Preliminary Discussion: Lady Redeemed

[Imrahil]

I play a number of different variations, although my personal favourites are elven archery, and Glimpse of Fate/ Forearmed mashups.  Elven discard is something I enjoy, but don't play seriously.  I lack the sauron shadow to pair it with, and I would like my friends to keep playing with me. :-)

Therefore I personally am in favor of an errata to Galadriel, not an outright ban.  I want cultural reinforcement and a harsher cost for her ability, but I still want playability.  Decipher's designers were mortals such as ourselves, not gods in whose footsteps we should fear to tread.  Let us recreate Galadriel LR in our own image, as the TLHH player community, and realize a better, more balanced game.

Within reason of course. :-)

[Tbiesty]

Therefore I personally am in favor of an errata to Galadriel, not an outright ban.  I want cultural reinforcement and a harsher cost for her ability, but I still want playability.  Decipher's designers were mortals such as ourselves, not gods in whose footsteps we should fear to tread.  Let us recreate Galadriel LR in our own image, as the TLHH player community, and realize a better, more balanced game.

I agree with what you say here.

This is the errata that I've been using that has brought balance:

Galadriel, Lady Redeemed
While Galadriel is in your starting
fellowship, her twilight cost is -1.
Fellowship or Regroup: Exert Galadriel
twice and discard an event from hand to
discard a Shadow condition or Shadow possession.

The card as printed should be banned. However, once players on TLHH get a chance to playtest an errata and realize that it does work, we can bring Galadriel, Lady Redeemed back with an errata.  Even adding the errata to GCCG is a simple update.

[Imrahil]

Hmmm...so instead of cultural reinforcement you've decreased her splashability by increasing her cost.  An interesting idea, although I would prefer to keep her cost at zero in the starting fellowship and instead require a "spot" of two other elven companions.

Both ideas work I think, but I'd love to hear what methodologies you used to arrive at your current errata.

[ramolnar]

In the Corsair deck, the strongest card is not Castamir of Umbar. It's Corsair Marauder, because that's the card that takes things away. It makes playing possessions extremely difficult. There's a reason the strongest beatdown deck AND the strongest swarm deck in Movie Block play Marauder. 
Elves have a choice without Lady Redeemed - archery! Intentionally, Corsairs were built with no wound prevention. But the Marauder strips all the Elven Bows. The same thing applies to other decks. The best decks against Corsairs run few to no possessions: Knights, Gandalf/Gondor, big Elven events. My tourney version of Knights runs just 3 Gondor Bow, and might run even less and more Men of Numenor just because of the Marauder. It defines the format.

Galadriel, Lady Redeemed causes similar problems: she makes a lot of Shadow sides not viable. LR is the best deck and defines the format. It makes it very difficult to play any deck that uses Shadow conditions or possessions. There are still ways to oppose it, like Southron archery which plays at most Rallying Call in the condition area. Low-cost Isengard Orc swarm isn't a good deck, but it attacks one of the other weaknesses, slow expensive companion setup.

Because she shuts down too many sides, I believe Galadriel needs a ban or errata. Imrahil's suggestion isn't enough, because the Best Deck (big Elf event) remains the best deck. If anything, it makes it worse, because it means one should play big Elves or Last Alliance. Tbiesty's errata would do it, I guess. Have you tested removing all the starting fellowship cost and requiring just one exertion? That would be my first guess at "balance".

[Tbiesty]

Tbiesty's errata would do it, I guess. Have you tested removing all the starting fellowship cost and requiring just one exertion? That would be my first guess at "balance".

With the ability to heal her with cards like Elrond, Venerable Lord or Shadow Between, requiring just one exertion didn't require enough "investment", and still allowed her to be easily used multiple times.  Two exertions fit the bill nicely, plus making it easier for the Shadow player to prevent her from using her ability.  Changing the starting cost to just -1, allowed you to still start her in an elf-centered deck, but now only with help from one other elf, so she might have to actually fight.

Hope that helps.

[Kralik]

Imrahil, are you seeing abundant Corsairs on GCCG or in your local playing group?

Yes, Corsair Maurader is rough too, but I still think Tubby takes the cake. Imagine what he is with a Raider Halberd: Str. 22 and fierce for (SEVEN?!) twilight. And loads of token reinforcement. Compare with other minions of similar cost (The Witch King, Lurtz, etc) and those with a higher cost (Uruk Vanguard or The Balrog, for example, which both have specific play requirements) and I think the issue is clear.

But that's beside the point. LR still needs the boot.

[Inspire]

With the ability to heal her with cards like Elrond, Venerable Lord or Shadow Between, requiring just one exertion didn't require enough "investment", and still allowed her to be easily used multiple times.  Two exertions fit the bill nicely, plus making it easier for the Shadow player to prevent her from using her ability.  Changing the starting cost to just -1, allowed you to still start her in an elf-centered deck, but now only with help from one other elf, so she might have to actually fight.

Hope that helps.

There is an opportunity cost associated with using cards like Elrond, Venerable Lord and Shadow Between to heal her just like there is an opportunity cost for players who would use 4 copies of her if her cost reduction is removed. Even one exertion creates wounds (and a need for healing) where there were none before, thus preventing the player from healing other key companions that they might have when using pre-errata Lady Redeemed.

[Imrahil]

I disagree with ramolnar in that I believe a double-exertion is an adequate cost increase without removing LR's ability to start with two other elves.  The big elf event deck suffers accordingly because it can no longer cycle events through LR freely, or easily discard several possessions/conditions in the same turn.  Also, a two elf spotting requirement prevents LR from being "splashed" in with other cultures, which I believe was one of the major complaints in prior posts.

I also disagree with Inspire that a one-exertion cost is an adequate errata.  Even if a player is forced to pack four copies and play her outside the starting fellowship, the other copies provide easy healing. 

Kralik:  I see Corsairs a lot in my local playing group, mostly because my group has limited cards and therefore limited deck options.  I agree with you that pound for pound, the Castamir is much superior to comparable minions, even if the comparable minions tend to have the potential for better toys (and therefore might deserve higher initial costs).

[ramolnar]

With the ability to heal her with cards like Elrond, Venerable Lord or Shadow Between, requiring just one exertion didn't require enough "investment", and still allowed her to be easily used multiple times.  Two exertions fit the bill nicely, plus making it easier for the Shadow player to prevent her from using her ability.  Changing the starting cost to just -1, allowed you to still start her in an elf-centered deck, but now only with help from one other elf, so she might have to actually fight.

Hope that helps.

I haven't tested errata, so thanks for the reply. Would you even want to start with her, then? Wouldn't it be better to play 3 or 4 for the healing? I'd rather start Glorfindel and Legolas Greenleaf.

I'm also not strongly in favor of my suggestion; it comes from memory. I've only played her in big Elves and Last Alliance. Do people really splash? Dwarves don't want her - Blood Runs Chill is fine. Gandalf/Gondor would rather run on-color events. Knights don't care. What else?

What was Decipher thinking in making her free anyway?

My best guess, given the era? It was a late change to counter Corsairs. Corsairs were by far the "best" deck after set 8, leading to a lot of negative complaints. At the time, my tourney deck started Derufin and ran Gandalf for Roll of Thunder, and that's still barely enough. She does neuter Corsairs.

[Thranduil]

The easy answer to the problem then, is to provide LR with cultural reinforcement.  Unfortunately, I think most players will agree with me when I say that cultural reinforcement alone is not enough.  The fact that "Castamir only goes with Corsairs" didn't stop everyone and their mother from playing Corsairs back in the day, just as cultural reinforcement on LR will just encourage people to play elves.

There always have to be top tier decks, and sometimes there is one deck that dominates a format (for example, Jund in MTG before Shards of Alara rotated out). Corsairs is one of those decks. And that's fine! (Of course, MTG does try and avoid this if possible because a wider range of decks is more interesting, but this is always going to happen occasionally).

Obviously a game which isn't out of print which keeps releasing new sets and rotates older ones solves this problem just with time, as Corsairs would rotate out of a standard environment and new cards would be added to an extended environment and the dominating decks will change. So I suppose the problem here is that (barring TLHH V-cards) the format is never going to change. That's a shame, but it still doesn't make LR any less ridiculous!

Thran

[Ringbearer]

Corsairs has still difficulty vs elves, especially late game. Elves dont need posessions to tacke corsairs if they have forearmed and cirdan. Its not an easy matchup, but it is dobale. Also, corairs lack any form of wound protection, so you double more easily vs castamir and then enact the movie (extended) and shoot castamir with greenleaf.

I was at the EC in Utrecht when they spoiled LR to a few dAgents, and the general consensus was: broken.

LR might be suitable check against corsairs, but she neuters: moria, old school sauron, trackers, dunland, besiegers, uruk archery, berserkers.... and prolly a few that I forgot. Het impact on the gamescene is too big. One card should not lock down 5 or 6 strategies.

[Gil-Estel]

Amen

[Imrahil]

Let's all have a moment of silence for rubbercarp...followed by the public humiliation of whoever he's playing against...

I guess we have to settle the basic question then:  Are we in favour of an outright ban or just an errata?

I would propose that Kralik remove her from GCCG as a temporary solution, but I fear that such an action might inevitably become a permanent solution.  As I am in favor of errata, I hesitate to "shoot myself in the foot" so to speak.

[Tbiesty]

I guess we have to settle the basic question then:  Are we in favour of an outright ban or just an errata?

I would propose that Kralik remove her from GCCG as a temporary solution, but I fear that such an action might inevitably become a permanent solution.  As I am in favor of errata, I hesitate to "shoot myself in the foot" so to speak.

There are several other cards like Mordor Fiend, Gondorian Captain, Memories of Darkness, etc. that are in this group as well.  A small fix, and they're back in play.

Therefore, I propose that she is banned for now.  Then sometime in the near future the rules team conduct a discussion like this to address erratas for these cards so they can join back into the card pool.  Even if "Movie" format keeps these cards on an X-list, the "Extended Movie" format that I'd like to add to GCCG would allow the errata'd cards back.  That way players have a choice.

Is that a fair solution?

[Gil-Estel]

Maybe, in the future, each one of us can have their own deck validator....Running by an opponent's deck: illegal! Why? You play Saruman's Power. You play LR!

But seriously, I suggest we be gentlemen about it at first and wait for a sollution. Don't forget to ask first when ever playing a moviegame. Do you play LR, if yes, sorry, I don't play. Allthough LR can't though my LttG, mhuahaha.