Gimli's Armor Questions

[Crabby Imposter]

(This topic was also posted at Bag End by accident, please consolidate discussion here)

So a couple rules questions re: Gimli's Armor.  Scenario: Gimli, Bearer of Grudges is the Ring-bearer, is wearing Gimli's Armor and Gimli's Helm.

Scenario 1: he loses a skirmish to a minion with Damage +1.  I use the text of Gimli's Armor to prevent a wound.  Does Gimli's Helm prevent the second wound as well, or do I have to Gimli's Armor a second time?

Scenario 2: opponent plays a Nazgul, followed by Morgul Brute (giving me the choice of wounding Gimli, or adding a burden).  Can I choose to wound Gimli (so I don't have to add a burden), and then prevent that wound with Gimli's Armor?

[chompers]

Scenario 1 - Gimli's Helm stops him taking more than one wound (thus negating the damage bonus). Then Gimli's Armor triggers as a response preventing the one wound provided you have intiative and discard two cards - So as I see it Gimli takes no wounds.

I can see the other side though - it depends on timing -

Scenario 2 - I would say yes as it is a response to the wound (although then the wound wasn't placed so perhaps you revert back to the burden?)

Arrgghh - i am getting stuck in a loop here. I thought the answer was obvious until i looked deeper into the problem.

I don't know - anyone else?

[TheJord]

For Scenario 2, if you choose to prevent an effect, then prevent that effect, the original effect will still occur ie Gimli will take a burden.

Scenario 1, one wound, as per Gimli's Helm, preventable by Gimli's Armor.

[Elgar]

For scenario 1:
You take wounds 1 at a time.  Since you prevent the first one with the armor, Gimli still hasnt taken a wound, so Gimli's helm doesnt stop the second.  You'd have to use the armor twice for Gimli to not be wounded.

[Crabby Imposter]

I think I agree with TheJord's take on Scenario 2, but I'm still confused about Scenario 1.  Can anyone cite anything from the rules that would support one interpretation or another?

[Thranduil]

I think I agree with TheJord's take on Scenario 2, but I'm still confused about Scenario 1.  Can anyone cite anything from the rules that would support one interpretation or another?

I answered this in the other thread, right?

TheJord is right. The Helm stops Gimli from taking more than 1 wound, but if you prevent the first wound, he still hasn't taken a wound, so the second one sticks.

[Elessar's Socks]

I think I agree with TheJord's take on Scenario 2, but I'm still confused about Scenario 1.  Can anyone cite anything from the rules that would support one interpretation or another?

A "prevent" entry in the Comprehensive Rulebook would be helpful, but I think "response" hits pretty close:

Some responses are performed when a described situation is "about to" happen. Typically, only one such response can be performed in a given situation, because its effect will "prevent" that situation or replace it with another effect "instead."

Gimli's Armor prevents the situation where Gimli takes a wound, so Gimli's Helm can't stop him from taking wounds yet.

Scenario 2:

If something happens to prevent one effect which in turn would have prevented a second effect, the second effect is performed.
Morgul Destroyer is played.("When you play this minion, you may spot a Nazgûl to add 2 threats. The Free Peoples player may wound the Ring-bearer to prevent this.") The Free Peoples player wounds the Ring-bearer to prevent the threats from being added. The Free Peoples player then discards Sapling of the White Tree. ("Response: If a Man is about to take a wound, discard this artifact to prevent that.") Because Sapling has prevented the effect (a wound) that would have prevented Morgul Destroyer's effect, the threats are now added.

[Elessar's Socks]

Scenario 1: he loses a skirmish to a minion with Damage +1.  I use the text of Gimli's Armor to prevent a wound.  Does Gimli's Helm prevent the second wound as well, or do I have to Gimli's Armor a second time?

Gimli's Helm says he can only take 1 wound per skirmish phase. Because you prevented the first wound with the armor, he hasn't taken a wound yet, and so the second wound sticks.

but you should still be able to prevent the second wound with the armor.  The helm doesn't prevent anything, it modifies how much damage a companion can take.  I don't understand why you can't use the armor to prevent the single wound your about to take when it clearly says, if your about to take a wound prevent it by discarding 2 cards

You can use Gimli's Armor to prevent the second wound as well. I think Thran's point is that Gimli does have a second wound to deal with if the first is prevented.

[Crabby Imposter]

Thanks guys.

[hrcho]

There is a difference between prevent wounds and cannot take wounds. Gimli's Helm allows only 1 wound to be assigned to Gimli. If a minion with damage bonus wins a skirmish against Gimli, only 1 wound is assigned to Gimli and that one wound can be prevented with Gimli's Armor. No more wounds can be assigned to him so no more prevention via Gimli's Armor is necessary. 

[legolas3333]

but if he can take no more than one, and one hasn't been assigned yet, then he must take another right?

[TheJord]

Remember there is a distinction between

-Prevent
-Takes no more than 1

Gimli's Helm is negating any damage bonuses. If he was fighting Gollum, and he used Not This Time. Gimli takes a wound, but prevents it with Gimli's Armor. If he then loses, are you saying he would take a wound, because he hasnt taken 1 yet?

[legolas3333]

yes, he still hasn't taken a wound so he hasn't filled the 1 wound only right?

[TheJord]

Preventing is effectively allowing the costs of an action to be paid without receiving the effects. I cant agree because the action of wounding has happened, without the wound being placed as it was prevented.

[jdizzy001]

Wait, where is this going... if the shadow player uses a whirling strike against gimli, and the dwarf prevents it with his armor, then loses the skirmish, does gimli take a wound since he is wearing the helm and can take but one wound during a skirmish?  In that case I would be inclined to believe he would take a wound. However, if he loses a skirmish against a dmg +1 uruk his helm would negate the 1 extra damage and then the freeps player could discard 2 cards to prevent the other.