Secret Sentinels and such alike

[Smeagollum]

Hi all,

I understand from Gccg that a lot of people dont know the rules exactly concerning Secret Sentinels and card such alike (for example: Company of Archers). Please note that you need to forfill all actions you can do untill you cant.

So if there is an orc on table and somebody plays secret sentinels and he only spot 1 shadow condition and he has conditions on his own freeps then he needs to discard a condition of his own freeps. Or if there's no shadow condition then the active freepplayer even have to discard 2 freepsconditions (if he has one or 2):

Game Text: Maneuver: Exert an Elf ally to discard a condition (or 2 conditions if you spot an Orc).

[tristelune]

That's true...

[Elessar's Socks]

Just noticed Secret Sentinels says "you spot" and not "you can spot"... doesn't this mean you can choose not to meet the conditional effect, even if an Orc is in play?

In any case, Secret Sentinels and Company of Archers don't limit themselves to Shadow conditions, so yes, you can choose to / may be forced to discard your own condition(S).

[Smeagollum]

Just noticed Secret Sentinels says "you spot" and not "you can spot"... doesn't this mean you can choose not to meet the conditional effect, even if an Orc is in play?

Nope; it means if you spot an orc 2 conditions have to be discarded.

[TheJord]

Its like You Do Not Know Fear, it has the same requirement, you keep discarding conditions, FP or Shadow, for each you spot

[Smeagollum]

Well what I think is strange that somebody told me that King89 and Olorin thought that if secret sentinels is played and there are no shadow conditions but there are freepsconditions in the active freepplayers area that those not have to be discarded. I think they didnt read the card well or misunderstood what was told to them?

[Elessar's Socks]

Just noticed Secret Sentinels says "you spot" and not "you can spot"... doesn't this mean you can choose not to meet the conditional effect, even if an Orc is in play?

Nope; it means if you spot an orc 2 conditions have to be discarded.

If you spot... but as I read it, Sentinels is not forcing you to spot an Orc. Compare the wording to Lothlorien Guides.

[Tbiesty]

Just noticed Secret Sentinels says "you spot" and not "you can spot"... doesn't this mean you can choose not to meet the conditional effect, even if an Orc is in play?

That is correct.  You can choose whether or not to spot an Orc since it just says "if you spot".  If it would have said "if you can spot", then you have to spot an Orc if there is one.

[Smeagollum]

See what you means:

or 2 conditions if you spot an Orc

So if active freeps plays secret sentinels and spots an orc and no ahadow conditions, but he has 2 freepscond. on his own then he would have to discard at least one of them (ofcourse you can say that you don't spot an orc), because you'll have to do all actions. Sorry guys there´s no escape to it:) still have to discard a condition of his own.

Anyway you cant play secret sentinels for no effect if you dont spot shadow conditions, while you have conditions in your own freeps.

[Tbiesty]

See what you means:

or 2 conditions if you spot an Orc

So if active freeps plays secret sentinels and spots an orc and no ahadow conditions, but he has 2 freepscond. on his own then he would have to discard at least one of them (ofcourse you can say that you don't spot an orc), because you'll have to do all actions. Sorry guys there´s no escape to it:) still have to discard a condition of his own.

Anyway you cant play secret sentinels for no effect if you dont spot shadow conditions, while you have conditions in your own freeps.

Yep, you got it now!  You must discard one condition if there is a condition in play.  You do have the choice whether or not to spot an Orc in play to discard two.

[Yanko Markovic]

Completely off-topic, but those sentinels don't seem to be secret at all actually...

[Smeagollum]

Completely off-topic, but those sentinels don't seem to be secret at all actually...

Now you got the secret;)

[Yanko Markovic]

You mean like, the true sentinels are BEHIND the trees? D:

[hrcho]

Just noticed Secret Sentinels says "you spot" and not "you can spot"... doesn't this mean you can choose not to meet the conditional effect, even if an Orc is in play?

That is correct.  You can choose whether or not to spot an Orc since it just says "if you spot".  If it would have said "if you can spot", then you have to spot an Orc if there is one.

I disagree. I don't think you can choose not to spot an orc. If there is an orc in play, you have to spot it, can't just close your eyes and say: "I see no orcs? Do you?".  Besides, there was already a topic on this and it was concluded that you have to discard 2 conditions from play if you spot an orc and it doesn't matter if one or both are Free Peoples conditions.

[Tbiesty]

I disagree. I don't think you can choose not to spot an orc. If there is an orc in play, you have to spot it, can't just close your eyes and say: "I see no orcs? Do you?".

This excerpt from the rulebook is how I defend the position that you are only forced to spot something in play if the wording is "you can spot":

Normally, you don't have to spot all the cards in play that meet the requirement if you don't want to.
If a card says, "for each Elf you spot" and there are 2 Elves in play (and active), you may choose to spot 2 Elves, 1 Elf, or none.
However, if a card says, "you can spot," that means you don't have a choice and you have to spot anything and everything that meets the requirement.
"While you can spot The Balrog, skip the archery phase" means you can't make a choice (it either works or it doesn't).