prevent overwhelms against double strength. Final Triumph overrides this functionality.

This is what I've been trying to warn people about in the DC threads... functionality and intent aren't really important, the way things are phrased is important.

Let's forget Coat of Mail, let's look at one of my all time favorite cards:
Boromir, Lord of Gondor

His text is:
Boromir is not overwhelmed unless his strength is tripled.

How would Final Triumph work here?

Well vitality resolves the skirmish.
If victor's vit was double Boromir's, would he be overwhelmed?

The ruling on FT says:

The effect of this card changes the requirements
for resolving a skirmish. As a result, none of the
cards that previously had an effect on strength
during a skirmish have any effect on a skirmish
in which this card is played. Only cards or effects
that increase or decrease vitality directly would
alter the resolution of a skirmish in which this
card was played.

However, Boromir's text does not have any effect on strength or skirmish resolution.  He just says 1 thing: "Cannot be overwhelmed" If there was any sort of way to overwhelm a companion outside of a skirmish phase, he would still be immune to it.  He doesn't have any effect on skirmish resolution, he just has a "can't" effect (which I recall, always overrides can).

So it'd work like this:

Final Triumph is played.
Vitality resolves skirmish - Uruk has 4 to Boromir's 2.
Skirmish resolution, take passage from the rule book and replace every instance of "strength" with "vitality" for determining.
According to rules, Boromir is overwhelmed.
Boromir's text prevents overwhelming unless his strength is tripled.
Uruk does not triple Boromir's strength, Boromir is not overwhelmed.

EDIT: I meant to add, Final Triumph is specified to NOT suddenly apply strength bonuses etc to vitality.  So if you play a Dagger Strike in the example above after Final Triumph, you're not suddenly going to give Boromir +2 vitality.  If those cards do not transfer from one stat to another, why would any other card do so?

[Smeagollum]

The functionality of Coat of Mail is to prevent overwhelms against double strength. Final Triumph overrides this functionality.

This is what I've been trying to warn people about in the DC threads... functionality and intent aren't really important, the way things are phrased is important.

Let's forget Coat of Mail, let's look at one of my all time favorite cards:
Boromir, Lord of Gondor

His text is:
Boromir is not overwhelmed unless his strength is tripled.

How would Final Triumph work here?

Well vitality resolves the skirmish.
If victor's vit was double Boromir's, would he be overwhelmed?

The ruling on FT says:

The effect of this card changes the requirements
for resolving a skirmish. As a result, none of the
cards that previously had an effect on strength
during a skirmish have any effect on a skirmish
in which this card is played. Only cards or effects
that increase or decrease vitality directly would
alter the resolution of a skirmish in which this
card was played.

However, Boromir's text does not have any effect on strength or skirmish resolution.  He just says 1 thing: "Cannot be overwhelmed" If there was any sort of way to overwhelm a companion outside of a skirmish phase, he would still be immune to it.  He doesn't have any effect on skirmish resolution, he just has a "can't" effect (which I recall, always overrides can).

So it'd work like this:

Final Triumph is played.
Vitality resolves skirmish - Uruk has 4 to Boromir's 2.
Skirmish resolution, take passage from the rule book and replace every instance of "strength" with "vitality" for determining.
According to rules, Boromir is overwhelmed.
Boromir's text prevents overwhelming unless his strength is tripled.
Uruk does not triple Boromir's strength, Boromir is not overwhelmed.

EDIT: I meant to add, Final Triumph is specified to NOT suddenly apply strength bonuses etc to vitality.  So if you play a Dagger Strike in the example above after Final Triumph, you're not suddenly going to give Boromir +2 vitality.  If those cards do not transfer from one stat to another, why would any other card do so?

Exactly!
But how would this work for:

Bounder
Severed his bonds (in case people play with tt-sites)

[simplegarak]

Exactly!
But how would this work for:

Bounder
Severed his bonds (in case people play with tt-sites)

(I could swear there was a topic addressing this on Decipher briefly)
I'd say it'd work the same.

Final Triumph - double vitality == overwhelm.
Those cards say, "prevent overwhelming" with a condition.  So you'd have to fulfill that condition.

Think of it this way.  Normally the conditions are: twice strength overwhelm, this is intrinsic to the rules.  All these cards say, "no, you can't overwhelm unless ___".  Now usually, the ___ just happens to coincide with the same conditions that are intrinsic to the game but that doesn't change the fact that they create a new 'can't' which must be overcome.

Let's propose a hypothetical.  Shadow player plays a card, "Overwhelm companion skirmishing {something} minion who's resistance is 0."  This creates a new way to overwhelm a companion.  However, Boromir, Bounder, etc specifically say "cannot" or "prevent" overwhelming unless ___.  Since can't always overrides can, the new card would have no effect unless you overcame the "can't" cards.

[TheJord]

I cant agree with this. Coat of Mail provides protection from the intrinsic overwhelm. Final Triumph overrides that intrinsic rule by nullifying strength.

[simplegarak]

I cant agree with this. Coat of Mail provides protection from the intrinsic overwhelm. Final Triumph overrides that intrinsic rule by nullifying strength.

Incorrect, Coat of Mail, Boromir, et al provide protection from overwhelming PERIOD as phrased.

As I said, if we had a hypothetical card that explicit said, "overwhelm companion if {condition}", these cards would over ride those because they say plainly: "cannot overwhelm".

EDIT: I should add, if you and your pals want to play the cards as "bearer cannot be overwhelmed unless the value used to determine the skirmish of the victor is twice the value used by the loser is triple."  Great, all well and good.  But otherwise, as the cards are phrased, can't overrides can.

[legolas3333]

you know what the funny thing is? the only situation you would ever see this in is Expanded and who plays final triumph in expanded??? it's all Madril Rangers and Demoralized

[TheJord]

True, this is another Helpless on RB Sam situation.

[Witchkingx5]

you know what the funny thing is? the only situation you would ever see this in is Expanded and who plays final triumph in expanded???

Or in Open

[simplegarak]

you know what the funny thing is? the only situation you would ever see this in is Expanded and who plays final triumph in expanded???

Or in Open

One of these days I would LOVE to drop a Final Triumph on a Cirden for a win.  Oh how I grew to hate him...

[mardukra]

This seems clear to me.  If vitality is being used to resolve a skirmish 'instead' of something else we would replace each instance of that something else in the rules concerning "Resolve that skirmish."  The clarifications on Final Triumph itself and the CRD are to 'make clear' that all the other strength effects/affects are NOT to be replaced by vitality effects/affects as that is reserved for the "Resolve that skirmish" step of that particular skirmish phase.  Overwhelming strictly occurs in the "Resolve that skirmish" step.

I believe that ALL modifiers to the overwhelm requirements would apply to a skirmish being resolved by vitality.