Don't wanna make polemics or something but

[hrcho]

He gave us free will so that we can truly love Him. And, in the end, it's a choice one has to make for themselves, and because it's a choice, no one in #$&*@! can ever say God sent them there because it was their choice to not accept him that got him into #$&*@!.

So, you're saying, that if I abide by all the rules that God gave men (mind you, those are all pretty much common sense rules) except those that proclaim that God as the one and the only and I just don't accept that God as my lord and savior, I'm going to #$&*@!? Yeah, sure, that's free will.

We are given many choices, but only one will grant us salvation, while any other will condemn us for eternity. It's like: Say my name, #$&*@!, or die!, only worse.

[sickofpalantirs]

So, you're saying, that if I abide by all the rules that God gave men (mind you, those are all pretty much common sense rules) except those that proclaim that God as the one and the only and I just don't accept that God as my lord and savior, I'm going to #$&*@!? Yeah, sure, that's free will.

Do you abide by them?  Let's take the 10 commandments for instance...have you ever lied?  Dishonored your father and mother? Coveted your neighbor's wife? (purely for example )
If you have followed all the rules God gave men than you don't need salvation.

[hrcho]

Do you abide by them?  Let's take the 10 commandments for instance...have you ever lied?  Dishonored your father and mother? Coveted your neighbor's wife? (purely for example )
If you have followed all the rules God gave men than you don't need salvation.

So, everyone sins and everyone needs salvation. Also, all the sins are redeemable. What's the point of those rules then?

[jdizzy001]

One important thing to remember about free will is that we can not chose the consequences of our actions.  I can choose to stick my hand in a fire, but I can't choose whether or not i will be burned.  Likewise, with the commandments of God (or man-made law for that matter) we can choose to obey or disobey, but we can't choose the consequences.  If I am caught by the poe-poe smoking dope (in the U.S.), I will be fined and possibly imprisoned.  If I'm caught speeding, I will be cited.

Soooo, applying that to Divine law, if I chose to be disobedient I will be judged accordingly at the final judgment.  Mind you, this is all based on christian philosaphy, so if one is not a christian this makes no sense since the non-christian individual would not believe in a final judgement in which their actions were judged against divine law.

It all boils down to this: We must learn to exercise our free will in a godly fashion.  We are gods in embreo as it says in the bible, and if we let our passions guide us and we never learn to dominate ourself we will never become very good co-heirs with christ.  All the rules are there to help us learn how to govern OURSELVES.

[hrcho]

All the rules are pretty much common sense. The rules are there so that punishment can be carried out and the punisher can say: I told you so. Just a form of control.

[legolas3333]

nice comment Jdizzy

hrcho before i respond i want to know what you mean by free will cause i get the impression that we're thinking of two different things

when I say free will i mean the responsibility and privilege of choosing our own actions and not having them pre-ordained for us... is that what you mean too?

[Kev-La]

As an example of a so-called "universal truth"...
1 + 1 = 2

Right? Of course it is! One added to one must always equal two! A universal truth!



WRONG!

One man meets one woman and they engage in sexual intercourse (marital or otherwise). Nine months later, a baby is born.
Thus, 1 + 1 = 3!
And, of course, if twins are born, 1 + 1 = 4!

My advice to anyone seeking to be wise... be very wary of 'universal truths'

[legolas3333]

In base 10 math, 1+1 always equals two, that my friend is a universal truth

but I get what you are saying and why you would believe it even though I disagree

[Kev-La]

In base 10 math, 1+1 always equals two, that my friend is a universal truth

I would call it "a truth upon which we can, in all practicality, depend". I would not call it "a universal truth". That way, my friend, if a day arrives when, in Base 10 mathematics, 1 + 1 = pi, I can enjoy telling you "I told you so!"

[Gil-Estel]

That is why I say that we should always be modest. Socrates, not the Brasilian football player (true FOOTball for all you sportshating Americans -note the word true I use in the topic-), but the Greek philosopher, said: all I know is that I know nothing. All questions in life raise new ones. Also as Christians, we need to be modest, we need to be totally modest. Not only because the simple reason we have been granted grace, so we can't bring anything to the table, but also the simple given of 1900 years of debate about how to follow Christ, how to interpret the Bible.

The dutch word for faith is translated as: assuming/accepting something to be true.

[hrcho]

when I say free will i mean the responsibility and privilege of choosing our own actions and not having them pre-ordained for us... is that what you mean too?

Yes, there is free will and that is what I think free will is. However, I am trying to point out that God as Christians represent him cannot be good in any sense of the word. IT is tyrannical at the very least, not to mention it has serious complexes and should see a god shrink. That is no perfect god, that is a human being. And it's not god who created humans in his image, but humans who created god in their image. Your god simply has too many human problems to be god. That is how Christians represent him.

As I said, I can accept the possibility of existence of a higher being, but that is something we couldn't possibly manage to describe, because we would describe as we would describe another human and that in itself is failure. So any sort of "god-given" rules, ultimatums, conditions and what not are human made and thus not perfect, most certainly not absolute and will under no circumstance bring you any sort of salvation.

Your free will, on the other hand, might. Instead of looking for salvation in the life beyond, seek salvation in this life. So many people are pretty much giving up on this life and just surviving enough so they can live prosperously in the next life of which they have no proof it even exists.

That, I believe, is fear of living, of making mistakes, of using that "god-given" free will and so many people will lead a miserable life in hope that their next one will be so much better for their misery in this one.

[Gil-Estel]

But Hrcho, the problem I see is that you are trying to get a grasp of the Christian God. You judge of Him, being tyranical, having human issues. But like you said, to descripe a higerh being, it is flawed. To judge a higher being, well, that too is flawed I assume.

Furthermore, people who are trying to survive long enough to make it into a future that is perfect, well, they haven't understood what being a Christian is all about. You have to make an effort. Not that the effort it self will make my faith work, or will bring redemption, but you need it. Just as much as I need to put effort in my marriage. Being married doesn't say much about the content of the marriage. If I don't put an effort in saying to my wife she is beautiful once in a while...which she is obviously, and helping her with stuff, spending time together, being sincere interested in her life, sharing my thoughts, my hopes, my dreams, my troubles, my lack of action can, and probably will cause marriage problems.
If I turn it around though, even with putting an effort in my marriage doesn't give me any guarantee it will work though.

Living in faith should be about being aware that the world we live in, indeed needs redemption. I for myself, if I look at the world, can not imagine this is it. Again, no logic's, pure faith. I cannot accept that children are dying due to lack of clean water, medicine or food. I can not accept people are freezing to death, being lonely, rape others, kill others for the sake of personal gain. I can not accept that people are so heartless that they gain millions without looking out for others.

Due to this, I hope, I want the Bible to be true. Cause this book says that people are acting like this and that the content of this book is saving me. Well, I can watch God, I can look at some of the actions described in the bible and ask why? Thing is I will not grasp it, I will not understand it, but someday I might.

Christian life should not be about fear, but should be about compassion, love for other individuals, serving others, and indeed hope for a better future.....

[ununtrium]

Christian life should not be about fear, but should be about compassion, love for other individuals, serving others, and indeed hope for a better future.....

I could not agree with you more, GE. However, some people never seem to get around to reading the New Testament...

[hrcho]

But Hrcho, the problem I see is that you are trying to get a grasp of the Christian God. You judge of Him, being tyranical, having human issues. But like you said, to descripe a higerh being, it is flawed. To judge a higher being, well, that too is flawed I assume.

I made no judgment upon god, but upon the Christian representation of god.

Living in faith should be about being aware that the world we live in, indeed needs redemption. I for myself, if I look at the world, can not imagine this is it. Again, no logic's, pure faith. I cannot accept that children are dying due to lack of clean water, medicine or food. I can not accept people are freezing to death, being lonely, rape others, kill others for the sake of personal gain. I can not accept that people are so heartless that they gain millions without looking out for others.

I have no problem with faith. In fact, I endorse it. Faith is good. But I am trying to show here that The Bible is flawed as it is human made and thus should be read as any other book. This is how I read books from which I hope to learn something and to make myself better than I am:

I read it once, more or less superficially so to learn the contents of the book.
If I like the contents and see that there indeed might be something there I could use, I read the second time with much more understanding, slowly digesting word by word, chapter by chapter.
I leave the book aside.
In a few months or years or whichever time you see fit, I read it again and I try compare my perspective from reading it then and reading it now.

So, I explore myself through reading books and I believe that is what you should do also. Not read the Bible, take it is at is or even worse, take only what suits your arguments best and leave it aside to collect dust.

Christian life should not be about fear, but should be about compassion, love for other individuals, serving others, and indeed hope for a better future.....

I believe that every life should be like that and not just Christian. Except maybe for the part of serving others. I need no Bible, no god and most certainly no Church to tell me that and I think no one needs them.

[Gil-Estel]

If indeed the Bible had a pure human origin I couldn't agree with you more. Because, then I would believe in a God created by people, and I would be pathetic. I mean, how allmighty would a God be that is created by people?
And that is where our ways split. Of course I see that the Bible is flawed, when it comes to certain statements, certain time references etc. In that way it is indeed a human book. But...if I ask 30 witnesses to describe to me how the accident went, I will get at least 20 different stories, some might be flawed compared to others...but does it make the accident less real?
Also, I understand that this example is a bit flawed, cause it deals with something you can empiric experience, where as God you can't.

That is why I believe in God as source of my faith, not the Bible. If the Bible would have been my source of faith, it would be something you could reason, since the Bible would have been the 'proof' of my faith. But since you pointed out the flaws in the Bible with that article, or at least show that there are things to consider, my faith would have been not that strong, least to say.

I didn't mean my part of Christian life as being moraly superiour to those that don't believe. But I think you will understand, since this whole topic is rather understanding, well at least most people are.

Oh, and to sum it all up. First comes faith in God, than what I can read about him in the Bible, and trying to learn how to read it, what to learn from it and reflecting my own life according to it. Then comes in my opinion church which can help, but of course is flawed as being a human institute.